Tell me about bicycling

[mostapha]

I don't think I've ever been ...... off about coming up on a group ride…even before I cycled. I just found another route.

Where in NC do you live? I'm not sure this isn't another case of escalation of BS in small towns that just woulnd't happen anywhere else.

In case you can't tell……the "charm" of small towns is lost on me……I think they're death traps that lead to drug use, violence, and a complete lack of empathy.

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

It is pretty awesome to see sooo many people in one place, but I'm starting to sense that maybe I'm just a jerk, lol! Scaring cyclist just for fun?! Haha! Although, I have done the suprised/excited "hello!" or "hi!"with weird reactions. Now I do that to runners... LoL!

 

[Wolf308]

So you're suggestion is, ride in a really long straight line? That would look amazing, but drivers would still have to give them a lot of room.

Or maybe if you are a bike group try not riding in rush hour traffic. Or pick a road that isn't the main road through the area. It's safer for you. If you choose to do it, don't go online and complain about someone in the group being hit by a car, or the issues you have with cars on the road, or people yelling at you out of windows, high beaming, etc. And don't cry "share the road!" when you don't. I'm certainly not going to stop anyone from getting in groups of 30 to 50 bikes and riding in rush hour traffic down the main road (which, btw, is only two lanes as it is), but suck up the issues you get because of it, including being run over. I ride, too. I ride with others. I choose not to use my bike or the "green movement" as an excuse to inconvenience the rest of the world. At some point we need to stop and realize when we're causing our own grief. People want to go home from work. They want to see their families and have dinner and maybe rest or go to the gym before going to bed and doing it all over again. Why is it so hard for large groups of cyclists to just go out at 6:30 instead of 5:30? Or choose the next road over that is the same distance and terrain but not as heavily traveled? Because cars should share the road? Yes, they should. But so should bikes. And 50 bikes taking up the entire road and backing traffic up into the next county isn't "sharing."

 

[Wolf308]

I don't think I've ever been ...... off about coming up on a group ride…even before I cycled. I just found another route.

Where in NC do you live? I'm not sure this isn't another case of escalation of BS in small towns that just woulnd't happen anywhere else.

In case you can't tell……the "charm" of small towns is lost on me……I think they're death traps that lead to drug use, violence, and a complete lack of empathy.

I never saw it in the city when I lived up North. I do live in a small town down here, but it's a small town with out of control growth, so there's a lot of housing developments and such. And finding another route is great... if there is one. Many places people need to get to - like housing developments - don't have many alternatives. And around here the cops are beginning to go after the cyclists in groups larger than 15 who are out on main roads between 5:00 and 6:30.

And yeah, sure. Maybe it's just me. Maybe something is wrong with me because I think it is wrong to completely congest the area to make a point when people just want to go home, when you have a million other options aside from doing that. It's not like this area is completely full of biking trails that stretch 20 to 40 miles or anything, or smaller roads that don't go right through the busiest roads in town. Silly me for considering other people and their own lives. This isn't a huge metropolis with 60 ways to everywhere, public transportation, and limited options of cyclists. This entire town is set up for cyclists, and they tried to set it up to be safe and keep traffic flowing at the same time. But at some point you have to stop and realize that your right to cycle on the roads does not trump the rights of everyone else. We have MANY large groups of cyclists down here that meet along the way. Most of them choose to go out at times other than rush hour, or if they can't, they use little traveled roads or one of the million cycling trails instead. It's only a chosen few groups who ride in rush hour traffic across the entire road.

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

LoL! I don't live in your state... And I'm not in the anti-car cycle gang. Calm down. Hahaha!

 

[Wolf308]

Well good. Have fun riding in traffic. Goodnight!

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

I'm pretty sure I'm the one who doesn't ride in traffic, as I have mentioned my lack of trust in drivers. Did you recently quit analogs? Sounds like someone needs to increase their nic level... Muahahaha!

 

[mostapha]

Maybe something is wrong with me because I think it is wrong to completely congest the area to make a point when people just want to go home, when you have a million other options aside from doing that.

Right. But sometimes it takes being a jerk to get your point across. I can imagine worse protests.

