Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[super_X_drifter]

When I'm participating in a thread especially a large ongoing one I like to go back to the beginning and read a couple pages for a refresher. On page 2 MacTechVpr said:

"If you read back on EFC to the winter/spring of last year most everyone had come to the realization that loose irregular spaced winds were not contributing to the efficiency or performance that was hoped to be attainable."

My latest experiment seems to back this statement up. This weekend I picked up a Lemo and since it came with a prebuilt coil already installed I filled her up and proceeded to vape. This coil was 28 gauge wire about 8 1/2 wraps with an inside diameter of 1/8". The stock coil did not have contact spacing. There was a slight gap between each wrap. I do mouth hits usually three seconds or less. What I noticed with the tank was excessive ramp up. The first hit produced OK taste but not much vapor. On the second hit once the coil was warmed up the production increased.

The long ramp up does not cut it with me. My primary goal is pure intense flavor. After that second pull I feel the atty is over driven and the excess heat starts to degrade the taste. Sure cranking up the wattage might speed up the ramp time but I'm also looking for efficiency and battery life as well as a cool flavorful vape. Besides I was hitting the stock 1.1 ohm coil with 16 watts. That's plenty I'd wager. So after a few ml of juice it was time for a change.




I kept with the 28 gauge but used my .078" (2mm) mandrel in the coil gizmo and applied 7 1/2 pounds of dead weight to the other end of the wire. The resistance measures 1.3 ohms. The difference between this coil and the big 1/8" stock coil is night and day. The first pull on the Lemo yields good flavor and surprisingly quite a bit of vapor too. I left the power level the same at 16 watts. With this new TMC and the tighter draw of the Lemo this RTA is now my favorite. The smaller coil with tension seems to heat up much quicker allowing me to take the shorter hits I like while producing thick vapor with lots of taste. I've released the fire button long before the coil and wick heat enough to start affecting flavor.

Another trait I've noticed since I've started using tensioned coils and in the Lemo in particular is a lack of popping and sizzling for the amount of vapor produced. What I'm finding is a quiet cool draw time after time. I'm really liking the tensioned coil in my tanks.

In the OP Super_x said:

"Tensioned Micro Coils (TMC's) are were the highest levels of efficiency are gained, they are easy for even the beginner to reproduce with the same results/resistance every time and provide a perfect heating element for your atomizer."

As a flavor guy it makes sense to me. The consistency I get from each coil I make with the tensioned method is worth the added effort (if any) in my own quest for that perfect vape. Eliminating as many variables as possible is the key to finding repeatable success. The coil is the heart of our device so why not aim for perfection at the coil building bench?

Yes that is a beautiful coil. Nice work and great description of your results

 

[Darryl Licht]

When I'm participating in a thread especially a large ongoing one I like to go back to the beginning and read a couple pages for a refresher. On page 2 MacTechVpr said:

"If you read back on EFC to the winter/spring of last year most everyone had come to the realization that loose irregular spaced winds were not contributing to the efficiency or performance that was hoped to be attainable."

My latest experiment seems to back this statement up. This weekend I picked up a Lemo and since it came with a prebuilt coil already installed I filled her up and proceeded to vape. This coil was 28 gauge wire about 8 1/2 wraps with an inside diameter of 1/8". The stock coil did not have contact spacing. There was a slight gap between each wrap. I do mouth hits usually three seconds or less. What I noticed with the tank was excessive ramp up. The first hit produced OK taste but not much vapor. On the second hit once the coil was warmed up the production increased.

The long ramp up does not cut it with me. My primary goal is pure intense flavor. After that second pull I feel the atty is over driven and the excess heat starts to degrade the taste. Sure cranking up the wattage might speed up the ramp time but I'm also looking for efficiency and battery life as well as a cool flavorful vape. Besides I was hitting the stock 1.1 ohm coil with 16 watts. That's plenty I'd wager. So after a few ml of juice it was time for a change.




