The Diketone Debate: Which Position Do you Take?

[AndriaD]

nyiddle supports the FDA regulating eliquid contents to get "poison juices" off the market.
Oh, and he's concerned about 2nd hand effects should they remain.

I'm *somewhat* concerned about the 2nd hand effects myself, mainly just because diketones have the potential to completely destroy the lungs -- it's one thing if a person chooses to disregard that for him/her self, but quite another to inflict it on others without their knowledge or consent. However I lack sufficient info to know if this is a real concern for the trace quantities that would be all that could possibly exist in 2nd hand vapor. Another case of something that really needs careful testing, to know if a real danger exists here.

I think the limit of the FDA's involvement should be to require the disclosure of the ingredients. Big Nanny is far too big for his britches already, and needs to be firmly put in his place, but consumers have the right to know what they are buying, for whatever their purpose in the use of the item. If they're planning to cook something using that flavor, no issue whatever -- but for vaping, that's a horse of a far different color.

I think that as the vaping industry continues to grow, we might very well see lines of flavors specially formulated for that purpose, which do not contain any diketones whatever -- so that if a person is foolhardy enough to actually want to vape those substances, they could just buy the food type flavors, rather than the vape type flavors. But, I still think research is needed, to determine if the 2nd hand vapor of diketone-included ejuice could pose any risk to bystanders. If such flavor lines do become available, I could well imagine an FDA requirement that ejuice manufacturers use ONLY the vape-flavor type, and I'm not sure that's too intrusive -- those who are not able or willing to DIY their own ejuice should still be protected from greedy businesses who care only for profits.

Andria

 

[Steamix]

Won't be the end of it ....

We always need to remember that we're inhaling flavours which weren't exactly made for that purpose - and often in concentrations way above the mixing recommendations for food preparations. While it *may* be fairly safe to ingest or catch the occasional whiff ( flavour is tasted largely by receptors in the nasal cavitiy; our tongues can differentiate only a few very basic notes ) when munching away on some food, it is a whole different story exposing lung tissue to it.

It is for a good reason that toxicty tests track ingestion, inhalation and skin exposure seperately.

Well, I could embark on an herculean task - European Union did publish a list of allowed chemicals and their allowable concentrations for making flavours and aromas.As hardcopy it fills a fat file folder and lists several hundred substances...

So I'm fairly certain we haven't seen the end of the list of substances that or acceptable to eat but not really healthy to inhale.

It's still a huge step away from inhaling the 3000 odd chemicals found in tobacco smoke.

But yes, do tell if any of that is in liquids.And leave it up to the potential buyer whether to pick it up or give it a pass.

We've ( as in vaping community ) been on the ANTZ's case for years about falsifying and withholding infomation about e-cigs.

So we owe it to ourselves to play with an open deck...

 

[ST Dog]

I'm *somewhat* concerned about the 2nd hand effects myself, mainly just because diketones have the potential to completely destroy the lungs -- it's one thing if a person chooses to disregard that for him/her self, but quite another to inflict it on others without their knowledge or consent.

That was discussed in another thread where I know you participated.

But I don't see a move to ban them in theaters or even to require the employees there to wear PPE (as they would get far more exposure than the average movie goer).

If they're planning to cook something using that flavor, no issue whatever

The only lawsuit regarding DA was a consumer of microwave popcorn, ie he was cooking it.

2nd hand vapor of diketone-included ejuice could pose any risk to bystanders.

Any risk? That's a open ended quantity, and the one that lead to smoking bans all over despite the negligible risk to others.
If it takes 100 years of exposure 8hrs a day, every day (ie, living/working with) to a vaper to significantly increase one's risk of disease, that's still a risk.
Not one to be concerned about, but the risk is still there.

There's always some risk. The question is, is it statistically significant in a reasonable time frame.

I think this is going where it wasn't supposed to. I'm out. Happy to continue in another thread though. PM me a link.

 

[AndriaD]

Won't be the end of it ....

We always need to remember that we're inhaling flavours which weren't exactly made for that purpose - and often in concentrations way above the mixing recommendations for food preparations. While it *may* be fairly safe to ingest or catch the occasional whiff ( flavour is tasted largely by receptors in the nasal cavitiy; our tongues can differentiate only a few very basic notes ) when munching away on some food, it is a whole different story exposing lung tissue to it.

It is for a good reason that toxicty tests track ingestion, inhalation and skin exposure seperately.

Well, I could embark on an herculean task - European Union did publish a list of allowed chemicals and their allowable concentrations for making flavours and aromas.As hardcopy it fills a fat file folder and lists several hundred substances...

So I'm fairly certain we haven't seen the end of the list of substances that or acceptable to eat but not really healthy to inhale.