But at some point you have to stop and realize that your right to cycle on the roads does not trump the rights of everyone else.

Actually, legally…they kind of do. They're a vehicle…with all the rights of vehicles. They don't have to ride at a reasonable speed unless there's a posted minimum on the road. And depending on exactly how the laws are written, they might be able to ride in clumps or mutli-file lines, on the lane dividers, etc..

If they're blocking traffic and breaking laws of any kind……then frak them.

If they're actually doing it–as you claim–out of complete disregard for other road users in a town that's well set up for bikes, then frak them.

If they're actually protesting things that I consider "normal" for cyclists to deal with in small towns (inconsiderate drivers who think bikes should ride off to the side or pass them across double-yellows or–at worst–torture them like my ex-girlfriend's dad), then I think your town needs to stop being a worthless hell-hole like the rest of suburban middle America.

Either way…you and your town need to look into what actually motivated it before passing judgement. I really don't have enough information to figure it out from here. But because of my obvious and disclosed prejudice, my default stance is to side with the cyclists……just because I hate small towns.

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

Well good. Have fun riding in traffic. Goodnight!

Maybe join them one time and see what all the hype is really about so you don't get ideas of why other people would (when we really don't), or maybe just get more info so you can avoid them next time. I mean, you say "they" can take another road, and all that, but if you see traffic, why would you go that way anyway? And it's easier to see them at 5:30pm rather than 6:30.

But maybe an increase in nic would help you out...

 

[nanovapr]

Hi, I'm back, it's been a cool weekend! Cool, as in the temps were down to only 94 deg F, down from 107 yesterday. Wolf, welcome to Road Rash. It was also cool, because I got to go to the Missouri River, near where I live, and see live blues. I am a keyboard guy that owns guitars, I did not play today. It happens every Sunday until October, they sell $1 beers (not my poison of choice), and the best part? I can trade my DIY juice for burgers with grilled onions!

I can't weigh in much, about the groups of bicyclists clogging a rush hour artery. I am a beginning bicyclist. Even if I could attain legal speeds, I would not compete with with car traffic, because I know I can never accelerate with the cages. I spent most of my life ten miles away from the nearest Pepsi machine (that was a town of 500). I now live 17 miles from a town of 110K where I work. I like this town because it is a college burg, and has lots of good stuff going on, and it's low on crime.

I don't hate many things, but inconsiderate drivers of any sort are at the top of my list. For 30 years I drove vehicles on gravel roads, because that was where I lived and worked. My dogs would bark when a "new car" came down the road, they remained quiet when my neighbors' vehicles would go by. Now, I drive an interstate every day to get to work.

The interstate is what scares me the most. Everything happens so fast @ 80 mph (morning rush).

20-something drivers texting while hitting the guard-rails.
Guys shaving while crossing the line.
Ladies putting on makeup while driving 20 mph below the traffic flow.
Truckers wired on speed. (the real stuff, not the convenience store variant) with their eyes up open wide.

Catching up here, mostapha, when I sequenced and played everything myself (with visiting "real guitarists" and vocalists) I was syncing a computer (this was pre-IBM) to tape with SMPTE. I enjoyed switching up MIDI channels on playback> "hmm, maybe that flute solo might be a better Log Drum Solo". It varied from backwards tape stuff to trance (before trance was a genre) to almost dance music. I cut up 6-bit Jimmy Page samples from Led Zep II, had a real guitar player work with the block chords, and made it work! I am a dorky white guy that can't dance, so I may not be a good judge of that one.

I've been playing live for 40+ years, I go in three year cycles. I have performed for six months with no weekends off (and practiced every Wednesday). I get tired of the professional drunks in weekend bars, and the band drama that often emerges, then I quit in disgust. THEN? I go to see other bands. Someone calls me with a good proposition. Lather, rinse, repeat.

When I play live with a band? That is magic stuff. The blues jams are cool, because the teenagers are learning from the gray-beards, and vice-versa. I play mostly Hammond sounds, and Fender Rhodes sounds.

With apologies, I did not ride. The forecast is for 20 degrees cooler this week! I hope to explore new muscle groups. ow.