I kept with the 28 gauge but used my .078" (2mm) mandrel in the coil gizmo and applied 7 1/2 pounds of dead weight to the other end of the wire. The resistance measures 1.3 ohms. The difference between this coil and the big 1/8" stock coil is night and day. The first pull on the Lemo yields good flavor and surprisingly quite a bit of vapor too. I left the power level the same at 16 watts. With this new TMC and the tighter draw of the Lemo this RTA is now my favorite. The smaller coil with tension seems to heat up much quicker allowing me to take the shorter hits I like while producing thick vapor with lots of taste. I've released the fire button long before the coil and wick heat enough to start affecting flavor.

Another trait I've noticed since I've started using tensioned coils and in the Lemo in particular is a lack of popping and sizzling for the amount of vapor produced. What I'm finding is a quiet cool draw time after time. I'm really liking the tensioned coil in my tanks.

In the OP Super_x said:

"Tensioned Micro Coils (TMC's) are were the highest levels of efficiency are gained, they are easy for even the beginner to reproduce with the same results/resistance every time and provide a perfect heating element for your atomizer."

As a flavor guy it makes sense to me. The consistency I get from each coil I make with the tensioned method is worth the added effort (if any) in my own quest for that perfect vape. Eliminating as many variables as possible is the key to finding repeatable success. The coil is the heart of our device so why not aim for perfection at the coil building bench?

First off... BigE, Nice coil!

I do have one suggestion: next time wrap counter clockwise so your legs are on the opposite sides of the screws. That way the screw will pull and not push on the legs when tightening. Don't ask how I know this, but I am a graduate of the school of hard knocks! LOL!

Ladies and Gentlemen - We have yet another TMC convert and disciple!

Now get out there and spread the good word of tension!

Vape On!

 

[TheBigE]

Thanks guys!

Darryl -Yes I noticed as soon as I went to screw it down. I went back and looked at my last build on the Subtank and the legs come off the same way. -I wrapped the same direction. The Subtank has tiny grooves to trap the wire so it doesn't matter much there. Next time I rebuild the Lemo I'll have to remember to reverse my winding direction.

A long time ago in a galaxy far away I used to work on airplanes. Screws and nuts all over require safety wire and we took great pride in creating nice twists and perfectly installed safety wire jobs. You had to stop and think every time making sure the wire came around the correct way on the screw to pull in the tightening direction and not pulling loose or it defeats the purpose of keeping the fastener tight and in place. Attention to detail -You picked up on that from my photos. Well done!

 

[super_X_drifter]

How did it take me this to realize Darryl's screen name is derelict? I like it.

Doh. I'm a lil slow

 

[TheBigE]

Hilarious! I didn't notice that either. Here I was being polite and addressing the guy with his first name. Maybe Darryl is his name?

 

[Darryl Licht]

Hilarious! I didn't notice that either. Here I was being polite and addressing the guy with his first name. Maybe Darryl is his name?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... it's a secret!

 

[Darryl Licht]

Thanks guys!

Darryl -Yes I noticed as soon as I went to screw it down. I went back and looked at my last build on the Subtank and the legs come off the same way. -I wrapped the same direction. The Subtank has tiny grooves to trap the wire so it doesn't matter much there. Next time I rebuild the Lemo I'll have to remember to reverse my winding direction.

A long time ago in a galaxy far away I used to work on airplanes. Screws and nuts all over require safety wire and we took great pride in creating nice twists and perfectly installed safety wire jobs. You had to stop and think every time making sure the wire came around the correct way on the screw to pull in the tightening direction and not pulling loose or it defeats the purpose of keeping the fastener tight and in place. Attention to detail -You picked up on that from my photos. Well done!

Only because I made the same mistake yesterday several times! LOL!

Those grooves don't help much if you're cinching down a perfectly twisted and symmetric MC... again trust me there!
I have a PHD from the College of Hard Knocks!

How did it take me this to realize Darryl's screen name is derelict? I like it.

