The Anti-Diacetyl Meeting Room

[FieryOne]

Fiery, not all e-cigs use diacetyl-containing flavoring. Diacetyl is not necessary in e-cigs in any way, shape or form.

This is true. The thing is, I know which vendors will tell me. I know which flavor manufacturers don't use it, and those are who I deal with. For the one I know of that does use diacetyl, it is in trace amounts in some of thier liquids. I would probably only use those DIY in conjunction with other flavors and the percentage would be lower still. AND, I wouldn't use those as my all day every day vape. I would recommend that anyone concerned about this use the same caution.

 

[Edwv30]

I'm truly sorry. I did not mean what I said to come out in a derogatory way. I was not using anyone's statements in a personal manner. What I'm saying is that if we continue to err on the side of extreme fear, instead of caution and rational discussion in public where anyone can read it, then those statements can be used to further impact public perception.

Anti's can play the issue both ways, and they will. We don't know enough, and in truth I used the example of someone's mother last in the line of a kind of domino effect of increasingly black and white, alarmist thinking because that's exactly how one would build an emotionally based case against vaping. They would take blanket, unfounded statements, theories, personal fears, and then use of all that to fuel an example that appeals to the emotions more directly.

I can definitely empathize with you, and again I didn't mean a thing about it personally. I was in a rush to get to class, and made the mistake of not waiting until I could make a better post. Personally I'm avoiding diacetyl until we know a little more. If anything I say seems to come out on one side of the black/white argument which people are trying to force I promise I'm not on just one side or the other.

Thank you Fiddles. I also apologize for my reaction. It has been a very stressful time and the thought of hurting someone that I love when I am trying to help them has really been bothering me. I have successfully quit smoking with my my EGO and wanted the same for my mother. It was because of her that I quit...after seeing her suffer I know it's something I never want to experience. I am still going to encourage her to vape but will make sure her juice is from a reputable company and Diacetyl free.

 

[banjo]

I can appreciate the effort that everyone in this discussion has gone to in contributing to an (obviously) heated topic. It has been completely exhausting for me and I suppose I have been categorized as a "crazy alarmist" at this point. So I think I'm finished.

Panini: I have read back over your posts and appreciate the contribution that you have made to this discussion, and I would never categorize you as a "crazy alarmist." But, like you, I feel this discussion is turning into a marathon, and I'm also a little exhausted, so, like you, I'm leaving it to others to see it through to its conclusion.

 

[Nikhil]

I'm sick of google and wiki and everything. Anyone have an answer for these two?

Diacetyl gives the Buttery and Pastry flavors a realistic feeling, causing your taste buds that are receptive to butter and fats to trigger. For example, many who have reviewed my Butterscotch Cookie want more buttery flavor in it, but as I said I don't use the high diacetyl content Butter. The replacements are less effective and have a different flavor profile, sort of like comparing fat free margarine to real butter.

And yes, the comma in Italy is used as the decimal point is used here.

FWIW, I have posted on my ordering thread disclosure of both Diacetyl and Pentanedione.

 

[SimpleSins]

This is true. The thing is, I know which vendors will tell me. I know which flavor manufacturers don't use it, and those are who I deal with. For the one I know of that does use diacetyl, it is in trace amounts in some of thier liquids. I would probably only use those DIY in conjunction with other flavors and the percentage would be lower still. AND, I wouldn't use those as my all day every day vape. I would recommend that anyone concerned about this use the same caution.

You are right, Fiery, but until these threads, nobody had any of that information. And there are a couple of vendors that do use diacetyl, and much of the choice in using their other products for many people will depend on how they respond(ed) to the issue. Some vendors fared better than others. But I do want to reiterate, until someone started these threads, most people were not aware that diacetyl was an issue. Even those who knew what it was assumed that since it was taken out of popcorn, it was out of everything else, too. Now people are aware otherwise, have the facts as they are known and seen by some people, and have a wide variety of vendor information to help them make a decision as to which vendor's safeguards, customer care, and integrity they wish to send their money to.

 

[FieryOne]

You are right, Fiery, but until these threads, nobody had any of that information. And there are a couple of vendors that do use diacetyl, and much of the choice in using their other products for many people will depend on how they respond(ed) to the issue. Some vendors fared better than others. But I do want to reiterate, until someone started these threads, most people were not aware that diacetyl was an issue. Even those who knew what it was assumed that since it was taken out of popcorn, it was out of everything else, too. Now people are aware otherwise, have the facts as they are known and seen by some people, and have a wide variety of vendor information to help them make a decision as to which vendor's safeguards, customer care, and integrity they wish to send their money to.