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

New muscle groups huh? I sometimes try new positions, and ways to incorporate different exercises while biking. Weird to describe, but sometimes I just point my toes further down and pedal out of my seat while leaning forward enough to feel like I'm going over the bars if I hit a pebble... Haha, trying to work on my triceps/pecs a little and pretend I'm climbing haha! I do that usually when I'm going against the wind. Because the wind is pretty strong here. I'm sure without the wind I'd easily fall over the bars. Sometimes in that position, I'll pedal like I'm kneeing something/someone just to get my lower abs engaged a little more.

 

[mostapha]

The interstate is what scares me the most. Everything happens so fast @ 80 mph (morning rush).

I don't mean any offense by this, but if you think rush hour happens at 80mph, you don't know rush hour. In Atlanta, rush hour means you'll be going 15mph. Every day. For hours at a time. It blows.

………When I play live with a band? That is magic stuff. The blues jams are cool, because the teenagers are learning from the gray-beards, and vice-versa. I play mostly Hammond sounds, and Fender Rhodes sounds.

Nice.

I make dance music (leaning towards deep house…kinda wanting to get into neo-soul……'cept that I'm also a white boy and that seems weird) and play blues (guitar) badly. Makes life worth living.

In other news, a friend is looking for a road bike and happens to want almost exactly what I ride……I'm seriously thinking about selling it to him and upgrading soon……might have pics of a shiny new bike soon. Sadly, it looks like Specialized is still going to come out easily ahead of everyone else for what I want (Sram Apex or Rival). I'll have to look around, though.

(nothing against Specialized…they make good bikes. I just think they're ugly as sin)

 

[nanovapr]

Here's a question? I have been learning about proper fit on a bike, and making tweaks. I would like to get a proper pro fitting, just to see how far off I am, plus, they know what they are doing! I'm doing my bike, my wife's, and a spare junker Walmart MTB I got for $20. I'm keeping it around for "guest riders". If I have some sense of confidence in that I am doing it right (or close), I'll feel better about adjusting the other bikes.

The question (finally). What should a LBS charge for a fitting?

Also, mostapha, I am a bad guitar player as well. Several years ago I was good enough to get paid as a rhythm guy in bands, but I was mostly keyboards. Last February I practiced up, and played a couple of songs on guitar with a one-shot band for a formal gig, but mostly I maintain fingers of marshmallow... It's funny, when playing keyboards, I always have a sense of what key I'm in, I know every note of every chord that I'm playing without thinking (I grew up a keyboard player). For guitar, it's all much more physical. I do NOT necessarily know alll of that on guitar at all. If I get started in the right spot, and noodle around in the pentatonic boxes, I can get by.

 

[mostapha]

It depends a lot on the LBS. And, sadly, price has nothing to do with how much they know.

I've seen fittings from "free with a new bike" to $40 to $200 depending on how they do it……up to lots of money…the kind of thing that's free if you're on a race team. And, again, there's no standard for how good they are.

I found myself reading a lot about physiology and how it applies to biking and then just playing with things. Sadly, I never got around to getting the different stem that I think I need……because I've never really had the disposable income for handlebars that wouldn't piss me off (I hate ergo bars with a passion……classic circular drops all the way) and wouldn't be significantly heavier than what I already have.

So, you're really talking about a very few things: saddle height, saddle position (front to back), saddle angle, stem length, your bars, and the rotation of your bars within the stem.

My honest suggestion is to just play with them. It's really hard to break things if you have a clue how to use tools. Most seat posts will adjust height and have markings for the "don't go higher than this because it'll break" level as well as Front/Back position and angle. If your doesn't, buy a new one. All stems allow the bars to rotate. The length of the stem is something you can guess at…just get everything else right and if you feel like you're reaching out into space like superman or compressed, buy the next size shorter/longer and exchange it if it's not enough or (somehow) worse.

