The Distillation Problem

[MacTechVpr]

@MacTechVpr - Love your posts, always lots of info to consume and chew on. But question: It is a know fact that sighted tests can lead to biased results. Have you blindly tested your theories?

Because of the number of people I encountered in years past when I was more active I definitely had the opportunity to do so. With new vapers since I always encourage comparisons of wicking, wind methods and gear. Have enough extra hardware to do that (or comparable). I always do side-by-side testing myself religiously. And that includes testing commercial juice formulas vs. baselines I'm using for interns I have from time to time. But I run no purely scientific studies as I don't have the resources mostly of time to do so. My tests have been more of the type you describe and of vaper reactions to these alternatives. I've always been far more interested in finding those things we mostly like. We each of us can find our own frontiers from there.

Good luck.

p.s. I always get consent first btw. Some peep's don't like. Those who agree though don't know when or if.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Because of the number of people I encountered in years past when I was more active I definitely had the opportunity to do so. With new vapers since I always encourage comparisons of wicking, wind methods and gear. Have enough extra hardware to do that (or comparable). I always do side-by-side testing myself religiously. And that includes testing commercial juice formulas vs. baselines I'm using for interns I have from time to time. But I run no purely scientific studies as I don't have the resources mostly of time to do so. My tests have been more of the type you describe and of vaper reactions to these alternatives. I've always been far more interested in finding those things we mostly like. We each of us can find our own frontiers from there.

Good luck.

p.s. I always get consent first btw. Some peep's don't like. Those who agree though don't know when or if.

There are some items, actions, methods etc, that are just plain obvious and don’t really justify any kind of blind testing.

I find your comment (and others made here) on the tank half full to avoid undue concentration to be both intriguing and suspicious, if you don’t mind me saying. Intriguing cause I haven’t got a clue what the hell you are talking about, and suspicious cause I have never experienced what ever the hell you are talking about.

I also believe with a little ingenuity, knowhow and a touch of science we can improve our vape. But given the environment in which we have to work with, how much of an improvement can be had? There has to be a point of diminishing returns.

 

[Skeebo]

I'd definitely suggest that you take the ethanol out of your mix.
And I made a drawing on how to use rayon, based on this howto video.

Disclaimer: I haven't got any first-hand experience with rayon.

You should name your artwork, "If Dracula Got Braces".

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@Gentle Smoke – Perhaps sourcing objective measurements that back your theory, even if it is not related to vaping, may assist in helping you find your solution. Online forum debates are not what I consider objective measurements.

 

[MacTechVpr]

There are some items, actions, methods etc, that are just plain obvious and don’t really justify any kind of blind testing.

I find your comment (and others made here) on the tank half full to avoid undue concentration to be both intriguing and suspicious, if you don’t mind me saying. Intriguing cause I haven’t got a clue what the hell you are talking about, and suspicious cause I have never experienced what ever the hell you are talking about.

I also believe with a little ingenuity, knowhow and a touch of science we can improve our vape. But given the environment in which we have to work with, how much of an improvement can be had? There has to be a point of diminishing returns.

We are vaping much cleaner these days. In great part thanks to Kanger's Subtank introduction [larger coils] and the ensuing greater attention to coil symmetry by drop-in system producers. Shorts and erratic output were all too frequent before this. So the incidence of severe reduction we used to see in clearo's is not as common. However, if the science I describe is correct it is happening and the major cause of accretion that we do see, often in concert with more wire mass in play (or power applied) than required for optimal vaporization by the device/design.

The perspective that anything works may often seem observably true. However, what we really want is the best our device can achieve. The best tools are those that help us efficiently find that. It's a universe where everything shines without it.

Good luck.

 

[Rossum]

You cant seperate water, PG and VG by distillation

What makes you say that?

Did some tests at work on vapor composition vs liquid composition and its the same.

What was the starting mixture, and how did you analyze the composition of the vapor?

 

[Rossum]

It’s one thing to say each ingredient has its own boing point. Boil them each separately and you’ll see those results. But I’d expect that mixed, you would see that their boiling points would be an average of their individual temperatures.

That's correct, the boiling point will likely be some intermediate temperature, although that isn't necessarily an "average". A few percent of water mixed with VG lowers VG's boiling point quite a lot (far more than a calculated average would suggest).

Now the thing is, when vapor boils off at that intermediate boiling point, will the composition of that vapor be exactly the same as the composition of the mixture that's boiling? I suspect the answer is no; that the vapor will contain somewhat more of the liquid that's got a lower boiling point.

When doing fractional distillation, you never get just one liquid or the other out. You will still get a mixture, but the proportions that mixture will not be the same as the liquid you started with.

