The conversion of an anti vaping/anti smoking activist to pro vaping.

[charlie1465]

This is worth a look....our American friends could do with diffusing this over there to try and spark some logical debate. Hope it's helpful although it covers specific user groups.

To be honest this is fairly typical of the common sense that prevails around issues that arise in the UK and Europe.

 

[Don29palms]

Yeah common sense in the UK? That's an oxymoron like silent thunder.

 

[stols001]

Yeah common sense anywhere? That's an oxymoron like silent thunder.

LOL fixed that for you.....

Anna

 

[Don29palms]

LOL fixed that for you.....

Anna

It's truly sad that common sense has become a thing of the past.

 

[CMD-Ky]

This is worth a look....our American friends could do with diffusing this over there to try and spark some logical debate. Hope it's helpful although it covers specific user groups.

To be honest this is fairly typical of the common sense that prevails around issues that arise in the UK and Europe.

We in the USofA no longer debate using common sense, nor do we use logic; our debates quickly degenerate in to loud abusive emotional binges. It is all that most of us have to offer. We, as a nation, (with a few exceptions I being one, of course), have become intellectually incompetent but we all have good grades in school, no feelings are hurt and we treasure our participation trophies.

 

[stols001]

I can tell a person's political leanings by using the one phrase: "I never let my kid accept a participation trophy because, you know, l always figured participation WAS the trophy."

They are usually either nodding enthusiastically, or like, backing a way hastily by that point.

Anna

 

[Jebbn]

Yeah common sense in the UK? That's an oxymoron like silent thunder.

Said the guy living in Kalifornia.

 

[charlie1465]

It's truly sad that common sense has become a thing of the past.

Did you watch the video at all, perhaps, any chance, even just a little bit

 

[Hawise]

We, as a nation, (with a few exceptions I being one, of course), have become intellectually incompetent but we all have good grades in school, no feelings are hurt and we treasure our participation trophies.

I can tell a person's political leanings by using the one phrase: "I never let my kid accept a participation trophy because, you know, l always figured participation WAS the trophy."

They are usually either nodding enthusiastically, or like, backing a way hastily by that point.

I think both sides of the participation trophy discussion really tend to underestimate children. Young isn't the same as stupid. Something everyone gets is at most a memento; it doesn't mean enough to any child I've met to enhance their self-concept or to convince them that the world should reward them for every action they undertake. A 'participation trophy' simply isn't significant enough to have any of the effects adults seem to expect them to.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

Well, that devolved rather quickly...

 

[jandrew]

Well, that devolved rather quickly...

Indeed, and don't forget ... since you posted ...

 

[stols001]

Young isn't the same as stupid. Something everyone gets is at most a memento; it doesn't mean enough to any child I've met to enhance their self-concept or to convince them that the world should reward them for every action they undertake. A 'participation trophy' simply isn't significant enough to have any of the effects adults seem to expect them to.

Look the participation trophy is shorthand. Parents who allow that (censored) also tend to do stuff like go in to school and argue a B into an A, indulge their child's every desire, breastfeeds til age five, cosleeps until the kid's a teenager, the list goes on.

It mattered very much *to me* that my kid not be a snowflake so I did a LOT of none of the above, and it WORKED. When my kid wanted to switch back to his first teacher after being moved, he WORKED it out HIMSELF with the principal. I found out about it (hilariously) via reading a journal he had to keep.

He did not feel the need to COME to me. When I went to school to argue it was to point out a video game drawing because the kid was bored was not Columbine 2, that sort of stuff.

He is at his first real full-time job and they are *gagging* for him to be a manager, one because he's great (he keeps getting bonuses) but ALSO because the DEARTH of ANY people in his age group to do what my kid can do.

At 21, it's s great TIME to not be a snowflake.

Rejecting the participation trophies is NOT going along with the herd. THAT was a freaking HERD that I did not much care for, frankly.

My kiddo was gonna be great. but I also raised him right. I also stayed home and scrubbed houses so he could be with me until school. Like I said, I raised him right. He had his moments but he is crazy well adjusted.

