Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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WilsonPhillips

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Bingo! You understand the mechanics.

Good luck.

:)
Like I said last night. I "got it" on the first post you wrote about it. ;)

I have to say though, doing this with 24g Kanthal is much easier than doing it in a big jig with 1/2" cold rolled steel and a rosebud acetylene torch wrapping it around a 10" schedule 40 pipe. :lol:
 
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WilsonPhillips

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The photos came out great in my opinion! :)
Nice to see another Nikon kindred spirit. After 30+ years (my F3HP days) I still love my 105/1.8 lens, even though I have to use it in manual. I like the zooms I have but there is nothing like a fast, sharp prime lens!
I loved my primes but I sure got a lot of use out of my 24-70 f2.8 and my 70-200 f2.8 lenses. They were just so handy when the action was only slightly predictable.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Re: The end of microcoils?

Y'all might want to look at Dr. Farsalinos' recent interview regarding his recently completed study's findings.

An advanced somewhat technical discussion, I am extremely pleased to see some very knowledgeable folks speak out regarding some of Dr. Farsalinos' more controversial remarks on the thread, LOL...
The end of microcoils?

I'm most concerned as well that the specifications of the vaporizing element itself weren't clearly defined…in a
scientific study about vaporization. With all this talk of metals, torching, dry firing being bad what the heck are we talkin' about? But hey, that's just me. My most recent contribution there...

Nor can we discern that from this interview with Dr. Farsalinos. It is unclear to me how any metal off-gassing could bypass a uniform A2O3 deposition of Kanthal. That would infer that the alumina is being compromised at extremely low temp's (contrary to its specs). Considering that in normal operation (no hot spots, or exposed wire) of a properly oxidized KA1 wind vaporization should stabilize at/below transition temperature as long as the wind is thermally stable and there is adequate transfer to product flow.

A thermally stable wind is what would then be indicated? No?

Kanthal was designed as a heating element. Its oxidation ensures its durability and resistance to corrosion. As acknowledged by Dr. Fasalinos ceramic insulates (isolates) the base metal/s deterring metallic oxidation of the vaped product. Such a wire/wind not properly oxidized would then exhibit all the primary metal exposure as the alternatives, to both product and the airstream.

So shouldn't we be pulse-annealing all our Kanthal winds in lieu of torching? To properly optimize the winds thermal effectiveness, stability and for the presumptive safety reasons concerning metallic exposure.

Instead it's inferred we shouldn't be torching our coils at all without an alternative. For Kanthal, relegating it to the same potentials of metallic exposure as every other wire variant. I'm not dispensing with the utility of the latter merely pointing out the difference in potentials for KA1's best use.

My reasoning then would be that Kanthal was not used or considered. And not cited per any summaries I've seen yet. Then you're right we don't know what metals are being referred to. And if the coil is what remains "one of the big unknowns" why not address that first and foremost.

I agree with you AT we need to oxidize KA1 and a simple process we all need.

Good luck.

:)
 

turbocad6

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so have we gotten to the point here now that we are saying that the coil wrappers are not recommended at all and that they can't do a good job, period? I don't even have nor have I ever even tried any of those commercially available coil wrappers, but I'm still finding this a little hard to swollow. it's one thing to say tension is good and tension is great, but it's another thing to say that only with tension can you make a good coil...
 

Katya

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so have we gotten to the point here now that we are saying that the coil wrappers are not recommended at all and that they can't do a good job, period? I don't even have nor have I ever even tried any of those commercially available coil wrappers, but I'm still finding this a little hard to swollow. it's one thing to say tension is good and tension is great, but it's another thing to say that only with tension can you make a good coil...

Not that I know of--the OP of the thread is using a coiler and he loves it! :)
 

super_X_drifter

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Not that I know of--the OP of the thread is using a coiler and he loves it! :)
Right on :). But the op is just a redneck with some good friends in the vape industry, ... whuppin mods, serious attys and demands a hell of a lot from his vape.
He ain't no scientist, doctor, metallurgist, veterinarian or even very skilled with his hands :).
He's a simple man with more ambition than time, less patience than practice, and has come to realize that my coils don't glow like the ones in the pic that Mac published on the "end of the micro coils" thread.