Doh. I'm a lil slow

Slow --- A trait most of us southern raised cornbread & BBQ loving hillbillies share!

Darryl Licht (derelict) was my pseudonym in my wilder college fraternity years! I even had a fake ID with that name and was questioned more than once by LEO's or campus security... they never caught on!

So Super... you are in fact smarter than the average bear! LOL!

 

[super_X_drifter]

Only because I made the same mistake yesterday several times! LOL!

Those grooves don't help much if you're cinching down a perfectly twisted and symmetric MC... again trust me there!
I have a PHD from the College of Hard Knocks!



Slow --- A trait most of us southern raised cornbread & BBQ loving hillbillies share!

Darryl Licht (derelict) was my pseudonym in my wilder college fraternity years! I even had a fake ID with that name and was questioned more than once by LEO's or campus security... they never caught on!

So Super... you are in fact smarter than the average bear! LOL!

I like it - my original screen name here was HYplainsDrifter (my xbl gamer tag) then when I changed gamer tags to super x, I changed screen names too. Then I thought that I should change it to Jy Vassturkie. But I already had a bunch of outside notoriety with the whole micro coil thing and what not so I left it alone.

But my moms account on here is Jy Vassturkie. Too bad she never uses it

Yours is priceless bro

 

[Darryl Licht]

I like it - my original screen name here was HYplainsDrifter (my xbl gamer tag) then when I changed gamer tags to super x, I changed screen names too. Then I thought that I should change it to Jy Vassturkie. But I already had a bunch of outside notoriety with the whole micro coil thing and what not so I left it alone.

But my moms account on here is Jy Vassturkie. Too bad she never uses it

Yours is priceless bro

Thanks, not many have ever caught the derelict connection my friend!

On a more serious note, has anyone noticed that when using a tmc every juice tastes better? I just put the same juice in both my STM running a twisted tmc, and my atlantis. Tastes so much better on the tmc! I'm going to have to give some of those "tweener" juices in my box of questionable flavs a retaste now!

I love Jy Vassturkie, and there's so many ways you could spell that for a foreign twist...

.. Vassturqui

Jiy Vazzturki

Jyv Assturqui

LOL!

 

[jefx]

@Darrly Licht
I Noticed MORE flavor, but I don't necessarily equate it to better. In fact, I found my usual ADV got a little annoying. After spending the day with my new TMCs, I actually went back to regular coils.

I want to thank Darryl Licht and MacTechVper for helping me in succesfully making some TMCs.

I notice a cooler vape with more flavor, and a smoother overall vapor production. However, it's not for me. At least at this time. I may give it a shot again in the future. I actually prefer a bit less "smooth" vapor with less flavor. The TMC made it feel as if I was just breathing flavored air.....I could see alot of vapor, but I couldn't feel it as much.

Overall, I think that my TMC experience was considerably more work for an experience I didn't enjoy as much. I really think this type of coil is more for the extreme hobbyist type of vaper who's goal is to push the envelope, or for long time vapers who are bored with their experience.

 

[Darryl Licht]

@Darrly Licht
I Noticed MORE flavor, but I don't necessarily equate it to better. In fact, I found my usual ADV got a little annoying. After spending the day with my new TMCs, I actually went back to regular coils.

I want to thank Darryl Licht and MacTechVper for helping me in succesfully making some TMCs.

I notice a cooler vape with more flavor, and a smoother overall vapor production. However, it's not for me. At least at this time. I may give it a shot again in the future. I actually prefer a bit less "smooth" vapor with less flavor. The TMC made it feel as if I was just breathing flavored air.....I could see alot of vapor, but I couldn't feel it as much.

Overall, I think that my TMC experience was considerably more work for an experience I didn't enjoy as much. I really think this type of coil is more for the extreme hobbyist type of vaper who's goal is to push the envelope, or for long time vapers who are bored with their experience.