It's still a huge step away from inhaling the 3000 odd chemicals found in tobacco smoke.

But yes, do tell if any of that is in liquids.And leave it up to the potential buyer whether to pick it up or give it a pass.

We've ( as in vaping community ) been on the ANTZ's case for years about falsifying and withholding infomation about e-cigs.

So we owe it to ourselves to play with an open deck...

Yes, I think that is probably the best way to go. As I said, I'm not a fan of big nanny. What you noted, that these flavors are meant for ingestion rather than inhalation, that's the main issue I think -- I don't think these chemicals have harmed anyone who simply ate/drank them, and you're right, the quantities we're exposed to by their deliberate inhalation are probably an order of magnitude greater than anything we would be exposed to, in eating them, considering how these concentrated flavors are used in food prep.

And yes, I can see that there's an improvement over the 1000s of chemicals found in cigarette smoke -- but the effects of those, while potentially pretty awful, are also pretty well known -- vaping is a whole new ballgame, and the lack of concrete knowledge, that's definitely something to consider. Of all the chemicals involved in vaping, the flavors are potentially the most troublesome. I certainly don't plan to vape unflavored, but I *would* like some real info about the things I'm breathing into already-damaged lungs. Asthma is not the norm, obviously, but there aren't many long-term smokers that don't have *SOME* kind of lung damage.

Andria

 

[nyiddle]

So don't vape them if you don't want to.
You don't need the FDA to ban them just because you don't want them.

Keeping with ingestion, that's like banning sweets because somepoeple eat too much.
No one forcers them to eat 3 chocolate bars a day, and just because they do shouldn't prevent me form having one each week.

Since somepople drink large amounts of alcohol that destroys their liver, should we ignore that most can drink smaller amounts less often and not cause liver damage? Just ban alcoholic beverages instead?

Peannut alergies can be deadly to some. Should we ban all peanut products? They've already done so in many schools. Why not a nation wide ban?



Banning flavoring compounds because you don't want to take the risk == requirent PPE for all fuel transfers because a few people can't pump gass without spilling it on themselves OR == banning bleach and/or amonia because some dufus might mix them together


I already can't buy cold medicine beacuse some idiots like to make .... out of it.
In many areas you have to show ID to buy spray paint, or spray cans that might be used as inhalants (again by idiots).

Sorry, I don't want some government agency banning stuff just because it can be harmful when used improperly/in excess.

The examples really prove nothing man, it's totally hot air.

I'm saying that as it is, you can say to yourself, "I don't want to vape diketones," and you don't really have a choice in the matter. The juice you purchase, whether you're aware of it or not, might be full of potentially nasty stuff. Whether it's diketones or the next big thing that's gonna be bad for you.

So I guess in the end, I support the idea of putting a warning on the bottles, but that would naturally just imply some form of regulation. Otherwise people wouldn't be obligated to slap the "contains diketones" sticker on their juice bottles, and most juice makers probably would intentionally NOT slap that sticker on, just because it'd guarantee they'd lose some customers.

I'm saying there's a problem, and the market isn't going to regulate itself/ensure safety within itself. I wouldn't mind SOME intervention from a third party (whether that's a government or a new organization -- leaning on the primer for now) to guarantee that I'm not being sold a juice with subtle diketones in it. I want to avoid the stuff to the best of my ability, and at the moment, only a few juice manufacturers bother disclosing any sort of, "Our juice contains diketones" thing.

 

[AndriaD]

The examples really prove nothing man, it's totally hot air.

I'm saying that as it is, you can say to yourself, "I don't want to vape diketones," and you don't really have a choice in the matter. The juice you purchase, whether you're aware of it or not, might be full of potentially nasty stuff. Whether it's diketones or the next big thing that's gonna be bad for you.

So I guess in the end, I support the idea of putting a warning on the bottles, but that would naturally just imply some form of regulation. Otherwise people wouldn't be obligated to slap the "contains diketones" sticker on their juice bottles, and most juice makers probably would intentionally NOT slap that sticker on, just because it'd guarantee they'd lose some customers.

I'm saying there's a problem, and the market isn't going to regulate itself/ensure safety within itself. I wouldn't mind SOME intervention from a third party (whether that's a government or a new organization -- leaning on the primer for now) to guarantee that I'm not being sold a juice with subtle diketones in it. I want to avoid the stuff to the best of my ability, and at the moment, only a few juice manufacturers bother disclosing any sort of, "Our juice contains diketones" thing.

This is just one of the many reasons I'm moving toward DIYing *all* my ejuice, but I'm not quite there yet -- but soon! At least, as soon as I can fabricate something blueberry that I enjoy vaping as much as I'm enjoying the blueberry muffin I get from sweet-vapes. I don't *think* it's got diketones, but I really have no way of knowing for sure, and that bugs me.