Am I just gonna sit idly and envy those coils?

Hell ... no I ain't. I just ordered me up some 26 ga and some of them beadalon spool tamers and Ima try to see if I can get a 10 wrap set of duals to glow perfect like that using my artistic wire 2mm coil gizmo.

If I fail and/or the results are not noticably different Ima chalk it up to the "it's simple to shoot at the feet of one coil and make it dance" theory I have and just go back to my coil master.

If I succeed I will go back to my 2mm gizmo.

Again, for me it's never been about making a coil, it's the rigors of mounting them - as in dual parallel - that usually destroys any and all efforts that went into making the perfect coil.

But this time homey ain't playing around with no fishing reel - no, he ain't. Ima closely position that spool right next to the crank rod and watch it thru my illuminated magnifying stand. and I've already started to deplete a battery I will drop to about 3.2 V and use to pulse with :)
 

MacTechVpr

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so have we gotten to the point here now that we are saying that the coil wrappers are not recommended at all and that they can't do a good job, period? I don't even have nor have I ever even tried any of those commercially available coil wrappers, but I'm still finding this a little hard to swollow. it's one thing to say tension is good and tension is great, but it's another thing to say that only with tension can you make a good coil...

I don't think Dr. Farsalinos meant to discourage coilers…however I did take away that he implied that close or full contact winds were not "recommended". I think that was the word he used as contact winds are associated with the need for torching or pulsing. And initially he emphasized sharply, "Not once!"

I don't want to sit through it the third time.

Nevertheless Dr. Farsalinos did give a casual nod to the interviewers follow up question as to whether coilers are ok. I guess this suggests he believes as I do that they more readily yield symmetrical open winds for the typical user in lighter gauges.

I have a problem with what appears by this a casual dispensing with KA1 oxidation as I've been advocating its necessity for two years. I'm certainly not the only one to underscore it's importance as an objective in rebuilding. For good and sound reasons that make for a solid and secure vape. In fact had it not been feasible, being an at risk user, I would not have attempted to quit at all. And tension winding is the most direct path to that target I've found. Always ready to try any alternative.

What Dr. Farsalinos ultimately did reject was repetitive high heat pulsing. In this agree with him. Both close contact and full contact winds rely upon it to make the winds viable. His later explanation seems to back off from an absolute negative position on this and the link to his blog post may be found on the thread link I posted above.

The question I've been asking for two years? What is the most direct path to the goal? What's being discussed here on this thread is the various implications of strain. However we wind. All wires are strained. The difference in the means is effective control of its application.

Good luck all.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Right on :). But the op is just a redneck with some good friends in the vape industry, *** whuppin mods, serious attys and demands a hell of a lot from his vape.
He ain't no scientist, doctor, metallurgist, veterinarian or even very skilled with his hands :).
He's a simple man with more ambition than time, less patience than practice, and has come to realize that my coils don't glow like the ones in the pic that Mac published on the "end of the micro coils" thread.

Am I just gonna sit idly and envy those coils?

Hell ... no I ain't. I just ordered me up some 26 ga and some of them beadalon spool tamers and Ima try to see if I can get a 10 wrap set of duals to glow perfect like that using my artistic wire 2mm coil gizmo.

If I fail and/or the results are not noticably different Ima chalk it up to the "it's simple to shoot at the feet of one coil and make it dance" theory I have and just go back to my coil master.

If I succeed I will go back to my 2mm gizmo.

Again, for me it's never been about making a coil, it's the rigors of mounting them - as in dual parallel - that usually destroys any and all efforts that went into making the perfect coil.

But this time homey ain't playing around with no fishing reel - no, he ain't. Ima closely position that spool right next to the crank rod and watch it thru my illuminated magnifying stand. and I've already started to deplete a battery I will drop to about 3.2 V and use to pulse with :)

You go bro. Nobody's knockin' chasin' the dream. We all do. But Russ let's not lose sight of the importance of oxidation. Strain I feel helps getting there as it stabilizes internal wire stress and the resulting close contact speed up the process. And more heat (for micros) may be required which Dr. Farsalinas complained about. We won't be hearing the last of that, will we? I guess he assumed for a moment that coiler winders mean Kanthal can be run bareback. A lot of coiler users are. Especially new vapers.

