2nd hand nicotine from vaping?

[chebird]

I have read a lot of posts/threads on why or why not to vape indoors, and I have developed my own policies and thoughts on the matter. Thanks to this forum I feel pretty well informed on the benefits/drawbacks of vaping. I am active in going to self help groups and at these meetings it has become a problem with other members vaping indoors, A friend of mine who still smokes brings up a good point, and this is my question; does anyone dispute that those who vape indoors are subjecting non smokers to 2nd hand nicotine? I havent heard this talked about here so i thought I would bring it up, as we consider adding a no e-cig clause to our meeting format.

 

[klynnn]

I think the results of most tests speak for themselves. There is very little residual nicotene or other hazardous chems in vaping residue. It sounds like you have an agenda. People love to put others down for a good reason but this isn't one of them.

 

[Photon55]

Is second hand nic harmful? By all accounts I'm aware of nicotine itself is not harmful, especially in amounts from 2nd hand vaping. It's all the by-products of 2nd hand smoking that is considered dangerous, right?

 

[alisa1970]

I have read a lot of posts/threads on why or why not to vape indoors, and I have developed my own policies and thoughts on the matter. Thanks to this forum I feel pretty well informed on the benefits/drawbacks of vaping. I am active in going to self help groups and at these meetings it has become a problem with other members vaping indoors, A friend of mine who still smokes brings up a good point, and this is my question; does anyone dispute that those who vape indoors are subjecting non smokers to 2nd hand nicotine? I havent heard this talked about here so i thought I would bring it up, as we consider adding a no e-cig clause to our meeting format.

No, this isn't accurate. Here's the latest meta-analysis on "second-hand vapor" (bolding mine):

In summary, analysis of the current state of knowledge about the chemistry of contaminants in liquids and aerosols
associated with electronic cigarettes indicates that there is no evidence that vaping produces inhalable exposures to
these contaminants at a level that would prompt measures to reduce exposure by the standards that are used to ensure
safety of workplaces.

http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/media/files/publichealth/ms08.pdf

More:

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf

5. Safety of Ruyan® e-cigarette ‘smoke’ for bystanders.
Method. Analysis of published data on nicotine absorption, and informal comments of
bystanders, and observation of e-cigarette smoking indoors.

Results. Cigarette smoke is a mixture of sidestream smoke and exhaled mainstream
smoke. In constrast, the e-cigarette generates no sidestream smoke from its (artificially
lit) tip. Any exhaled PG mist visibly dissipates to vapor within seconds. Non-smoking
bystanders do not find the mist unpleasant. The mist is odorless, and those close by
quickly realize it does not have the odor of smoke or the irritating quality of tobacco
cigarette smoke.

Comments. Inhaled nicotine in cigarette smoke is over 98% absorbed 6, and so the
exhaled mist of the e-cigarette is composed of propylene glycol, and probably contains
almost no nicotine; and no CO. (see Figure 3.5) Lacking any active ingredient or any
gaseous products of combustion, the PG mist or ‘smoke’ is not harmful to bystanders.
The ‘smoke’ or mist is not tobacco smoke, and not from combustion – no flame is lit –
and is not defined as environmental tobacco smoke. E-cigarette “smoking” would be
permitted under New Zealand’s Smoke-free Environments Act 1990.33
32

 

[BabyCrusher]

does anyone dispute that those who vape indoors are subjecting non smokers to 2nd hand nicotine? I havent heard this talked about here so i thought I would bring it up, as we consider adding a no e-cig clause to our meeting format.

People never cease to amaze me

 

[Orb Skewer]

If you find a testing machine big enough and expensive enough you will find everything your looking for.

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

I'm exposing people to carbon monoxide every time I exhale, vaping or not. Let's ban breathing indoors.

 

[Uma]

Supposing every Vaper on earth vaped 24mg nicotine? Supposing every Vaper on earth vaped the same coil resistance, same volts, same tank, same mix of pg/VG?
What are the suppositions?
I imagine every once in awhile a TRACE of nicotine will be found. Proving that TRACE came from an eCig instead of from the boiling pot of potatoes at the diner next door, or the steaming tomato in a dish, might be extravagantly difficult. A TRACE is something like particles per billion. A grain of salt has over a million particles. That's far more than a TRACE of nicotine that might escape. Something like 0.008 TRACE is particles ber billion or million, whatever, but it is none the less, far lower than any threshold of danger.
Taking into account that at any given moment, each Vaper is vaping a totally different from one another nic mg, even a "consistent theory" fails miserably. Especially when some are vaping zero nicotine, others only 6mg, etc

 

[alisa1970]

Oh, and of course, the Clearstream/Flavour Art study:

Among all, the most interesting aspects
we observed was that nicotine was not detected in air
during the e-smoking session, although liquids used
for experiments contained it.

5 vapers using e-cigarettes for 5h in a small
room without renewal of indoor air do not produce
detectable levels of nicotine in the air.

http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CSA_ItaEng.pdf


Are we done now?

 

[Uma]

Nicotine is beneficial to many. It improves cognitive skills, focus, and more. I can almost always tell when I run across a person who doesn't use nicotine at all. Somebody forgot to eat their vegetables....

 

[klynnn]

These people are never done.

 

[p.opus]

A friend of your's who still smokes brings up a good point? Sounds like the friend of yours is looking to pick a fight. Because he is not allowed to smoke during meetings, he has a resentment against those who vape.

