Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[Alexander Mundy]

Aal, necessity is the mother of invention; not regulation, nor limitation. Foolish we are if we think otherwise. Increase the latter and there is only more of the former. Control is an illusion without understanding.

Limit the varieties and methods by which we can apply power (winds) and we are limited. This is not control. There is no control by merely learning to use the temperature dial on a stove. If we lack knowledge and its appreciation we'll still burn the pan (our coils).

Control serves one purpose here — the imminent illusion of gain. And while this may benefit some, to which I'm not opposed, it needs to come by the real understanding of those served. Otherwise, none of us gain.

Thought to post this here as my advocacy for the knowledge of strain has been about control. Getting control of our devices so as to suit our needs more effectively. Not just the coil but the mechanics of the wind and its secure productive installation. Either we get it. Or it will be done for us.

Ironically such an awareness may complement temperature technology. It must, it's physics.

I love McDonald's but I'll fry my own eggs, thank you. And occasionaly a liberally scorched medium rare steak with a well aged cask rum chaser.

Good luck all.

While what you eluded to is obviously beyond comprehension by my logic controlled brain, I did click on the post links and was kinda taken back by some statements made in that thread. Since that is a suppliers thread I will not post there (they do pay for their space so I see it as their home turf).

Will you eat a fruit from a tree that you dont know if it will poisson you Aal?

You take that risk? What if the results of a study shows that burning metals is the worst thing you could do to yourself?

You still dont listen to me that I know what I am talking about. You dont listen Farsalinos. But it will be maybe too late when you will decide to listen to another person that you think he is more serious than me or Farsalinos.

Aal, I am always trying to protect my people and you are one of them. So: Dont burn the metals!

Seems we have this upheaval because a respected Dr. made a bold (by his repeated vocal emphasis) statement that he appears to have now pulled back from apocalyptical in effect to probably negligible in effect. I do not know which is the reality, but if we always err on the side of least harm then we should surly not be vaping. Nor driving, flying, eating food we have not grown and or raised and prepared ourselves, walking (especially stairs), etc. Instead, we each take the level of risk we are indivually comfortable with. Maybe the good Dr. is onto something, maybe not. Since there does not appear to be any valid scientifc evidence of the level of harm (if any) do you follow the Dr's advice because he is a Dr? This is the heart of what is currently going on. Some panicing, some dismissing, some grasping for what cannot be found yet. At the end of the day, if it bothers you enough to be concerned then don't dry burn. If it doesn't, then do. I have raced cars, done radio tower work, worked on traffic signals (now let me tell you that is a far more hazardous job with Joe and Jane public driving), and smoked for most of my life so I have made decisions to do things known to be hazardous. Not dry burning because it might possibly be hazardous to some degree unknown? Bet you can guess my decision. If I'm wrong, it was my decision. I will not try to influence yours, other than to say make it and don't look back.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac I think you are right. I always thought than in regulated mods we don't need to have the most efficient coil because we can increase wattage and get the same amount of efficiency. However tmc is not only about efficiency, but also about consistency in how the temperature is distributed. And that is mostly important in temperature regulated mods as well .

I think the attractive assumption which is somewhat disturbing to me as much as generalized conclusions about the hazards of annealing is that if we have thermal temperature protection we are liberated to build inefficient potentially unreliable coils. Technology is no substitute for education or accountability. This is a slippery slope which opens up too many possibilities for comfort.

That is not only my vaping opinion but a professional and personal one.

Good luck all.



p.s. I'm not into self-driven cars either. LOL

 

[MacTechVpr]

While what you eluded to is obviously beyond comprehension by my logic controlled brain, I did click on the post links and was kinda taken back by some statements made in that thread. Since that is a suppliers thread I will not post there (they do pay for their space so I see it as their home turf).