What happens when you fail to oxidize a microcoil Russ?

I believe it's more time consuming (work) to close the gaps on formed with without a torch but you're doin' the windin' for you. Ultimately it's making Kanthal's surface finish stable that provides a host of benefits.

Good luck Russ.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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I have been making tensioned microcoils all along for MY Evods and such. Not sure why you need a special jig to wind them though. Maybe easier, I just use a 1/16 drill bit and wrap tightly and close. Isn't that all the jigs do?

Welcome Rob. Gotta head off soon, tired. But stick around. Tension winding with a pin vise is slick. Takes advantage of leverage to bring wires into close contact. We oxidize Kanthal for a number of reasons. That is easy to do once coils are uniform as in my above pic. It's more than just tight but as precisely close as nature allows. Good things happen there. And best of all you can prolly churn one out in a matter of minutes including oxidation. I couldn't come up with a better approach to making vaporizer elements. So I stuck you guys with this.

:D

Good luck Rob. Catcha on the flip.

 

Robert Cromwell

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Thanks for the reply Mac. I anneal my wire with a lighter before wrapping. I do not burn it after wrapping. As a lifelong electronics tech and general fixit kind of guy I can control the wrapping tension pretty well. After a few fumbles my coils all line up nice and level radially speaking. Lots of experience working with my hands on small things. I prefer my coils spaced about 1 wire width apart. I am a low wattage vaper. I see the benefit of heating, pinching and strumming the coils for higher wattage use though. Not sure if the pinched coils would work better for me or not. I have a dripper on the way and will likely play with the tighter coils on it.
 

turbocad6

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to me, in a nutshell the electrical aspect of all this is all kanthol is electrically conductive on it's surface before it is oxidized. when you wrap a contact coil all of the touching points start out as shorts. these actual contacts are very tiny though compared to the amount of current the wire can carry and in very short order when the wire is heated slowly with current run through it quickly builds up an oxide layer that further degrades this already inferior contact and the contact breaks, leaving each wrap electrically insulated from each other.

I've done plenty of non contact coils and truth is, they do vape ok, but there's just something that they don't give, I think it's what mac calls "the effect". non contact coils though can be done in a way that the wire will never see much more than 450-500 degrees. here's my goto single and dual non contact "never heated to glow" builds

20150503_032411_zpsi6pjhn8e.jpg



20150430_124946_zpsff2f47ab.jpg



I still prefer my contact coils though most times. I too say that man,all the crap I've breathed in through the years welding and painting and grinding, I'm not going to worry about a tiny chance of a tiny amount of metal being in the vape just yet :)
 

Robert Cromwell

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to me, in a nutshell the electrical aspect of all this is all kanthol is electrically conductive on it's surface before it is oxidized. when you wrap a contact coil all of the touching points start out as shorts. these actual contacts are very tiny though compared to the amount of current the wire can carry and in very short order when the wire is heated slowly with current run through it quickly builds up an oxide layer that further degrades this already inferior contact and the contact breaks, leaving each wrap electrically insulated from each other.

I've done plenty of non contact coils and truth is, they do vape ok, but there's just something that they don't give, I think it's what mac calls "the effect". non contact coils though can be done in a way that the wire will never see much more than 450-500 degrees. here's my goto single and dual non contact "never heated to glow" builds

20150503_032411_zpsi6pjhn8e.jpg



20150430_124946_zpsff2f47ab.jpg



I still prefer my contact coils though most times. I too say that man,all the crap I've breathed in through the years welding and painting and grinding, I'm not going to worry about a tiny chance of a tiny amount of metal being in the vape just yet :)

Very nice coils. Coil making requires a nice touch with a tad of artistry thrown in.
 

Robert Cromwell

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Very nice coils. Coil making requires a nice touch with a tad of artistry thrown in.