I disagree that nobody had that information. I've been all over this forum prior to ordering juice from a supplier and that is how I knew to avoid it or only use it in small infrequent vapes. I've read a lot of threads in this forum and have seen many posts about diacetyl going back at least a year. If I remember correctly it is in the DIY forum as a sticky.

 

[Antwoord]

Thank you Fiddles. I also apologize for my reaction. It has been a very stressful time and the thought of hurting someone that I love when I am trying to help them has really been bothering me. I have successfully quit smoking with my my EGO and wanted the same for my mother. It was because of her that I quit...after seeing her suffer I know it's something I never want to experience. I am still going to encourage her to vape but will make sure her juice is from a reputable company and Diacetyl free.

*hugs* I think using a PV is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. I use an ego as well. I'm completely for the entire industry raising it's standards, testing, and disclosure as well. I think it will take some time to do it right. I compared the amounts of diacetyl in e-liquid with those in analog cigarettes to calm people down so we could work better together to get the industry in better shape. Having a division among people could cause some suppliers to not improve, and then those suppliers would most likely be targeted for negative press and cases against vaping. But if we can all get on board, use what facts we can about the dangers of what's in our liquid, consider dosages and amounts, etc then I think that's a better way to change things for the better.

 

[SimpleSins]

I disagree that nobody had that information. I've been all over this forum prior to ordering juice from a supplier and that is how I knew to avoid it or only use it in small infrequent vapes. I've read a lot of threads in this forum and have seen many posts about diacetyl going back at least a year. If I remember correctly it is in the DIY forum as a sticky.

Perhaps embedded in one of the 100+ page threads, but there is no sticky labeled "diacetyl in flavorings" or anything along those lines. And if people were not aware that it could possibly be in their juice, they would not know to search for threads containing diacetyl. Apparently there are multiple people who assumed that a chemical shown to create respiratory problems while being inhaled in basically the same vaporized form we do but in larger quantities, would surely not be in our vaping liquids. Maybe naive, but I think a lot of people believed that in an industry's whose biggest selling point is that they are the safer alternative would err on the side of caution in ingredients. I really don't understand the reluctance to have vendor's make their use of diacetyl clear. Even if merely from a legal standpoint.

 

[DC2]

I disagree that nobody had that information. I've been all over this forum prior to ordering juice from a supplier and that is how I knew to avoid it or only use it in small infrequent vapes. I've read a lot of threads in this forum and have seen many posts about diacetyl going back at least a year. If I remember correctly it is in the DIY forum as a sticky.

I've been on this forum, for many hours each day for over 15 months, and never knew it was an issue.
I don't go into the DIY subforum, and probably never will.

And I want to thank everybody who has started, and contributed to all of these diacetyl threads, no matter where they stand.
I am very much closer to making an informed decision on which juices to buy than I was before.
And all based on an issue I was not even aware of.

I'm not going to say what my final thoughts are yet.
I'm not even sure we have gotten right to the bottom of this yet.

But thanks to all who didn't try to sweep it under a rug.

 

[bpaulette]

hear hear - despite the numerous threads, there are a LOT of vapers who still have no idea what diacetyl is... but some of the loudest voices in the anti-e-cig crowd are all over it... already citing it as a reason to have them banned. (which is why I can't fathom ignoring the issue - get it out of the juices now, and take away that ammo for chrissakes)

 

[LynGBH]

I knew diacetyl was not a good thing to be inhaling. I, perhaps naively, believed it was so obvious that no reputable supplier would have it in their e-liquids.

Mostly, I'm bumming because the FA flavors that include it are my favorites.
On the other hand, I can still use these particular flavors (Not the e-liquid. I've already tossed it.) to make yummy edibles. FA Butterscotch, vanilla ice cream, malt powder and a touch of milk can only be a wonderful thing, especially when blended with a shake mixer.

 

[FieryOne]

Perhaps embedded in one of the 100+ page threads, but there is no sticky labeled "diacetyl in flavorings" or anything along those lines. And if people were not aware that it could possibly be in their juice, they would not know to search for threads containing diacetyl. Apparently there are multiple people who assumed that a chemical shown to create respiratory problems while being inhaled in basically the same vaporized form we do but in larger quantities, would surely not be in our vaping liquids. Maybe naive, but I think a lot of people believed that in an industry's whose biggest selling point is that they are the safer alternative would err on the side of caution in ingredients. I really don't understand the reluctance to have vendor's make their use of diacetyl clear. Even if merely from a legal standpoint.