I get concerned AM. Look I'm not a scientist, metallurgist or physicist. I'm a retired professional buyer (PM). Out of IT/IS and sourcing for quite a while but I still got a few bulbs lit even if a few of the connections are tarnished. There need to be enough of us around to look out for the little guy whose tryin' to make sense of all this. We can't just dismiss entire classes of wire or approaches to circuit design with general statements. That many affected and everyone's gonna come out of their corner fightin'. Even so none of that matters. The damage is done the minute generalization occurs because a million people have heard it. And few will sort through a long thread to make sense of it.

Who get's hurt? The little guy who'se tryin' to get over. He/she never discovers that strain is a force or that Titanium might indeed need to be in their future. Or maybe they never quit at all as I would not have had I believed that aluminum could not be reasonably isolated from vaporized juices. See, that's a shame. When we're not provoked to curiosity and due diligence rather than concern.

Regarding Dr. Farsalinos I would add that I take the man at his word with respect to his intentions. The remarks made on air were unfortunate for their lack of encouragement.

Thanks for your input AM. Always welcome here.

Good luck.

 

[Katya]

Seems we have this upheaval because a respected Dr. made a bold (by his repeated vocal emphasis) statement that he appears to have now pulled back from apocalyptical in effect to probably negligible in effect. I do not know which is the reality, but if we always err on the side of least harm then we should surly not be vaping.

I'm beginning to wonder whether Dr. F's thoughts on "dry burning" in general could have been somehow, consciously or subconsciously, informed at some time, maybe long ago, by Imeo's views... I don't know, of course, how well they know each other, if at all, but the possibility exists.

Imeo is a legendary mod maker from Greece, and I'm fairly certain that Dr. F is a least somewhat familiar with his work.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Guys, I have a technical question regarding oxidisation layers and contact coils. It's not particularly related to safety...

...My understanding is that contact coils are possible with Kanthal because of the oxidising layer that gets formed on them during dry burning. This is why we see inconsistent heating across the coil until we tweak it and it has had a chance to form a consistent layer, which then protects it from shorts between coils.

My question is - why does this same layer not prevent shorts between the coil and anything else? For example, why do I still get shorts if my coil touches any part of the atty base or chimney? Should these not be prevented in the same way?

Or is it that even the slightest brush against any part of the atty will rub off that very thin layer of protection? But if so, I don't understand why we can tweezer/screwdriver a coil and generally pummel it about and it remains workable as a contact coil but then shorts immediately against the atty itself (or indeed against that same screwdriver if one accidentally hits fire while it's still in contact with the coil - not that I've ever done that, of course...)

TIA!

Short Answer: @Alexander Mundy's response HERE and HERE on pg. 37 of The end of microcoils? is right on point.

I would add that the contact patch between turns is extremely narrow but benefits from a greater combined thickness of insulation. So a grazed coil is at higher risk of shorting say within an atomizer assembly at lower voltage even than turns themselves where the insulation breakdown voltage threshold is higher.

Electrons will flow to any thermally cooler adjacent space.

It's the uniform oxidation contact and residual rigidity that strain induces that markedly increase a wind's resistance stability as your example very aptly demonstrates.

Thanks. Hope that answered your question.

Good luck.

 

[Aal_]

I'm beginning to wonder whether Dr. F's thoughts on "dry burning" in general could have been somehow, consciously or subconsciously, informed at some time, maybe long ago, by Imeo's views... I don't know, of course, how well they know each other, if at all, but the possibility exists.

Imeo is a legendary mod maker from Greece, and I'm fairly certain that Dr. F is a least somewhat familiar with his work.

The idea crossed my mind. Currently Dr. F. Is testing imeo's temperature control module VIR. So i know for a fact there is collaboration. How far that goes, beats me.

 

[super_X_drifter]

I'm beginning to wonder whether Dr. F's thoughts on "dry burning" in general could have been somehow, consciously or subconsciously, informed at some time, maybe long ago, by Imeo's views... I don't know, of course, how well they know each other, if at all, but the possibility exists.

Imeo is a legendary mod maker from Greece, and I'm fairly certain that Dr. F is a least somewhat familiar with his work.

The idea crossed my mind. Currently Dr. F. Is testing imeo's temperature control module VIR. So i know for a fact there is collaboration. How far that goes, beats me.

