The information is out there--it's up to every user (of anything, really) to find it and make an informed decision.
The Diketone Debate: Which Position Do you Take?
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The information is out there--it's up to every user (of anything, really) to find it and make an informed decision.
Yes, Kate was making inquiries 6 years ago and getting same responses (none/sketchy) as some people in the DIY topic were getting last year.
Now, however, we know that a simple TEST can identify what is in eliquid.
There was a tree about to fall onto the road out in the remote area where I live. We all got tired of calling the people in charge o the roads and being ignored....so we blocked off the road with cones, and got some logger guys to cut it down in a safe manner, and it was quick and we all just chipped in to pay them.
So you are right ...people CAN find information they need to make an informed decision.
If a vaper got 10 or so people together who all liked the same ADV, they could pool their money and pay the equivalent of what it would cost to order a 30ml bottle and submit it for testing. I foresee a kind of co-op site growing, on a hosted site, where these transactions could take place........and results could also be published.
If vendors are selling juice and don't want to be bothered testing, there is nothing stopping a customer from doing it themselves, and its really not cost prohibitive when people combine resources.
Its discouraging simply because more people being aware means more pressure on manufacturers and vendors to test. I don't personally care what Joe and Jane Blow vapes. I want people to know so it can benefit me.
Its not been my experience that people *generally* go looking for info to crash their own party. Avoidance of anxiety seems to prevail.
I wish I had an ADV (still looking for one I like enough for that) and knew enough people cause Id be all over that idea to pool money for testing!!! Id would still participate even if it wasn't something I used all the time if people here would like to do something like this.
Its not been my experience that people *generally* go looking for info to crash their own party. Avoidance of anxiety seems to prevail.
I wish I had an ADV (still looking for one I like enough for that) and knew enough people cause Id be all over that idea to pool money for testing!!! Id would still participate even if it wasn't something I used all the time if people here would like to do something like this.
You know the worst thing about an "ADV"? When it STOPS being an ADV! 
It's really a good thing I like this blueberry muffin/banana nut bread so well, because the Virginia just keeps tasting worse and worse to me -- and I once thought that was the only ejuice worth talking about!
I guess it's just my tastebuds healing, but I do wish they'd get on with it and stop changing everytime the wind blows.
(Zelphie... I lived in SE Michigan for about 5 yrs... Downriver Detroit (Southgate, Trenton), then Oakland County (Lk Orion, Pontiac).)
Andria
It's really a good thing I like this blueberry muffin/banana nut bread so well, because the Virginia just keeps tasting worse and worse to me -- and I once thought that was the only ejuice worth talking about!
I guess it's just my tastebuds healing, but I do wish they'd get on with it and stop changing everytime the wind blows.
(Zelphie... I lived in SE Michigan for about 5 yrs... Downriver Detroit (Southgate, Trenton), then Oakland County (Lk Orion, Pontiac).)
Andria
I specifically noted that it would be on independenty hosted site, domain name, etc.
can't be done here, there are vendors who pay to have forums here and it would represent a rather large conflict of interest.
Also would not be fair to owners/mods of this site to have to maintain a database like that, nor deal w/all the questions and arrangements. Good legal representation, and a bullet proof way to get eliquids to the lab w/out implications that juice was tampered with, etc. so as to avoid suiciide bunny redux.
I just DIY now and only spend $ with one vendor. That's "Avoidance of anxiety" for me. I use a seatbelt in the car and dont burn brush on windy days, etc............ i.e. avoid avoidable risk.
You know the worst thing about an "ADV"? When it STOPS being an ADV!
It's really a good thing I like this blueberry muffin/banana nut bread so well, because the Virginia just keeps tasting worse and worse to me -- and I once thought that was the only ejuice worth talking about!
I guess it's just my tastebuds healing, but I do wish they'd get on with it and stop changing everytime the wind blows.
(Zelphie... I lived in SE Michigan for about 5 yrs... Downriver Detroit (Southgate, Trenton), then Oakland County (Lk Orion, Pontiac).)