Clearly you don't understand my position. People need to take responsibility for themselves and do research and suppliers do need to disclose. My point of view is that diacetyl is harmful if you vape it all day every day. I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't recommend anyone do that. Would I vape something with it in there at all? Yes. Why? because in small trace amounts in low duration (length of vaping session) it is likely harmless. No I wouldn't do it every day. I believe that if it were highly dangerous, that with the dosage you get as a smoker, we'd have heard about boop way before popcorn lung. I also believe that this would have been outright banned by now and it hasn't been.

There are plently of vendors willing to disclose, and better yet, there are many suppliers that don't use flavors that contain diacetyl. That is the beauty of this forum information is available if we choose to seek it out. But the last two days and 3 or 4 threads on this has been a bit of an overreaction in my opinion...the information has been here for quite some time. That's all I'm saying.

 

[champions]

+1 ........

 

[bpaulette]

the information has been here for quite some time. That's all I'm saying.

I would tend to agree with you. ...but

I've been on this forum, for many hours each day for over 15 months, and never knew it was an issue.

that guy has one of the largest post counts I've seen, over 5k contributions to the board... and he'd never stumbled across it.

and what about all the people who aren't quite so internet savvy? i've talked to people who've been returning to the same mall kiosk for the last 6 months, not realizing there are better/cheaper alternatives. a co-worker's husband (who's vaped longer than I have) who didn't know PG was a humectant (probably doesn't even know what a "humectant" is), and was confused as to why he was severely dehydrated... information is powerful, but not everybody knows how to get at it

... and suppliers do need to disclose.

we're 100% in agreement there, my man. i just think that disclosure should be pretty blatant... as in perhaps even on the bottle, if it's so important to leave the dumb chemical in there at all

 

[FieryOne]

I would tend to agree with you. ...but



that guy has one of the largest post counts I've seen, over 5k contributions to the board... and he'd never stumbled across it.

and what about all the people who aren't quite so internet savvy? i've talked to people who've been returning to the same mall kiosk for the last 6 months, not realizing there are better/cheaper alternatives. a co-worker's husband (who's vaped longer than I have) who didn't know PG was a humectant (probably doesn't even know what a "humectant" is), and was confused as to why he was severely dehydrated... information is powerful, but not everybody knows how to get at it

I can agree. The new member forum...where we all start (us newer members) the first sticky is FAQ's and contains links to discussions that contain information on side effects and health concerns. I started there, so for me it was clear out of the gate. I guess for those that have been here for 15 months, they may not see that. I'm not saying it isn't a valid concern. I am just suprised that some don't know about the issue.

 

[StormFinch]

Might I make a suggestion? Instead of all the endless bantering about of the subject, why not start a consumer group? Consumers' Alliance Regarding E-Cigarette Safety (CARES) or something. Find out who wants to join, elect officers. Don't just focus on juice, but cover every safety point involving ecigs. Then professionally ask for ingredient reporting at the very least, along with childproofing. Design a seal that can be distributed to suppliers that shows they've gone the extra mile to prove their products are safe.

It's easy to sit here and debate the issue, but what's needed is someone, or a group of someones, to do something about it.

 

[Lyndagayle]

I think both sides have some valid points.

First off, 99% of the "anti-freeze" claims are NOT about the PG, it's about the DEG found in one sample by the FDA. Some people confuse the PG as the anti-freeze referred to, but that was not what the FDA was warning about.

While the comment "there is no safe level of diacetyl" sounds ominous, please bear in mind that the anti-tobacco zealots use that very same argument to keep smokers from switching to smokeless tobaccos - which aren't "safe" but are 98-99% safer than smoking. They say "this is not a safe alternative to smoking" while ignoring the benefits of the reduced harm. Nomad is correct that your risk is directly related to the concentration. E-cigarettes have never been intended to be risk-free or safe. They are a reduced harm product, which means that they still carry some risk - as do most things we are exposed to.

Think of it this way - seatbelts & airbags aren't 100% safe, either. There are groups who argue that they are MORE dangerous in an accident, because of deaths attributed to them. But, they are by-and-large attributed to saving more lives than taking them. Even with trace amounts of possible toxins, e-cigarettes have the potential to save many more lives than they could possibly risk.