The EXACT same thing immediately crossed my mind when I first heard the dr say it. He stated it in nearly the same manor as the mod making titanium advocate so vehemently posted it again and again when he announced, what, about a year ago that he was going to be selling Ti wire.

It remained in my mind because they are also from the same country and you never know how close of a relationship they may have or what agenda may be trying to be pushed.

I no longer feel as crazy as I did since I'm not the only one who thought this.

 

[turbocad6]

well I did it, I figured out a way to perfect my pinch and twist enough to do even dual parallels, and even at smaller diameters, I increased the pinch leverage much higher, adding a whole lot more tension. I got the angle and leverage and pressure all right and it's so easy to wrap a perfect coil now that anyone can do it, wrap a perfect tight dual parallel as easy as winding up a toy 123... AND.... I didn't forget you guys

I can't possibly supply all of you guys with one of these these so I did the next best thing, I came up with a method to building this pinching clamp that is so easy anyone could do it. I did it with cheap off the shelf stuff that's easy to get. I'm going to put a tutorial together but here's a quick peek.


easy as 1 2 3 literally....


1) load the wire and set it with a preliminary starter wrap. don't have to be fancy or perfect, just obviously not overlapping, this is good enough to start with

2) slide it into the clamp, tilt it into place and squeeze, make sure the wires are not twisted or overlapping and reasonably straight and parallel to each other and are angled back slightly

3) while squeezing the clamp,spin the handle, keeping the coil tightly compressed throughout the wrap.....

the tighter you squeeze the handles the higher the tension is. easy and foolproof,and just about anyone can do it really, the only tools needed to build the clamp is a razor blade and crazy glue and a nail file. I kept the whole design as easy for anyone to do as possible, if you can cut a pencil eraser with a razor blade and apply a dab of crazy glue you can build this clamp



make a coil like this in a matter of seconds without much effort at all

this^^ is all 27ga @2mm...

of course it works perfect for single coils too making and using this is def going to be easy enough for almost anyone to do it, no special tools or skills required, a child could make this and wrap coils, it's going to be easy and give amazing results I'll put a tutorial up once I also make a super easy to make spinner to go with it

 

[Aal_]

That's just crazy turbo. Thanks man!!

 

[oplholik]

Thanks Turbo, terrific idea. I have a question tho, isn't the wire sliding over the jaws of the clamp going to wear a groove pretty fast?

 

[WilsonPhillips]

The EXACT same thing immediately crossed my mind when I first heard the dr say it. He stated it in nearly the same manor as the mod making titanium advocate so vehemently posted it again and again when he announced, what, about a year ago that he was going to be selling Ti wire.

It remained in my mind because they are also from the same country and you never know how close of a relationship they may have or what agenda may be trying to be pushed.

I no longer feel as crazy as I did since I'm not the only one who thought this.

I am in no hurry to buy up a bunch of new spools of titanium wire and start wrapping coils with that brittle s**t. I can respect then man for being a doctor and getting involved in vaping, but just because he is a doctor, that doesn't mean he knows jack about metallurgy.

Yes, we dry fire the coils gently to get that oxidation going and break those shorts. Well, not everyone does it gently, but I digress. I do it at a low wattage and they barely glow. That said, any out gassing from the coil stops the moment the wire cools down. Once I wick that puppy and get juice on it, it is not going to out gas until I burn the crud off to re-wick it. I think he is trying to sell some expensive titanium wire. He can talk about how dry firing kanthal will up your risk of death, or using titanium and not dry firing it will reduce your risk of death, but truth be known, my risk of death is 100%, just like his is 100%, and everyone else's is 100%.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I am in no hurry to buy up a bunch of new spools of titanium wire and start wrapping coils with that brittle s**t. I can respect then man for being a doctor and getting involved in vaping, but just because he is a doctor, that doesn't mean he knows jack about metallurgy.