Basically…you want to be comfortable and balanced with a comfortable amount of "weight" on your hands. You should be able to balance without your hands on the bars without slipping off or falling over forwards/backwards. If you're a guy, you probably don't want the front of your saddle pointed up at all (mine is dead level)……IHNFC how that works with girl parts (as opposed to guy parts). Plus, if you ever climb/sprint out of the saddle or (off road) need to stand up to absorb shocks or balance……or just when you start off, if it's tipped up you can catch your shorts on it…which will probably make you crash.

Legs pretty much straight at the bottom of the pedal travel, but you don't want to be able to lock your knees with your foot parallel to the ground……but how close you can get to that depends a good bit on exactly how you're built.

People say your back should be straight when you ride……but that has more to do with exactly how your spine & back muscles are built than anything else……and a lot of very good riders have been ignoring that for years.

Stem length tends and bar width tend to adjust how open your chest feels.
Saddle height/position/tilt tend to adjust how you balance and how much weight is on your pedals, sit bones, and hands.

That's about all there is to it unless you're racing or really into it……or if you have physiological concerns, at which point I'd suggest contacting a sports physician with experience in cycling if you can. Lots of LBSes have no idea what they're doing with bike fit.

If they say anything about being able to see the front wheel hub over the bars, ignore everything else they have to say, it's irrelevant. If they consult a chart based on measurements, they're probably ......……unless the measurements are very extensive.

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

Around my area, the only 2 places I've seen that look like they know what they're doing, was around $65-$70. I'm sure there were more places that can do it, maybe for cheaper, but that's the prices of the few places I felt would do it better than my self fitting techniques.

 

[nanovapr]

Thanks for the info. There is one big LBS around, they've been in business for 40+ years. I don't know if they are considered good, I haven't set foot in the place yet. There are a couple of smaller ones, that my biking co-workers say are good, and run by enthusiasts.

I am a guy, of more or less average proportions. My bike is perhaps a little big for me on the inseam formulae, but it was used and a bargain. All of my tweaking so far has been seat stuff. Trying to get legs almost/not quite fully extended, getting "the bone below the knee" (forget proper name) in a plumb line with ball of foot/center of pedal while crank is horizontal. I put a book on the saddle to check, and am running it level right now. I haven't touched the bars. I'm good with hand tools, spent most of my life on a farm.

Actually, my wife may benefit more from a pro fitting than myself. She is tall (5'11") and has a long torso. She could need a longer stem, etc.

I'm feeling guilty now, because in this heat, I have only ridden once in the last two weeks or so. The original plan was to just put on some miles first, to get in better shape, and get familiar with the bike. THEN consider a pro fitting, once I got over basic "out of shape" aches and pains. It's going to be 10-15 degrees cooler this week, I'll be back at it. I did not grow up on a bicycle, nor have I ever ridden (before this) as an adult. My childhood transportation was walking-->horse-->dirt bike-->driving.

One thing I noticed, is that my knees are a little sore, but only in the first 5 minutes of riding. Not even what I would consider pain at all, just uncomfortable. Even when I stop for rest/water/sightseeing, the first 5 minutes again are uncomfortable. I've noticed this through all of my tweaks. I've looked up "knee pain" online, none of it seems to apply to me much. No sprinting involved, and not even going fast.

My legs WERE in better shape a couple of months ago. We had a hike in West Virginia in May. Visited the ruins of my wife's great-grandparents' farm. There is an old family cemetery there, and her family thought it would be cool TO PACK IN GRAVESTONES. I'm from the prairie, this is a pretty strenuous hilly walk (we went there last year). It's hack your way with a machete. I thought a 4-wheeler and a chainsaw was a much better idea.

They were small gravestones, but I started hiking with weights in February. By the time we went, I had a pack weight of 48 pounds, doing 4-5 miles a week. On the trip, it was about 2 miles, and my pack weight was 31 pounds, it was fairly easy. We had a group of 13, I was one of the oldest, but kept up with the young ones very well with no problems. We had 3 up front with machetes, 4 carrying food/water, and 6 carrying gravestones. Some laughed at my big old Alice pack, with a cargo shelf, but it was perfect to strap a gravestone to. Some of theirs were sliding around inside their soft frame-less packs. It doesn't take much weight on your shoulders off-balance, to tire you out quick.