PG has also not been tested long-term for the way we use it. So, it does seem a little alarmist to worry so much about possible trace elements of one chemical, when PG is still an unknown and nicotine use itself has known risks. If you are worried about it, avoid flavors with diacetyl or are unlabeled.

However, there is the argument that there is no need to add chemicals which are known to have higher risk, when they can so easily be avoided. And that the antis will probably latch onto diacetyl in the same manner as they do the DEG found and that would be a public relations nightmare. It seems foolish to give them any more ammunition. On the flip side, calling out vendors on forums (which the antis do read) only hands them the gun.

I personally believe vendors should list ingredients, including diacetyl, so consumers who are concerned can make an informed decision on their personal comfort level. It's something I've told vendors would be key to their future survival, as people would start voting their trust with their dollars. But the antis won't care that only some vendors use it - they'll point to the industry as a whole, like they did with the diet and erectile drugs some vendors put in e-cigs. So calling out vendors doesn't exactly help the overall cause, either.

So, while I agree that the levels of diacetyl are probably too low for concern - especially in relation to the relative risk of smoking - I also believe it's not the best choice for vendors to continue to use it if there are other options available. However, while discussing and informing vapers about diacetyl is one thing, calling out vendors and causing a panic only gives the antis a handy little list and more unproven reasons to ban e-cigarettes.

IMO, the responsible thing for vendors to do is either not add diacetyl (or any other known toxins which could easily be avoided) or label all liquids for transparency and the responsible thing for vapers to do is to not buy into the anti rhetoric that something needs to be 100% safe in order to improve public health. E-cigarettes are not a cure for nicotine addiction. They are a reduced harm smoking alternative and they are a CHOICE.

So, make your personal choice, but don't start a panic about vendors who use diacetyl or don't label. Simply vote with your dollar and the message will be sent without playing right into the antis hands.

Kristin, you have a unique way of presenting "balance" to heated discussions. We certainly don't need to be shooting our own soldiers. "United we stand, divided we fall" still rings true. Thank you.

 

[shanagan]

Kristin, to piggyback onto StormFinch's excellent suggestion, as a representative of the vaping community's current consumer advocacy group, may I ask the official stance of CASAA in re: diacetyl?

 

[Vvenus]

Might I make a suggestion? Instead of all the endless bantering about of the subject, why not start a consumer group? Consumers' Alliance Regarding E-Cigarette Safety (CARES) or something. Find out who wants to join, elect officers. Don't just focus on juice, but cover every safety point involving ecigs. Then professionally ask for ingredient reporting at the very least, along with childproofing. Design a seal that can be distributed to suppliers that shows they've gone the extra mile to prove their products are safe.

It's easy to sit here and debate the issue, but what's needed is someone, or a group of someones, to do something about it.

Excellent suggestion, IMO

 

[Travis798]

Seriously people? We are going to make a huge fuss and demand vendors not use a specific flavoring because the health effects are unknown while ignoring the fact that the long term effects of PG inhalation are also unknown as Kristin has pointed out several times?

It's really simple. Some vendors will disclose, some won't. If you will only buy from a vendor that discloses, that is your right, and you help them to profit by disclosing. If you are not bothered by diacetyl and prefer the flavor it gives certain juices, you should have the right to buy and vape it. Anybody that gets into vaping at this point has a duty to research it themselves. If they do not, we should not demand that vendors babysit them and disclose everything that may or may not be potentially harmful from vaping just because they are too lazy to check it out themselves.

I can see it now.

WARNING: Some of our products contain nicotine. While nicotine is not known to be immediately dangerous to life and health in the small quantities you receive from vaping, you should be aware of the potential harm. Please do not drink the juice or pour it in your eye, as that may hurt.

WARNING: Atomizers may get hot. Please do not lick it with your tongue after vaping.

WARNING: There are no studies on the long term effects of PG inhalation. Please use at your own risk, or don't inhale, but it may still irritate your mouth and dry you out. Also please know that PG is a known respiratory irritant, just so you have all the facts.

WARNING: Batteries can be dangerous if used improperly. Please use only as directed. Do not poke in eye.

WARNING: Everything we sell here can potentially be dangerous and/or life threatening. Please do not use any of our products as a sex toy.

WARNING: Now that you are way too scared to vape, please remember that cigarettes and/or chew/snuff/snus/tobacco/nicotine of any kind may not be good for you.

WARNING: We are sure to have missed some things not good for you and someone will complain. It is also very possible that other warnings may arise in the future as we figure out the long term effects of inhaling all kinds of things that are not meant nor studied for inhalation.