Andria

 

[Mr.Mann]

I will admit that my belief in the vaping industry as a whole being able, no, being willing now to satisfactorily regulate itself is mostly wishful thinking, but I do believe in the long run it is possible. In the short run it'll be mainly status quo, but a fear just as large as others fear of shady liquid manufacturers is my fear of our industry being dismantled under the guise of our safety. The sad part is no matter whether you fear the dismantling of our industry or fear the unknown (and to some degree, the known) issues with a sizable portion of liquid out there, both sides have quite valid reasons for our fear.

 

[Mazinny]

I spoke with a friend of mine last night, a friend who happens to be a vendor (but he asked me to not name him), and although his liquids are not tested, he told me he knows that some of them do have diketones (any vendor worth his salt will know which flavors do, and which flavors probably do). He said he is *thinking* about coming out with v2 flavors for those that do have it, but he said he is currently in the process of labeling the flavors that do have them with a disclaimer.

My reason for saying this is simply that I didn't bring it up to him, but he told me that the consumer base is flooding him and other vendors with questions and outright demands. He spoke on behalf of other vendors that he knows when he said, "we've got to let them (the customers) know." As I alluded to before, if a enough vendors that give the customer a clear choice start taking business away from others that don't, you'll see the bulk of vendors get on board. Not a top down kind deal, but bottom up.

And that's why it is important that consumers be aware of the issues and demand testing by the vendors. Placing a disclaimer is a good start but the exact level of diketones in a particular juice can only be determined by testing. I am hoping the type of lab testing certificate Mountain Oak Vapors is putting on their product description page, becomes a standard in the industry.

 

[nyiddle]

And that's why it is important that consumers be aware of the issues and demand testing by the vendors. Placing a disclaimer is a good start but the exact level of diketones in a particular juice can only be determined by testing. I am hoping the type of lab testing certificate Mountain Oak Vapors is putting on their product description page, becomes a standard in the industry.

Hmm, never heard of Mountain Oak Vapors, but their site looks interesting (specifically, their e-juice looks interesting).

I was poking around to see if any juices come up as being positive for diacetyl/acetoin, and it seems that none do. But really, diketones are the "larger picture", and diacetyl is really just one of the many diketone-ridden chemicals. So I mean, while they're confirming that there is no diacetyl, they don't seem to necessarily be confirming an absence of diketones, which still leaves me concerned. Although, I could be wrong, I only looked at 4 or 5 e-juices which I'd expect to have diketones present.

That said.. I think I might make an order from them. The juice seems pretty good, according to reviews, and I've been meaning to buy a handful of tobacco e-liquids. Which they have.

 

[Mazinny]

Hmm, never heard of Mountain Oak Vapors, but their site looks interesting (specifically, their e-juice looks interesting).

I was poking around to see if any juices come up as being positive for diacetyl/acetoin, and it seems that none do. But really, diketones are the "larger picture", and diacetyl is really just one of the many diketone-ridden chemicals. So I mean, while they're confirming that there is no diacetyl, they don't seem to necessarily be confirming an absence of diketones, which still leaves me concerned. Although, I could be wrong, I only looked at 4 or 5 e-juices which I'd expect to have diketones present.

That said.. I think I might make an order from them. The juice seems pretty good, according to reviews, and I've been meaning to buy a handful of tobacco e-liquids. Which they have.

As far as i know Acetyl Propyniol ( not acetoin ) and Diacetyl are the two main diketones used in flavoring and they test for both. They reformulated all their juices that came positive in January i believe. They are committed to a diketone free juice line.

I love their NET's but they aren't for everyone. Some think they are too gruff. From their synthetic tobacco line i like Americano and Outlaw.

 

[Mia11]

As far as i know Acetyl Propyniol ( not acetoin ) and Diacetyl are the two main diketones used in flavoring and they test for both. They reformulated all their juices that came positive in January i believe. They are committed to a diketone free juice line.

I love their NET's but they aren't for everyone. Some think they are too gruff. From their synthetic tobacco line i like Americano and Outlaw.

I'll soon find out if I like MOV, because I will be trying them for the first time soon. I hope I do.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Hmm, never heard of Mountain Oak Vapors, but their site looks interesting (specifically, their e-juice looks interesting).

I was poking around to see if any juices come up as being positive for diacetyl/acetoin, and it seems that none do. But really, diketones are the "larger picture", and diacetyl is really just one of the many diketone-ridden chemicals. So I mean, while they're confirming that there is no diacetyl, they don't seem to necessarily be confirming an absence of diketones, which still leaves me concerned. Although, I could be wrong, I only looked at 4 or 5 e-juices which I'd expect to have diketones present.