And yes I do not worry about a tiny bit of metal from the coils either. I am far more concerned about the ingredients in the juice I am vaping.
But in no way concerned enough to make me quit vaping. I am convinced that reasonable vaping is FAR safer then smoking.
 

turbocad6

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Right on :). But the op is just a redneck with some good friends in the vape industry, *** whuppin mods, serious attys and demands a hell of a lot from his vape.
He ain't no scientist, doctor, metallurgist, veterinarian or even very skilled with his hands :).
He's a simple man with more ambition than time, less patience than practice, and has come to realize that my coils don't glow like the ones in the pic that Mac published on the "end of the micro coils" thread.

Am I just gonna sit idly and envy those coils?

Hell ... no I ain't. I just ordered me up some 26 ga and some of them beadalon spool tamers and Ima try to see if I can get a 10 wrap set of duals to glow perfect like that using my artistic wire 2mm coil gizmo.

If I fail and/or the results are not noticably different Ima chalk it up to the "it's simple to shoot at the feet of one coil and make it dance" theory I have and just go back to my coil master.

If I succeed I will go back to my 2mm gizmo.

Again, for me it's never been about making a coil, it's the rigors of mounting them - as in dual parallel - that usually destroys any and all efforts that went into making the perfect coil.

But this time homey ain't playing around with no fishing reel - no, he ain't. Ima closely position that spool right next to the crank rod and watch it thru my illuminated magnifying stand. and I've already started to deplete a battery I will drop to about 3.2 V and use to pulse with :)




bro, are you still telling me that coilmaster still ain't doing it for you??? man with you in mind came up with an addition to my coiler tonight. I'm going to send it to you. I've thought about adding a clamp for a long time but honestly I haven't needed it, but it def makes it even easier and more fool proof. I'm going to send it to you so you can leave all that other gear alone, I'm sure even girly fingers will have no problem with this. it don't get any easier that the way I wrap man, even my electric coil winder wasn't as easy as this

to me it's not about tension as much as it is about consistency, my way gives perfectly consistent uniform coils every time without fail. all the tension that matters is right where the coil is formed, that's where all the stress is, reforming a straight wire into a coil, and that all happens right where the clamp is pinching it, any tension further down the wire changes nothing but allows even more leverage, leverage that personally I don't think you even need, this is enough leverage for a perfect coil without doing it under tension with complicated apparatus. funny thing is I've been showing it since way back in the original thread and still no ones really picked up on just how awesome it is. now with a simple clamp hopefully you'll see what I've been going on about all along while you were reeling in coals brother :)

here's a video I just made with the new clamp I made for you. send me your address again so I don't have to go searching for it :)


 

Aal_

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Superx, my man, IMHO your judgement of gizmo vs coil master is clouded by the fact that you went down 2 gauges from your previous go to wire. Now you are used to 27. You used to be a 29 kinda guy. I urge you to compare 29 gauge wrapped with coil master and gizmo and look st the difference. Try 30 as well. I think you will notice the difference :). Thicker gauge is just easier to work with and is more forgiving so the gap of difference between forming and tensioning gets smaller when wire gets thicker.

Turbo same goes for you too :)
 

laurie9300

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bro, are you still telling me that coilmaster still ain't doing it for you??? man with you in mind came up with an addition to my coiler tonight. I'm going to send it to you. I've thought about adding a clamp for a long time but honestly I haven't needed it, but it def makes it even easier and more fool proof. I'm going to send it to you so you can leave all that other gear alone, I'm sure even girly fingers will have no problem with this. it don't get any easier that the way I wrap man, even my electric coil winder wasn't as easy as this

to me it's not about tension as much as it is about consistency, my way gives perfectly consistent uniform coils every time without fail. all the tension that matters is right where the coil is formed, that's where all the stress is, reforming a straight wire into a coil, and that all happens right where the clamp is pinching it, any tension further down the wire changes nothing but allows even more leverage, leverage that personally I don't think you even need, this is enough leverage for a perfect coil without doing it under tension with complicated apparatus. funny thing is I've been showing it since way back in the original thread and still no ones really picked up on just how awesome it is. now with a simple clamp hopefully you'll see what I've been going on about all along while you were reeling in coals brother :)

here's a video I just made with the new clamp I made for you. send me your address again so I don't have to go searching for it :)



That clamp dodad is poetry in motion! I've got one of those chip puller thingys right here! I have to give that a go!
 
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