 

[DeloresRose]

That's correct, the boiling point will likely be some intermediate temperature, although that isn't necessarily an "average". A few percent of water mixed with VG lowers VG's boiling point quite a lot (far more than a calculated average would suggest).

Now the thing is, when vapor boils off at that intermediate boiling point, will the composition of that vapor be exactly the same as the composition of the mixture that's boiling? I suspect the answer is no; that the vapor will contain somewhat more of the liquid that's got a lower boiling point.

When doing fractional distillation, you never get just one liquid or the other out. You will still get a mixture, but the proportions that mixture will not be the same as the liquid you started with.

Makes sense. If we were talking medicine that would a concern, certainly. I just don’t see it as anything to worry about in vape juice. We’re going to vape most of what’s in the tank anyway, so it’ll just be a matter of a lil more of one at first, a lil more of the other later.

 

[Rossum]

Makes sense. If we were talking medicine that would a concern, certainly. I just don’t see it as anything to worry about in vape juice. We’re going to vape most of what’s in the tank anyway, so it’ll just be a matter of a lil more of one at first, a lil more of the other later.

It isn't really a concern, but it does explain why liquid thickens some as you draw down a tank. I haven't used tanks in many years, but back when I did, I noticed this most obviously when I was using a bit of water to thin high-VG juice.

 

[Zakillah]

What makes you say that?


What was the starting mixture, and how did you analyze the composition of the vapor?

Because OH bonds between PG/VG/water. You cant distill everything. Aceotropes are a thing.

Besides, if you distill something, you have a large container where the undistilled components end up. You dont have that in ecigs. Where is the left over VG supposed to collect?
Think of it this way, if you put a drop of a PG/VG/water mixture on a hot stove and vaporise it instantly, the composition of the vapor is the same as in the drop.
If you'd heat a, lets say, 50/50 mixture in a beaker, then yes, the resulting vapor will have more PG in it, but not by much. Will go to 60/40 approx. But thats not how ecigs work. We dont heat liquid in a beaker, we're much closer to the drop on the stove comparison.

Mixture was 50/50. Messured by cracking open unused cartos. Then messured total output of PG/VG/Nic/water every 50 puffs until battery empty. Then crack carto open and messure whats left inside.
Same composition every time.

 

[Rossum]

Because OH bonds between PG/VG/water. You cant distill everything. Aceotropes are a thing.

Yes, but they are quite rare and occur at specific ratios when they exist at all.

Besides, if you distill something, you have a large container where the undistilled components end up. You dont have that in ecigs. Where is the left over VG supposed to collect?

In the tank, and tanks are where people report the phenomenon of increasing viscosity. I've seen it myself. It exists. If you believe it isn't due to fractional distillation, then please propose an alternate theory to explain these observations.

FWIW, I found it most pronounced when water was a component of the liquid, but it also happens to a lesser extent no water was deliberately added.

Mixture was 50/50. Messured by cracking open unused cartos. Then messured total output of PG/VG/Nic/water every 50 puffs until battery empty. Then crack carto open and messure whats left inside.
Same composition every time.

Curious: How much liquid was in the carto to begin with?

 

[MacTechVpr]

…Besides, if you distill something, you have a large container where the undistilled components end up. You dont have that in ecigs. Where is the left over VG supposed to collect?

I find your comment (and others made here) on the tank half full to avoid undue concentration to be both intriguing and suspicious, if you don’t mind me saying. Intriguing cause I haven’t got a clue what the hell you are talking about, and suspicious cause I have never experienced what ever the hell you are talking about.

In the tank, and tanks are where people report the phenomenon of increasing viscosity. I've seen it myself. It exists. If you believe it isn't due to fractional distillation, then please propose an alternate theory to explain these observations.

Took me a bit to put my hands on it. Albeit we have no clue the time req at temp and volume for this informal experiment but I found the related discussion interesting…

What is this brown liquid that I got when I boiled glycerol and water solution?

Repetitive reheating short of vaporization and impurities are certainly an issue and the tell would be darkening. All the more important then that we strive towards (and teach, encourage) principles and methods for more effective vaporization.

@Rossum I'd agree we're prob more apt to notice a more viscous residual in a tank. But it certainly happens in drippers and we see the result with accumulation in wicking of these components.

Refreshing tanks does help. So does adding some VG to replenish water ratio. Timely rewicking or dry-burns and rinsing of synths…all are essential to a good, consistent and clean vapor output. Recommend these all the time.

Good luck.