My main fear is him not finding a GF that isn't NUTS.

Anna

 

[CMD-Ky]

I think both sides of the participation trophy discussion really tend to underestimate children. Young isn't the same as stupid. Something everyone gets is at most a memento; it doesn't mean enough to any child I've met to enhance their self-concept or to convince them that the world should reward them for every action they undertake. A 'participation trophy' simply isn't significant enough to have any of the effects adults seem to expect them to.

A participation trophy makes to giver feel good, I agree that the child understands that it has no value.

 

[muth]

This is worth a look....our American friends could do with diffusing this over there to try and spark some logical debate. Hope it's helpful although it covers specific user groups.

To be honest this is fairly typical of the common sense that prevails around issues that arise in the UK and Europe.

I'm going to share this with my doctor friend. She's the one who called me to get some info on vaping devices for her patients. Her hospital is open to vaping and she works with a research head who has done nothing but research smoking cessation and harm reduction for the past 20 years. Thank you, Charlie

 

[muth]

My main fear is him not finding a GF that isn't NUTS.

LOL
He sounds to me to be the kind of man who will not only attract "his own kind" but will be able to discern the nut jobs from the nice and kind ones. As long as he understands that it's not his job to "fix" anyone.

 

[stols001]

So, what would be the thought process to "I am being given this thing for participating, I understand it has no value." Over and over and over.

Would it be "Everything I do has merit?" I assume that was the goal.

Or would it be, "I am being meaninglessly rewarded for everything I do,.., What I do doesn't matter?"

Or, even more perniciously, "I can do what ever I do or do not want, over time, because it's all meaningless, and by the way I am too?

Behavioral principles (and they work) really ALSO MEAN that REWARDING someone for SUCKING produces MORE SUCKING. Even if it is a "meaningless award."

Really what should happen is what USED to happen, the losers file quietly off the field and sit moping with their parents while their parents say stuff like "We will practice more." And, "Not everyone can win all the time" During this time, the winners get the trophies, and the kids are like "Okay the adults around me are not NUTS."

WHY should parents do DUMB NUTS stuff, over and over, until the kids have NO respect for their parents, and feel the world is INSANE>??????

I could go on. I actually think I want to write an editorial on this somewhere, then the Californians and Hilary even can COME SMITE ME.

Seriously y'all? Have you SEEN today's young adults? Thank GOD for the military and Texas is ALL I can say.

No Bueno. Nope.

Anna

 

[Jazzman]

Good video @charlie1465 . A bit dumbed down, but appropriate for non-smokers I think. I do wish something would have been thrown in about the safer alternative to smoking, but I think that is already understood in the European market it was meant for. It would have been a nice addition for the US market though. Well worth the watch, thanks for posting this.

 

[Eskie]

LOL
He sounds to me to be the kind of man who will not only attract "his own kind" but will be able to discern the nut jobs from the nice and kind ones. As long as he understands that it's not his job to "fix" anyone.

Having once been 21, I can assure you it's tougher than it sounds.

There is a theme that's been running through threads of late and that's the whole kids and flavors thing with the associated political nightmares discussions. What I find interesting (but I am easily distracted) is that right at the time we have real, reasonably solid medical and scientific research supporting vaping for us exsmokers the flavor thing pops up. Those who lobbied and screamed the loudest about the dangers of vaping dropped that line and instead went after flavors. They recognize that shutting down vaping together is increasingly untenable with the positive stuff being accepted in the medical community and instead have this "tobacco" flavor only, of course with zero idea what that flavor even is. Let's face it, they never smoked so how do they know what it tastes like?