Yes, we dry fire the coils gently to get that oxidation going and break those shorts. Well, not everyone does it gently, but I digress. I do it at a low wattage and they barely glow. That said, any out gassing from the coil stops the moment the wire cools down. Once I wick that puppy and get juice on it, it is not going to out gas until I burn the crud off to re-wick it. I think he is trying to sell some expensive titanium wire. He can talk about how dry firing kanthal will up your risk of death, or using titanium and not dry firing it will reduce your risk of death, but truth be known, my risk of death is 100%, just like his is 100%, and everyone else's is 100%.

Value your opinion Wil, you're a hands on kinda guy. And like many here will be straight up with us on your results. We can forge a pathway between us all that will help a heck of a lot peeps.

Thanks and g'luck.



p.s. Don't any of you please misconstrue that I'm dispensing with the potential utility of NiCr, Nickel or Titanium any more than spaced or twained winds. However, when discussing strain we're talking about comparative advantages. They have to be observable and repeatable.

p.s.s. Good point Wil, on logical fallacies.

 

[MacTechVpr]

well I did it, I figured out a way to perfect my pinch and twist enough to do even dual parallels, and even at smaller diameters, I increased the pinch leverage much higher, adding a whole lot more tension. I got the angle and leverage and pressure all right and it's so easy to wrap a perfect coil now that anyone can do it, wrap a perfect tight dual parallel as easy as winding up a toy 123... AND.... I didn't forget you guys

I can't possibly supply all of you guys with one of these these so I did the next best thing, I came up with a method to building this pinching clamp that is so easy anyone could do it. I did it with cheap off the shelf stuff that's easy to get. I'm going to put a tutorial together but here's a quick peek.

easy as 1 2 3 literally....

1) load the wire and set it with a preliminary starter wrap. don't have to be fancy or perfect, just obviously not overlapping, this is good enough to start with

2) slide it into the clamp, tilt it into place and squeeze, make sure the wires are not twisted or overlapping and reasonably straight and parallel to each other and are angled back slightly

3) while squeezing the clamp,spin the handle, keeping the coil tightly compressed throughout the wrap.....

the tighter you squeeze the handles the higher the tension is. easy and foolproof,and just about anyone can do it really, the only tools needed to build the clamp is a razor blade and crazy glue and a nail file. I kept the whole design as easy for anyone to do as possible, if you can cut a pencil eraser with a razor blade and apply a dab of crazy glue you can build this clamp

make a coil like this in a matter of seconds without much effort at all

this^^ is all 27ga @2mm...

of course it works perfect for single coils too making and using this is def going to be easy enough for almost anyone to do it, no special tools or skills required, a child could make this and wrap coils, it's going to be easy and give amazing results I'll put a tutorial up once I also make a super easy to make spinner to go with it

Great idea. As long as the forming pressure of the clamp is not greater than the tensile pressure (stretch) you will induce strain. There is a real variation in oxidation in this result. But I don't think it's forming that's the issue.

Somehow the wind must constrain contact between the pairs all the way end-to-end. Both sides. The lead twist must also be absolutely constrained without separation. If not then leads and/or end turns will fire hotter than the tighter interior of the coil initially. It'll begin to oxidize out>in leaving the usually hotter center without adequate insulation. Happens too when too much strain is applied by hand to balance end turns to the coil for any t.m.c.

Try to pair up strain as best as possible with or without the clamp and you'll have one hell of pressure cooker. I gather your target res is about .55Ω. That's one powerful wind bro. Fatter wire will def get ya a squatter contact patch x 2 with a parallel.

Good luck!

 

[turbocad6]

mac, this really makes nice coils, it glows and oxidises perfect. the way this clamp is made it holds the coil in form but it then creates even more drag on the wire being fed to the coil so it does induce strain. coils glow from the inside out and oxidises very evenly

Thanks Turbo, terrific idea. I have a question tho, isn't the wire sliding over the jaws of the clamp going to wear a groove pretty fast?

the wire doesn't slide directly over the jaws, this might nick or deform the wire. the way this clamp is made there are rubber inserts and then a layer of a piece of leather, the rubber inserts are the fleshy part that forms around the coil to keep it in shape and keep it from overlapping itself and also keeps the wind tight by forcing the wire to mate to the previous wrap with a backwards tilted bias, inducing compression/adhesion

when I say it's easy to make I mean really easy, like a little arts and crafts type project, this is all you need