Andria
Oh you used to live pretty close to me then! I live in Port Huron. That small hole in the wall down where I94 comes to die
Small world.. Maybe you've had the pleasure.Speaking of ADV's, there was a few times where I thought I might have had one but then it gets reformulated or my tastes change.
I really hate the perpetual search for something I really love. So frustrating!
I specifically noted that it would be on independenty hosted site, domain name, etc.
can't be done here, there are vendors who pay to have forums here and it would represent a rather large conflict of interest.
Good legal representation, and a bullet proof way to get eliquids to the lab w/out implications that juice was tampered with, etc. so as to avoid suiciide bunny redux.
I just DIY now and only spend $ with one vendor. That's "Avoidance of anxiety" for me. I use a seatbelt in the car and dont burn brush on windy days, etc............ i.e. avoid avoidable risk.
I realize that I couldn't be held here, just meant people who have met here, but probably not I suppose. I cant say I would have any idea how the logistics would work. Perhaps in theory...
Does anyone know the "acceptable" figure for acetoin?
A friend offered to PIF me some flavors, and he gave me a list to pick from, stuff he had a lot of. I went over the list by bullcityvapor's listings, checking to see which ones either had the 'caution' bg, or did not; one that appeared safe when I checked, now is showing the caution bg -- FlavorWest Cinnamon roll. When I go into detail view, it shows 0.371% for acetoin -- but I don't know how that compares to whatever an "acceptable" level might be.
Andria
A friend offered to PIF me some flavors, and he gave me a list to pick from, stuff he had a lot of. I went over the list by bullcityvapor's listings, checking to see which ones either had the 'caution' bg, or did not; one that appeared safe when I checked, now is showing the caution bg -- FlavorWest Cinnamon roll. When I go into detail view, it shows 0.371% for acetoin -- but I don't know how that compares to whatever an "acceptable" level might be.
Andria
Well to some people, there is no acceptable figure. For others, "let 'er rip!"
Right, I know, and I'm much closer to the former than to the latter. But if I had some idea of the published "maximum safe" amount, I could better judge exactly how bad this stuff is. I wouldn't have bought this, or even asked my friend to include it in what he sent if I'd known the acetoin was in there, but when I first checked, it didn't have that "caution" bg -- I guess that's a recent update at bullcity. Now that it's here, I wanted to get some idea of just how bad it is, before I just arbitrarily toss it. I'm told it's very good, and I really do hate waste, so if the "maximum safe" is FAR higher than what's shown for this flavor, I might risk it, and just see if it causes me any breathing issues as that suspect-ejuice did.
Andria
I think that if the actual concentrate itself contains .371%, just use it sparingly (like less than .5%). I have some flavors that are uber heavy on diketones, so I first make a 10% (or lower) dilution of that and then add that in at 1% (or lower) and it's surprising how well the flavor comets through, but without that greasy taste. I tired it with a 20% dilution and adding it in a 2% and it was way too much -- but some people use that same flavor straight at 20%. YIKES!
I am not on the 100% avoidance side; I use the sparingly.
Thx! That sounds like a good plan! I was also thinking, doing it the way you said, AND not using it in my all day/every day vape, but only in juices I might vape as a "break," a treat, something special, would also greatly reduce exposure to it.
The ones I'm going to use in my ADV, I make sure there are NO diketones of any kind. I figure, it might not come out EXACTLY like a blueberry muffin, but if it's close -- identifiably blueberry, sweet, and tasty -- I could live with that. I mix it with DIY banana nut bread anyway (that has no diketones either), so close is good enough.
Thx!