I expect after there are draconian regulations passed on flavored juice (I don't see a ban ever happening, just more paperwork and associated higher costs and taxes to support it all) they'll find something else. My bet is on second hand vapor. The data on that is pretty solid that it's no risk but they'll find a way to twist it. After that, it'll be another aspect. It's the classic "I know what I believe and you can't change my mind " situation. Folks don't realize that belief is like faith, there is no proof required. There is never enough evidence that can ever change a belief. Pretty much like vaccinations. Or a multitude of other well known, well documented issues that are rejected out of "I don't believe it" rather than logical evaluation. Vaping has just gotten tossed in with all the other issues that are "debated" these days (and debate doesn't affect beliefs either). It's a dangerous mindset that is progressively preventing society from ever taking logical actions. Hopefully the Enlightenment will occur a bit faster this time than the last time we were mired in a dark age governed not by reason but by dogma.

 

[muth]

Having once been 21, I can assure you it's tougher than it sounds.

There is a theme that's been running through threads of late and that's the whole kids and flavors thing with the associated political nightmares discussions. What I find interesting (but I am easily distracted) is that right at the time we have real, reasonably solid medical and scientific research supporting vaping for us exsmokers the flavor thing pops up. Those who lobbied and screamed the loudest about the dangers of vaping dropped that line and instead went after flavors. They recognize that shutting down vaping together is increasingly untenable with the positive stuff being accepted in the medical community and instead have this "tobacco" flavor only, of course with zero idea what that flavor even is. Let's face it, they never smoked so how do they know what it tastes like?

I expect after there are draconian regulations passed on flavored juice (I don't see a ban ever happening, just more paperwork and associated higher costs and taxes to support it all) they'll find something else. My bet is on second hand vapor. The data on that is pretty solid that it's no risk but they'll find a way to twist it. After that, it'll be another aspect. It's the classic "I know what I believe and you can't change my mind " situation. Folks don't realize that belief is like faith, there is no proof required. There is never enough evidence that can ever change a belief. Pretty much like vaccinations. Or a multitude of other well known, well documented issues that are rejected out of "I don't believe it" rather than logical evaluation. Vaping has just gotten tossed in with all the other issues that are "debated" these days (and debate doesn't affect beliefs either). It's a dangerous mindset that is progressively preventing society from ever taking logical actions. Hopefully the Enlightenment will occur a bit faster this time than the last time we were mired in a dark age governed not by reason but by dogma.

Yes, it sounds grim. It doesn't matter how much evidence you have because of "arrogance". It's peoples' refusal to acquiesce to the truth because then they have admit they were wrong. Their arrogance just won't allow them to do that.

 

[Eskie]

Yes, it sounds grim. It doesn't matter how much evidence you have because of "arrogance". It's peoples' refusal to acquiesce to the truth because then they have admit they were wrong. Their arrogance just won't allow them to do that.

I agree. I also find it troublesome that political beliefs are dragged in, from Communism (I totally don't get that one, although it is communist China that makes over 99% of our vape gear and I don't see any boycotts of those products around here) to the now endless it's the "left democratic socialists at fault who all want a New World Order ". Yet one of the worst vape laws ever signed was in Indiana by then Governor Pence that was so outrageous it was tossed out in federal court on the first round, federal threats of nationwide flavor bans under a republican administration (can't deny that one, even Gottleib is a republican who we liked until now) to new threatening legislation in Arkansas under a republican governor (Asa Hutchinson).

Sure, CA has a lot of democrats but Sacramento has been and remains a strong republican political body. We've had republican presidents out of CA (Nixon and Reagan as relative contemporary examples, no reaching back to the 1800's) and a very odd form of self governance where the citizens get to vote on binding propositions on all sorts of stuff (can't say thats not a democracy when the people are the ones voting for the stuff).

And yes, plenty of annoying democrats in the mix. Between Pelosi and Schumer congress is ----- up with them in their positions. But the point is casting it all as politically motivated by one particular party is utter nonsense and those arguments are discrediting the voice of vapers. It's not a partisan issue. And until there's both a willingness and an open mind to understand the players in BOTH parties, it's a classic divide and conquer with us as the losers.

In general (not just about vaping) both parties bring good and bad ideas to the table. They should be judged by the idea, not who brought it to the table.