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

Hmmm, as far as the fitting, it's more of a guideline, the plum bob to crank sometimes needs to be adjusted. But also, may be one of those newly explored muscles... What can also cause the discomfort may be starting out in a high gear. There's a guy on YouTube who sells training videos and has a tip about knee pain exercises that may help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xizNXtnKi4

I'd lowering the gear to start out with then changing gears as it gets too easy. While you're going you can switch it to something harder. Since it's not for a race or anything you don't need to put too much strain on yourself.

 

[mostapha]

Yeah…if your knee constantly hurts, you might want to talk to someone……but again, a sports physician is probably going to do a better job than a random LBS unless you get lucky. If it's just from lack of use……let your body tell you whether it's being hurt or just doing something new.

IHNFC if my shin bone/plumb bob/whatever is straight. I realized riders in the tour seemed to be ignoring that part. Some of that is that a lot of them are riding very small frames with long stems……presumably either for handling or to save weight……and decided it wasn't worth worrying about.

Setup also depends a lot on how you're riding. Road racing is very different from cyclocross or MTB racing, which are different from track bikes, which are different from casual trail riding. If your legs get straightish at the bottom, you're balanced (front to back) so you're not putting too much/little weight on your hands, and it's comfortable…it's probably right.

 

[nanovapr]

Thanks for the tips. I hadn't thought about gearing being too high. For this mild trail riding, I'm just staying on the "middle" chainring, and usually am taking off in about 3rd on the derailleur, it seems pretty easy. I am conscious about down-shifting before I stop. I pretty much stay in "2" (middle chainring), I know to avoid the extremes in getting the chain out of line. Keeping it in second lets me only fiddle with rear shifter (this is an 8 x 3). Again, there's no climbing involved, and this section of the trail doesn't ever have more than a 3 or 4 degree incline. People ride this on tandems, recumbents, fixies and Spyder bikes.

My knee thing is only the first 5 minutes, and never what I would call pain. I have my legs very nearly fully extended, but after riding a while I do have a sense of wishing I could stretch them momentarily. I don't think I have a cramped riding position, but again, I am just trying to learn, and get in better shape before I consider a pro fitting. Would hate to pay somebody to make it more comfortable now, and find out later that it wasn't best.

That was interesting about target fixation, I read about it after you mentioned it. I've seen people do it a lot, most notably in a car; swerving towards something that they look at off their path. I chalk it up to me being not totally comfortable/confident on a bicycle. Interestingly, I remember when I was young (15) and got my first dirt bikes (motorcycles) I did plenty of "kid stuff" on it. While moving, I would get up and off of it, and ride side-saddle, etc. I also spent years/decades farming, and an important basic skill there is to be able to sight ahead and stay on a straight line, while you are offset from your last pass by 10 or 12 feet or so. You're not going very fast there, but some places we had rows 3/4 of a mile long, and kept it straight while looking all around at many things. When I drove a spray truck, I was spraying 45 foot swathes, and going faster (20mph) than a tractor.

I hope to ride tonight, it's 10-12 degrees cooler!

 

[LuV2SkRaTcH]

Nice! Glad it helped, but again, I'd suggest a pro fitting and ask if they do tweaks after (sort of like a warranty) or at least explain what tweak do what, and ask if they can help identify future needed tweaks. Like numb hands, aches in your elbow/knee/back/neck/ankle and what would help relieve the awkward pressure.

The knee thing could just be a weird pedal stroke where your knees pop outward, instead of forward and up.

I went for a ride last night, about 22 miles in an hour an 45 minutes... (a few years ago, that would take an hour) and noticed my hands were getting numb and elbows were aching. Noticed I'm a little more stretched that I feel like I need I be. My fall may have changed some dimensions lol. I think I need to bring it in to get it looked at. I didn't get my bike fitted after I got my clipless pedals, might not even be a huge difference, but wouldn't mind getting my bike cleaned, and lubed and tuned up. My rear wheel needs to get true'd. I may have bent the rear fork part because my tire isn't centered. Noticed myself taking turns a lot softer than usual and I've been grabbing my tires pretty often, and I have that, prepare to fall feeling that I didn't have before my fall. Haha!