If the "self help" meeting is similar to the one's I've been to, not long ago, people packed those "smoke filled rooms" because they were willing to do whatever it takes. One wonders how serious some people are about their recovery to make another person's vaping interfere with that.

I would also like to point out that a mere 10 grams of of eggplant has the same amount of nicotine as a person would receive in over 4 hours of exposure to second hand smoke. Vape contains less nicotine than smoke.

The point is, your "friend" and any "non-smoker" at your meetings is exposed to more nicotine in the course of their daily lives than they are close to being exposed for the 1 hour at your meeting.

Nicotine is a naturally occurring substance in many vegetables.

The Nicotine Content of Vegetables

Personally I would feel that vaping at a meeting is an outside issue, and if there was ever a business meeting in which that was discussed, I would mention this.

I think several members of your meeting need to perform their own inventory and not look for reasons to hold resentments towards other people at your meeting.

At the self help meetings I attend, the motto "Live and Let Live" is displayed predominantly. Perhaps some people in your meetings need to be reminded of that.

 

[BillyWJ]

I have read a lot of posts/threads on why or why not to vape indoors, and I have developed my own policies and thoughts on the matter. Thanks to this forum I feel pretty well informed on the benefits/drawbacks of vaping. I am active in going to self help groups and at these meetings it has become a problem with other members vaping indoors, A friend of mine who still smokes brings up a good point, and this is my question; does anyone dispute that those who vape indoors are subjecting non smokers to 2nd hand nicotine? I havent heard this talked about here so i thought I would bring it up, as we consider adding a no e-cig clause to our meeting format.

I dispute it vigorously.

And, having had some experience with help groups, why do you want to deny someone from using a device that can reduce their stress and calm them in a very stressful environment? Is it better to disrupt the group with people leaving constantly to vape, or getting edgy and nervous as their need to get some nic increases? I kind of think it runs counter to the supportive aspect of such a meeting. I hated that they banned smoking at such meets, all the while understanding why, but I could see the negative effects on the smokers - instead of focusing on the discussion, all they thought about was smoke breaks. (Myself included).

 

[p.opus]

I dispute it vigorously.

And, having had some experience with help groups, why do you want to deny someone from using a device that can reduce their stress and calm them in a very stressful environment? Is it better to disrupt the group with people leaving constantly to vape, or getting edgy and nervous as their need to get some nic increases? I kind of think it runs counter to the supportive aspect of such a meeting. I hated that they banned smoking at such meets, all the while understanding why, but I could see the negative effects on the smokers - instead of focusing on the discussion, all they thought about was smoke breaks. (Myself included).

Hear, Hear!!!! I had the opportunity to share at one of the meetings in my area that still allowed smoking. I was a smoker at the time and thought it would be heaven! As a smoker, the room was pretty overwhelming by the end of the meeting, to the point that my eyes were watering... So I get the smoking ban, and I appreciate it.

But at that time, I was (and I am still) willing to do whatever it takes to make my recovery my number one priority, and if that meant going into a smokey room to help ensure that, then that's what I did.

Considering the life and death issues that these meetings address, it's laughable that someone would be concerned about the negligible content of vape. Especially considering the toxins that they used to subject themselves to willingly.

 

[WillyZee]

just print off some of the studies alisa1970 has posted and bring them to the next meeting.

 

[six]

As already pointed out, second hand nic exposure has indeed been disputed and in fact debunked. Further, even if it existed, there is nothing at all indicating nic is harmful. It simply exists in nature and you would be exposed to it daily with or without e-cigs, tobacco, etc. Ate anything with tomato in it in the last few days? If so, you have nic in your system.

I'll go a little further. -- OK. Let's say you are vaping 18mg per ml. How long does your meeting last? A couple of hours? You might consume maybe a ml if you chainvaped the whole time... So, let's say just for the sake of argument (even though this is obviously false) that your body did not absorb any of that 18 milligrams of nic and all of it was in the vapor you exhaled. How big is that room? 16 feet wide - 24 feet long - and 10 feet high? (something like that is pretty common for meeting rooms) So, you have around 3800 cubic feet of air in that room and you've put 18 milligrams of nic in the air. - and you've put 1 milliliter of VG or PG in 107,000 liters of air... Yeah. That already non-existent exposure is pretty well in perspective now.

 

[AgentAnia]

I havent heard this talked about here so i thought I would bring it up, as we consider adding a no e-cig clause to our meeting format.

Actually the constituents of "2nd hand vapor" have been discussed on ECF quite a lot, as the ready supply of links to studies here may tell you. As science and scientific technology advances, substances in parts per billion become measurable, but just because they can be identified, in ppb, doesn't mean they present a danger to anyone.

If I were you, I'd start looking for another self-help group, one that is less puritanical and better informed.

 

[generic mutant]

If vaping bothers people it bothers people, you as a group need to decide how to deal with that...

But yeah, I'd strongly suspect that they'd be just as bothered by non-nic liquid (assuming they didn't realise it was any different).

 

[p.opus]

If I were you, I'd start looking for another self-help group, one that is less puritanical and better informed.

The heck with puritanical and better informed...How about a meeting that actually adhere's to it's primary purpose. Unless the meeting is a meeting of Nicotine Anonymous, then I would bet that focusing on vaping is not focusing on their primary purpose.

 

[Nermal]

Keep in mind that your friend who still smokes is not only releasing nicotine and other combustion products when exhaling; she is producing the same when she is waving that cigarette around, or leaving it in the ashtray. Not that I'm endorsing the idea that second hand smoke is much of a health problem, but she really doesn't have the high ground in the discussion.