That said.. I think I might make an order from them. The juice seems pretty good, according to reviews, and I've been meaning to buy a handful of tobacco e-liquids. Which they have.

MOV is one vendor that doesn't really put itself out there in such ways, but they are always pushing to keep vaping alive and well. That's the best way I can put it. Whether being up-to-speed with piped in to the politics-and-action side of things, or just making sure that his liquids are exactly the best they can be -- both in taste and in integrity -- MOV is one of the vendors doing all they can to stand out from the bulk of the rest.

Oh, I won't go further as I see Maz pointed out the rest I was going to speak on.

 

[amoret]

oh ok i get it, they don't care whether it is disclosed ! I read it as they don't care whether the juice they vape personally has diketones in it.

Actually, I do think it ought to be disclosed. I objected to the mandatory aspect. Anyone who wants to avoid these could not only avoid any liquids that were shown to include them, they could also avoid any from producers who don't choose disclosure,

I personally am not worried. First, most of the flavor profileslike are extremely unlikely to contain them. Second, yes, we directly inhale these, but all of the current panic is based on a few cases of industrial exposure, which leads to, third, I'm old enough that I have lived through a lot of health scares based on limited data. I don't think that banning something with no evidence that it is going to cause harm to most people makes any sense.

 

[Katya]

I voted for mandatory disclosure. I agree with Dr. Farsalinos that diacetyl and other diketones pose an unnecessary and completely avoidable risk. But how big this risk is still unknown.

I really don't like food colorings in e-liquids--what's up with that? At least diacetyl makes juices taste nice and creamy, which helps many vapers transition from smoking to vaping, but colorings? I'd ban those.

Even though I'm not in favor of bans, generally.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Actually, I do think it ought to be disclosed. I objected to the mandatory aspect. Anyone who wants to avoid these could not only avoid any liquids that were shown to include them, they could also avoid any from producers who don't choose disclosure,

I personally am not worried. First, most of the flavor profileslike are extremely unlikely to contain them. Second, yes, we directly inhale these, but all of the current panic is based on a few cases of industrial exposure, which leads to, third, I'm old enough that I have lived through a lot of health scares based on limited data. I don't think that banning something with no evidence that it is going to cause harm to most people makes any sense.

I can respect your issue with the notion of mandating. However, the point I made a few days ago is that disclosed nicotine percentages is mandatory in the eliquid market, not becasue it is law, but becasue customers deem it to be mandatory -- obviously a liquid maker could theoretically sell "proprietary nicotine mixes" if they so choose. Not saying those two are the same thing, but it goes back to disclosure of some sort being a must with some things. But, not all of us feel this is one of those things. Hell, I think manufacturers better start putting "approximately" on their nicotine and solvent ratios/percentages -- but I digress.

 

[Kent C]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-dr-farsalinos-new-study-25.html#post13712020

 

[Katya]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-dr-farsalinos-new-study-25.html#post13712020

Voluntary disclosure was not an option in Mr. Mann's poll.

If you don't feel your position was included, don't vote or find the one that best fits it.

Other than that, I agree.

 

[Kent C]

Voluntary disclosure was not an option in Mr. Mann's poll.

"find the one that best fits it."

Other than that, I agree.

None are close...

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

 

[AndriaD]

I voted for mandatory disclosure. I agree with Dr. Farsalinos that diacetyl and other diketones pose an unnecessary and completely avoidable risk. But how big this risk is still unknown.

I really don't like food colorings in e-liquids--what's up with that? At least diacetyl makes juices taste nice and creamy, which helps many vapers transition from smoking to vaping, but colorings? I'd ban those.

Even though I'm not in favor of bans, generally.

I COMPLETELY agree about the coloring; that is SOOOOOO unnecessary -- I vape for flavor, nicotine, and still, to a very small extent, WTA... what color the juice is, is completely irrelevant -- most of what I DIY is almost completely clear, at 10mg nicotine.

I got some Banana Nut Bread from High Desert Vapes -- it's nearly black, quite opaque. I made some Banana Nut Bread of my own, which is higher in nicotine but lower in VG -- and it's almost completely clear! That tells me that it's not just the VG in their juice that was causing me problems!

I don't like artificial colors in the foods I eat; I sure as hell don't want them in what I vape!

Andria

 

[Katya]

None are close...

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

I want disclosure. Preferably voluntary, but mandatory is OK too.

Consumers who think that diacetyl is a problem should either DIY and do their own testing of ingredients ...

Ahem, how is doing it yourself gonna help you avoid diacetyl if flavorists don't disclose if diacetyl is present in their flavorings?

And no, I don't feel like testing my own e-liquids; thanks, but no, thanks--I want the vendor to tell me what's in the juice he's selling. If he refuses, I'll find one that will.