Andria
It's crazy making pre-dilutions before adding to the final liquid (another dilution). I just tried a liquid I had sitting for a week and I used TPA's Caramel Candy in a 10% dilution, and then added that in at .5% -- I still get the nice "body" of the flavoring (diketone), but none of that heavy-chest feeling I get when I tried it at .5% straight. I tried most of the diketone flavorings at low, medium and high percentages just to see -- IMO, they were more like some of the new-fangled liquids out there, but just over-the-top and no bueno in terms of my preferences of taste. At my .5 of a 10% dilution, I feel good enough ("safe" enough) with that percentage to use -- but I don't vape incessantly to begin with and I prefer to vape unflavored anyway, so I am at ultra-low levels when I do use it. It's super hard to never use them if trying to really build a complex-dessert liquids, but super easy to use them ultra low and still receive their flavoring benefits (and presumably minimal risks).
I do wonder sometimes when I see others using those flavors at high percentages. I think it has to be a bit of a reconditioning to appreciate low flavoring percentages or something, becasue the more I cut down on flavoring the more I can't stand obnoxiously high flavoring.
I don't believe NIOSH has come up with any set number as far as acceptable levels of Acetoin. It is not an alpha diketone and i don't believe it has been as well studied as diacetyl and A P. Dr. Farsalinos seems to believe it is only an issue because it can oxidize into diacetyl in some conditions. But it is structurally similar to diacetyl and i have heard of at least some studies that say it's a lung irritant.
Use sparingly and err on the side of caution, seems to be as good a guideline as any imo.
Use sparingly and err on the side of caution, seems to be as good a guideline as any imo.
Makes sense. Actually when I was still vaping that Virginia regularly, I liked it so much better than other tobaccos precisely *because* virginia is a very light, delicate flavor -- I don't vape at very high heat either, usually about 8-10 watts. But, given than I'm now switching over to the sweeter flavors, and my tastebuds are still pretty new to non-smoker status, I tend to like fairly heavy flavoring nowadays, and I do like those complex bakery flavors; 5 or 6 flavors at 1%-5% each seems to give a much better flavor than one at 20% -- which can be really horrid, depending on the juice. I do much the same thing in cooking, since I like a lot of different soups, casseroles, and stir-fry type meals, where many flavors blend for a rich savory experience. I enjoy it with cooking, so I'm finding it quite entertaining to experiment with DIY ejuice.
Andria
Interesting PBusardo interview with the head of marketing of nJoy. He discusses their diacetyl and A P testing around the 30 minute mark :
A PBusardo Interview - Meet Geoff from NJOY & The Upcoming Artist Collection - YouTube
I am stunned by the 180 nJoy has pulled in the last year with their entry into the flavor market. I have tried some of their flavors and Double Espresso and Vanilla Bean are solid imo. They are also coming out with an Artist Collection line in late November. One liquid each, designed by five different liquid makers.
https://ac.njoy.com/#products
A PBusardo Interview - Meet Geoff from NJOY & The Upcoming Artist Collection - YouTube
I am stunned by the 180 nJoy has pulled in the last year with their entry into the flavor market. I have tried some of their flavors and Double Espresso and Vanilla Bean are solid imo. They are also coming out with an Artist Collection line in late November. One liquid each, designed by five different liquid makers.
https://ac.njoy.com/#products
Another diluter-unflavored vaper here. Most flavors annoy me; I like the very act of vaping, and I like my nic (with or without a few drops of unflavored WTA eliquid). I enjoy subtle flavors--never could vape anything strong. I always have a bottle of good unflavored base, most recently it's either Vapers Tek or Nude Nicotine, and I mix it with my favorite commercial eliquids.
Wow! That's amazing!
How's that espresso? I'm always interested in a good coffee vape--as long as it's creamy and smooth and just a little sweet, but I want the juice to be clear and translucent--I don't vape dark juices any more.
It's really quite good. None of that popcorn taste i get with a lot of coffees. Not too much cream, but a bit of sweetness and a really good strong coffee imo. You will have no problem diluting it considerably and still getting the coffee flavor. It's a light colored juice, lighter than most coffees i have tried.
Wow! I didn't see those types of flavors coming from Njoy. Dragonscape sounds crazy amazing!! I will be stalking their release.
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