 

[turbocad6]

here's a quick rundown of the procedure...


it's as easy as cutting a pencil eraser to the right size and shape then gluing it to the jaws, then slipping a thin piece of leather in there and glueing those edges down, trim the edges with a razor, done. heres a few shots for an idea but again, I'll put a full tutorial once I get a good way to make a spinny handle just as easy as this clamp

so easy and just about fool proof

 

[oplholik]

Thanks Turbo, now I see. Looking forward to the rest of it.

 

[WilsonPhillips]

here's a quick rundown of the procedure...


it's as easy as cutting a pencil eraser to the right size and shape then gluing it to the jaws, then slipping a thin piece of leather in there and glueing those edges down, trim the edges with a razor, done. heres a few shots for an idea but again, I'll put a full tutorial once I get a good way to make a spinny handle just as easy as this clamp

so easy and just about fool proof

Not bad at all. I might go pick up an End Nipper at the hardware store myself. I will most likely file or grind off the cutting edges, so as not to cut or dimple the wire if I grip it too tightly. What kind of glue did you use that bonded the eraser and the leather and the steel?

 

[turbocad6]

I did file the cutting edge, I'll have that in the tutorial, just didn't show it in those shots but that's what the file is for. you want to keep the jaws square to each other, this is what I do with a rubber band to apply some friction, then drag the file through repeatedly to dull the cutting edge, do this after cutting the eraser ideally, def want to keep the edges square to each other, this dull cutting edge is the highest pinching point and what creates the tension

for glue I cleaned the end nipper with acetone then used a drop of crazy glue, the rubber once in place I don't think is going anywhere, the 2 leather flaps may be an issue for durability long term with the crazy glue but if it pops off just another dab and put it back, or try a better 2 part epoxy maybe, so far it's ben good with just the cyanoacrylate, you don't want glue down in the rubber to leather, you only want glue on the leather at the 2 flaps that fold over

 

[MacTechVpr]

here's a quick rundown of the procedure...


it's as easy as cutting a pencil eraser to the right size and shape then gluing it to the jaws, then slipping a thin piece of leather in there and glueing those edges down, trim the edges with a razor, done. heres a few shots for an idea but again, I'll put a full tutorial once I get a good way to make a spinny handle just as easy as this clamp

so easy and just about fool proof

T, I got it. Ingenious. And as I said, there's strain in there. You still have to pull the wire through and overcome the compression drag. The reasons for the variations in wire oxidation color may have to do with the other stuff I mentioned. I know a pin vise or gizmo's not gonna work for all of us. You gotta work out what best gets tension for you. I'm only here to point it that strain is a tool and it adds wonderful things to our vape. I just still wish you machine did parallels! Regardless of oxidation that is a nice thermal result in that first pic. I should do so well at times.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Lifted from the thread — The end of microcoils?

Why a Tensioned Micro Coil?

A t.m.c. (tensioned micro coil) presents the tightest contact possible for electrical pulsed oxidation of KA1 wire coils. With closest turn-to-turn proximity it is then feasible to obtain the most consistent oxidation possible. Enough to support high power output without shorting. When wound in a uniform state of tension end-to-end so as not to introduce skew or other strain imbalance it will evidence no hot spots whatsoever and will respond to pulsing quickly to an insulated state for low power. Continued ascending low voltage pulsing will materially enhance insulation discernably adding to the practical power handling capacity of the wind. A deep uniformity of insulation is entirely possible as evidenced by this photograph…

In a sense the very geometry of a t.m.c. serves as an important indicator of distorting strain in our winds and their set (termination).

I can think of no better baseline or metric than to teach new vapers how to perfect the balancing of strain in our coils to ensure consistent performance and temperature. We effectively mitigate thermal variation in our winds and we can more practically estimate mean temperature operating conditions. As well enjoy the benefits to our vape of a stable complete circuit.

Good luck all!