 

[Zakillah]

In the tank, and tanks are where people report the phenomenon of increasing viscosity. I've seen it myself. It exists. If you believe it isn't due to fractional distillation, then please propose an alternate theory to explain these observations.

FWIW, I found it most pronounced when water was a component of the liquid, but it also happens to a lesser extent no water was deliberately added.


Curious: How much liquid was in the carto to begin with?

I have no other theories on that. Its not totally out there and I'm not saying it cant happen, ever. But those atties I meassured didnt do that. Also, I never tested VG/water mixtures. There could well be things I'm not aware of.

Around 1,5ml in the Carto.

 

[stols001]

Well this is so far above my vaping paygrade.....

VG has water in it, and adding more water definitely seems to reduce OVERALL boiling point, so it's got to "mix" in some ways, right? Whether the H20 boils off faster seems to be your main question.

I have NO clue. However, might I suggest a squonker if you are concerned. Nothing is "boiling off" UNDER the RDA and inside the squonk bottle I would PRESUME.

So that might help what you "see" as your "situation" although in all fairness, I am totally uncertain as to whether your situation is "real" or "imaginary" to be quite honest. But if it's REAL-- to you, I would think a squonker would solve your issues. Just a thought.

Anna

 

[Gentle Smoke]

I can assure you I have a good grip on reality. And, I learned a new word as I searched the web for the answer:
azeotrope, a mixture of two liquids which has a constant boiling point and composition throughout distillation. Don't have the website to quote but, a PG, VG water mix are not an azeotrope. So the bottom line on vaping is that its a primarily a violent ejection of liquid (droplets) with a lesser effect of distillation (molecular vapor).

 

[Zakillah]

In the tank, and tanks are where people report the phenomenon of increasing viscosity. I've seen it myself. It exists. If you believe it isn't due to fractional distillation, then please propose an alternate theory to explain these observations.

FWIW, I found it most pronounced when water was a component of the liquid, but it also happens to a lesser extent no water was deliberately added.

What I could do is test my liquid, then vape the tank to almost empty, then test the liquid thats left in the tank; if that would interest you. Of course that will only cover one tank and one PG/VG ratio (50/50), but at least its not a 5 year old Carto nobody uses anymore. Could take a day or two. Is there a better/another way to test this that you can think of?

EDIT: Test running; results in ~2 hours.

EDIT2: Results are in.

Liquid composition fresh from the bottle:
Water: 1,61%
PG: 43,85%
NIC: 0,25%
VG: 54,28%

Liquid composition from leftover liquid in the tank:
Water: 2,12%
PG: 43,83%
NIC: 0,25%
VG: 53,80%

Yeah. I´m not buying VG collecting in the tank, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. It does not happen. At least not with the setup I used: Aromamizer Supreme V2; 60 Watts; Rayon wick. Although I dont think any of that makes a difference.
Yes, I left the juice flow open the entire time, so that if VG wanted to flow back, it could.

I´m open for further suggestions, so if there is a particular liquid composition you want to have tested, tell me and I´ll see what I can do. I guess more VG and ~5% water would be interesting judging from what you wrote. Also, OP, what juice are you using?

 

[Coyote628]

The only time i ever saw increased viscosity in a tank is when i was outside vaping on a cold day. As far as the rest of the info here, i dont think its going to add or take away anything from my personal vape experience. Id be more interested in the quantification of methane in cow farts.

 

[Jebbn]

What I could do is test my liquid, then vape the tank to almost empty, then test the liquid thats left in the tank; if that would interest you. Of course that will only cover one tank and one PG/VG ratio (50/50), but at least its not a 5 year old Carto nobody uses anymore. Could take a day or two. Is there a better/another way to test this that you can think of?

EDIT: Test running; results in ~2 hours.

EDIT2: Results are in.

Liquid composition fresh from the bottle:
Water: 1,61%
PG: 43,85%
NIC: 0,25%
VG: 54,28%

Liquid composition from leftover liquid in the tank:
Water: 2,12%
PG: 43,83%
NIC: 0,25%
VG: 53,80%

Yeah. I´m not buying VG collecting in the tank, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. It does not happen. At least not with the setup I used: Aromamizer Supreme V2; 60 Watts; Rayon wick. Although I dont think any of that makes a difference.
Yes, I left the juice flow open the entire time, so that if VG wanted to flow back, it could.

I´m open for further suggestions, so if there is a particular liquid composition you want to have tested, tell me and I´ll see what I can do. I guess more VG and ~5% water would be interesting judging from what you wrote. Also, OP, what juice are you using?

I have been following this thread, it' an interesting discussion.
I would be interested in a vg and 5% water result. I use vg and 11%dw