You are very welcome for the assistance jefx. It is a lil tougher than a non-tensioned coil at the beginning as I must admit, but with a little practice I can now make a tensioned coil in about the time that it took me to make a non-tensioned one. (but I am also not using dead weight and a drill, just the coil gizmo and my hand pressure on the spool)

I am truly surprised by that statement in bold/italics... most folks who have tried a tensioned prefer it's flavor. It makes sense that more dense vapor would result in more flavor... perhaps your ejuice is the culprit, and you only llike it's flav on a non-tensioned coil as that's what your used to with that juice? Might try a few other juices you like with that build before writing it off. As Mac stated earlier, another huge benefit of a tensioned coil is it's longevity, not just flavor. You might want to give it more time and a more thorough eval than a half a day... imho!

In any event, it just goes to show you that taste is so subjective and individual! Perhaps you will re-visit tension at a later date? Who knows? Either way, you didn't poo-poo it-- you had the guts and you tried it--- and it may not be for you. I congratulate you for trying! However, I'd like to suggest you keep trying it for a while and perhaps go head to head with a similar build on similar attys (if you have them) using the same juice. IMHO!

 

[super_X_drifter]

@Darrly Licht
I Noticed MORE flavor, but I don't necessarily equate it to better. In fact, I found my usual ADV got a little annoying. After spending the day with my new TMCs, I actually went back to regular coils.

I want to thank Darryl Licht and MacTechVper for helping me in succesfully making some TMCs.

I notice a cooler vape with more flavor, and a smoother overall vapor production. However, it's not for me. At least at this time. I may give it a shot again in the future. I actually prefer a bit less "smooth" vapor with less flavor. The TMC made it feel as if I was just breathing flavored air.....I could see alot of vapor, but I couldn't feel it as much.

Overall, I think that my TMC experience was considerably more work for an experience I didn't enjoy as much. I really think this type of coil is more for the extreme hobbyist type of vaper who's goal is to push the envelope, or for long time vapers who are bored with their experience.

I run TMCs because of the ease in making them and how long they last. I pretty much rebuild for videos or if I get bored. The coils last I dunno, months maybe.

depending on the juice you run you may need to dilute it some (a good thing) and / or position the coils differently in relation to the air source as in higher / lower.

But not everyone likes everyone else's style of vape and the subjective nature of taste, TH, warmth and thickness of vapor make using a build that suits us best an important part of our life.

Personally, TMCs wound with a reel / rod stub and the gizmo are much easier and quicker for me than any other method but that sorta ties into the paragraph above

Yes, I fall into the category of extremely satisfied vaper, rebuilding is a rather mundane and brainless task with my setup but I haven't gotten bored with the results in nearly 2 years of making micros. I've just simplified my process and taken advantage of improvements brought on by some brilliant folks

But my sole purpose for building is to replicate / exceed the feeling of smoking a Marlboro light. I'm a rare breed at that and flavored eliquid is not my game.

 

[zerosm0ke]

OK, like holy cow!

I tried to read the entire thread, but after 25 pages I just couldn't hang anymore.
So, I like this concept and want to give it a go.

I have a gizmo ready, but what is the current incarnation of this?
Do I just need a fly reel and homemade mandrels if I want different sizes. Or is there something new/more?
I did watch several of the videos.

Thanx guys for doing this and sharing with the community.

 

[Darryl Licht]

OK, like holy cow!

I tried to read the entire thread, but after 25 pages I just couldn't hang anymore.
So, I like this concept and want to give it a go.

I have a gizmo ready, but what is the current incarnation of this?
Do I just need a fly reel and homemade mandrels if I want different sizes. Or is there something new/more?
I did watch several of the videos.

Thanx guys for doing this and sharing with the community.

The gizmo, your spool, and the normal tools are all you need to get started! That's al I'm using right now, although the reel intrigues me!

 

[jefx]

@Darryl Licht & @ super_X_drifter
The TMC is definitely a better made, more efficient coil. But for me, as an ex-cigar and ex-pipe smoker ( haven't smoked a cig in over 6 years) a slightly harsh and warm smoke with heavy throat hit is what I kinda enjoyed about smoking, and something I find enjoyable in my vapes. I also haven't become too fond of heavily flavored juices. I kind of like more subtle flavor, and even frequently dilute my juices with straight pg/vg.

