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The Distillation Problem

Discussion in 'General E-Liquid Discussion' started by Gentle Smoke, Mar 29, 2019.

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  1. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    We all know how distillation works. Control the boiling temp of a liquid and everything with a boiling point below that temp boils off. Great for moonshine, not so for atomizers. I clearly notice the difference in the juice as I go through a tank. I did consider that if the tank was truly isolated from the coils, it shouldn't be happening. But it is so, what's the solution to this issue? PS why can't I create a tag with the word distillation?
     
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  2. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Super Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    Your post reminds me of years ago when I used those awful Kanger long-wick coil heads.
    [​IMG]
    The sediment would descend down the strands and pollute the clean liquid in the tank.

    You should share a picture of your setup so we have some idea what you're dealing with.

    Distillation isn't a really word that is associated with vaping since the e-juice itself doesn't actually reach its boiling point. Rather, the water contained in the e-liquid flash-boils which spits out droplets of liquid e-juice. What's left behind is some sediment from the flavoring, and scorched wicking if your setup runs too hot.
     
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  3. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Hello GO Don't have a picture but, I'm running a Dead Rabbit RTA with rayon wicks. According to an article I read here, thinning the tails eliminates back draw from the coils and having perfectly even length tails promotes bilateral draw. The last one is quite difficult but, I'm trying. Also, please see my comment to your post on boiling point calculator.
     
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  4. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    PS: My prior atomizer was a Vaporesso Cascade Baby with ceramic coils. I felt the same ordered loss with that atomizer also.
     
  5. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Ultra Member

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    Do you mind sharing this link?

    What is it are you trying to achieve?
     
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  6. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Super Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    The boiling point of ethanol is 75C, water 100C, PG 188C, VG 290C, but this stuff is thoroughly emulsified and quite possibly in solution since I've never seen it separate. That's pretty terrifying that you would see ingredients "distilling" away in that order. How are you sure that's actually what's happening?
    My understanding is that "Vegetable Glycerin and Propylene Glycol are hygroscopic. That means they suck up the water in the air and absorb it" so it should never run out of water.
    The Dead Rabbit RTA looks very similar in design to the Zeus X RTA I use.
     
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  7. Letitia

    Letitia Citrus Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    You might consider a rdta, coils aren't in contact with the tank juice. If you wick often you shouldn't notice any difference in the taste.
     
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  8. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Hello Punk The article I referred to is: Rayon Wick - Better Flow, Flavor, Longevity, and Nic Hit!! - Pt.2. Its first post advises as to rayon wicking. What I trying to achieve is to vape consistently as to flavor / low temp experience. And GO, I sense this by taste and temperature. You can't miss that the small quatity of alcohol is boiling off first, probably all gone by 1/4 tank. As to water, I'd say it hangs around to 80 plus percent of the tank. When getting towards the end of the tank, I find that I'm raising the temp to get adequate vapor.
     
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  9. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Super Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    I'd definitely suggest that you take the ethanol out of your mix.
    And I made a drawing on how to use rayon, based on this howto video.
    [​IMG]
    Disclaimer: I haven't got any first-hand experience with rayon.
     
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  10. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Anyone with experience vaping clearo's might understand that what we're dealing with more resembles kitchen science and so reduction. Back in the day with the quality of drop-in's often shorting turn-to-turn, irregularly heating or actually arcing we "darkened" a heck of a lot of juice. And given that water actually only constitutes probably <.5% of most recipes, it's pretty easy to do.

    As the experiment has been done a gazillion times by so many of us, it's pretty common knowledge when your tank starts to foul like this…it don't vape. Depletion of the water component definitely occurs. Freshen up the tank a bit and you've got your vape back.

    I never understood "thinning" (to account for gravity?). How do you get more liquid to go through less hose (when it's already wet)? Too much for my little head.