The TMCs gave more flavor, with a smoother intake. It produces alot of vapor, but it didn't feel as substantial. By the time I cranked the wattage up to a point where I was getting a satisfying feeling, I was flirting with burnt and hot hits.

Also, the extra steps required made the act of making a coil (something I kinda find fun) seem more like a chore and took some of the fun out of it. I'm sure I can buy equipment to ease/quicken the process, but I'm not ready to spend money on that kind of gear.

I'm sure I will revisit TMCs again, but for now, I just prefer hand wrapped coils.

I appreciate the experimentation and information given by the people in this thread.

 

[Darryl Licht]

Jefx:

No problem, but now that you describe the type of vape you like, I totally understand.

Perhaps you'll revisit this technique in the future.

 

[MacTechVpr]

@Darryl Licht & @ super_X_drifter
The TMC is definitely a better made, more efficient coil. But for me, as an ex-cigar and ex-pipe smoker ( haven't smoked a cig in over 6 years) a slightly harsh and warm smoke with heavy throat hit is what I kinda enjoyed about smoking, and something I find enjoyable in my vapes. I also haven't become too fond of heavily flavored juices. I kind of like more subtle flavor, and even frequently dilute my juices with straight pg/vg.

The TMCs gave more flavor, with a smoother intake. It produces alot of vapor, but it didn't feel as substantial. By the time I cranked the wattage up to a point where I was getting a satisfying feeling, I was flirting with burnt and hot hits.

Also, the extra steps required made the act of making a coil (something I kinda find fun) seem more like a chore and took some of the fun out of it. I'm sure I can buy equipment to ease/quicken the process, but I'm not ready to spend money on that kind of gear.

I'm sure I will revisit TMCs again, but for now, I just prefer hand wrapped coils.

I appreciate the experimentation and information given by the people in this thread.

Read through and got it Jef. An avid tobacco fan all my life. I've surveyed literally thousands of vapers from all over the world. What you report is not uncommon. Winding erratic winds that are in many cases overheating beyond the wires capacity we get accustomed to that diffuse taste. And I want to call it that. It's not a flavor. Agree with you there. But it is a texture. A texture we associate with thoat hit. The real thing is the texture and organic impact of nicotine. Being that you dilute as I do at all nic levels, you're feeling light. Right on. You're getting the nic alright, and probably more of it. But you're not sensing that. You're detecting what you've associated as that experience. And a drier output is not what t.m.c.'s deliver. Very accurate observation. As well as your report of flavor density.

My take on all this is that inefficient vaporization has in a manner of speaking modified our sensibilities as to flavor and accustomed us to the dry heat that a diffuse vapor provides. And the more of it, the more some report this as better flavor as explained above. But it isn't particularly as you acknowledge. It is a texture that you're missing and that's part of what we interpret as taste.

What tensioned winds deliver is more effective vaporization. Those tuned in to density rather than heat production are going to get a blast of flavor missing from a diffuse vape, as many new Subtank users have noted. They need greater density from a standard OCC. If you've grown to appreciate the other, well that's now your preference. I wouldn't want to try and talk you out of it bro. Instead Id say you can still build tensioned symmetrical open winds and target all the heat diffusion you like, efficiently. Glad that you got that too. That tension's about proper electrical construction.

My introduction of tension as means to make efficient vapor is first so we can get folks quickly to a reliable vape. Beyond that it's a vaping universe. And tension is an important tool that can be used to tailor any vaping experience. For beginners, the most practical means to define their own preferences having found what wire is supposed to do. And yes, that means control of texture too. But it starts with a proper electrical coil. And now you've seen the difference to be able to make an accurate assessment. That's important to us all.

I'm just glad the reference standard didn't remain the Vivi Nova.