    RxW (Nextel braid wicking) are incredibly tightly wound ceramic fibers. Not only does it flow like mad and is utterly flavor neutral its small (micron size) capillaries retain fluid very well. If you want it dry you're going to have to vape it dry. The advantage is that the juice inside doesn't tend to oxidize. The fabulous flavor you enjoy is always nearby. Add a drop of VG (water) to prime, wet it or drip it and you're back in business inside of one or two pulls…flavor and volume as you meant it to be...overnight or even days later. Now tell me you can do that with any other kind of wicking.

    There's a lot to be said for squonkers and bottom-fed RDA's for a clean tasting vape. Doesn't surprise me why those flavor lovers were the leading exponents of Nextel early on in vaping.

    Good luck. :)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  11. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Super Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    You mean raking out the cotton to thin the ends? The only time it makes sense to me is when the volume of material would cause a constriction. The prime example would be an RTA where the cotton needs to descend into and fill the juice channels but still be loosely packed enough to wick properly. If it's densely packed into those channel then juice won't rise easily to the coils.

    So it wouldn't make much sense to rake the cotton in say, an RDA. Also rayon seems to work a bit differently from cotton.
     
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  12. Letitia

    Letitia Citrus Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    Use code MTV for 20% off the MacTechVpr glossary at the ecf shop.
     
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  13. Zakillah

    Zakillah Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 24, 2015
    Vienna
    You cant seperate water, PG and VG by distillation and I find it hard to believe that PG gets "vaped away" and the VG stays in the tank. How is that supposed to happen?

    Did some tests at work on vapor composition vs liquid composition and its the same.
     
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  14. DeloresRose

    DeloresRose Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Apr 25, 2014
    toledo ohio
    That’s what I was thinking. It’s like presuming that since alcohol weighs less than soda, if you make a Jack and Come you’d drink off most of the Jack before getting to the soda.

    The science is beyond me, I admit, but mixed together surely there is some bonding of atoms or something like that.

    It’s one thing to say each ingredient has its own boing point. Boil them each separately and you’ll see those results. But I’d expect that mixed, you would see that their boiling points would be an average of their individual temperatures.
     
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  15. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Super Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    What sort of coils are you using? Single or dual? What's the total resistance? What material are they built from?
    What kind of mod?
    What approximate wattage range are you seeing?
     
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  16. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
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  17. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    And Mac Tech, I believe you have the solution. I've started to run my RTA at low volume and am adding juice when It approaches exposing the ports. Definitely more flavorful and consistent.
     
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  18. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Water expands of a ratio of approx 1600:1 @ 100C when vaporized. A boiling point is a constant. It's a volatile process which aerosolizes the solution otherwise, i.e. PG/VG, into the fine mist we see. That is my understanding. Determining just how much of the VG or PG we might be vaporizing with the breath of hardware and chem in use would seem to me to be highly problematical.

    Good luck. :)
     
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  19. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Thanks for the validation here.

    To which I'll disagree somewhat with the common consensus that it's dry heating that causes accretion. It certainly can exacerbate it but it does so by baking it in. What got the juice that "sticky" in the first place? Well…just as in the kitchen, heat. Heat short of or inadequate to achieve uniform vaporization. And once such deposition begins high dry heat will bake it in. Just like in the kitchen or on the grill.

    Yes, I've been running half tank fills for many years to avoid undue concentration and keep flavor/output levels high. Juice is good but…

    I encourage peep's I teach to rebuild and testers in my baseline DIY distribution to use VG. My recipes are 10-20% over the flavor target to allow for generous use of VG (~.5% water) to freshen tanks or to prime dripping (1 drop to 6-7 juice). This keeps output robust and the installation clean by helping to promote optimal vaporization. It's under-vaporization that is our nemesis. If the recipe is a bit on the rich side this facilitates this method.

    Because the .5% of water in raw VG is diluted by ingredients somewhat, straight VG can give it a boost.

    Good luck. :)
     
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  20. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Ultra Member

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    @MacTechVpr - Love your posts, always lots of info to consume and chew on. But question: It is a know fact that sighted tests can lead to biased results. Have you blindly tested your theories?
     
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