It's been a pleasure to read your refreshingly earnest account Jef. Thanks.

Best of luck.

 

[jefx]

Thanks Mac.

On a side note, is a spaced tensioned coil a worthwhile concept? I made one last night for S&Gs and I was gonna try it today, but it got fudged as I was mounting it. I didn't bother to make another yet.

My understanding is that tensioning helps to keep better contact in a contact coil, but I'm curious to any benefits it may have on spaced coils.

Of the coil designs I've tried, simple spaced parallel coils seem to achieve the effect I like, however, I'm not really sure why.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thanks Mac.

On a side note, is a spaced tensioned coil a worthwhile concept? I made one last night for S&Gs and I was gonna try it today, but it got fudged as I was mounting it. I didn't bother to make another yet.

My understanding is that tensioning helps to keep better contact in a contact coil, but I'm curious to any benefits it may have on spaced coils.

Of the coil designs I've tried, simple spaced parallel coils seem to achieve the effect I like, however, I'm not really sure why.

I never thought contact coils would work. I thoroughly believed like any crossed wire it would just give a nasty loose post taste. So my early research almost six months was with tensioned micro's wound on screws. I abandoned it as I introduced the t.m.c. because my project's goal was to get new vapers to a good vape. But definitely works, you know screw specs are all over. It's more fiddly than a screw driver and a spool of wire. So I thought most couldn't deal on that. So yeah, doable. Tension replaces torching for rigidity so you don't carbonize the wire surface before pulsing, you get good oxidation. I believe that just prolongs the life and performance of the coil. It won't get you the vapor concentration running the kettle that a micro is but you target the wind to the power you need to get the heat you like, is all.

Winding on a screw gives you good consistent contact with the wick. Wick with some decent density and you get some compression, improves vapor output. Still get the diffusion you like. Can use a device like here, gotta custom build it tho. Can be simple to set up threaded stock instead of wire stock. It also will give you even distribution of heat because of the uniform oxidation. Still tending to heat from center but less likelihood of hot leads. Common sense really. We know res goes off when heating elements get deformed or degraded by corrosion. Only applying the same principles to our vape.

Parallels are excellent and are on the dry side of tension. Love 'em but they separate easily and go nasty hot. Easy to foul rewicking and usually not good the 2nd time out. I've got a tensioned variation, picture below, you might want to check it if you get around to it. I twist the leads to prevent separation, isolate and preserve the main wind. It can go high power and low res. This one does .5Ω on 30 AWG…I will be taking it much lower.

LMK if I can help in any way.

Good luck j.

Vape on!

 

[El Dee]

OK I've read the posts from the start of the thread....Thanks for all the information...

Reels....I've got reels....No fly reels though...A Cabelas is set to open nearby next month...Bass Pro opened last year...I looked at the options and ordered a Cabelas Wind River reel yesterday...The V shaped spool is why I went with Wind River...I wanted the spool as narrow as possible...The reel was available in three sizes and all at $29....I went with the smallest....Spec @ 3 inches...

I bought the Gizmo and I'm returning it today....I ordered the Gizmo with the drill chuck yesterday...Hoping for that to be a little more rigid where the action is...I only plan on using the handle/chuck from the kit and mounting the reel and chuck on aluminum or wood....Aluminum if I have a suitable piece of 1/4...padded bottom...

2.0 or 5/64ths would be my diameter of choice....Wouldn't mind having a 1.5 and 2.5 for experimentation....Looked at all options around the shop and house...I have a collection of hangers form @2.0 ~2.5mm....Some are coated....some a little rusty....I cleaned one up with sand paper yesterday and while it will work the search continues....I plan on hitting the welding store and measuring some stainless welding rod...If that is a no go I'm hitting a piano store nearby...There isn't an Ace nearby....Wrapping under tension I prefer the mandrel be very clean....Wouldn't want to grind foreign materials {rust/scale} into the interior of the coil....

Thanks to SuperX and all whom have contributed....I'm on it !!!!!!!!!!!!!