The E-Cig and Life insurance rates??? Anyone have experience???

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lilmrsyeti

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jay12...whatever...I know my husband was an insurance Agent for a VERY long time, guessing from your attitude, longer than you've been alive. No, he did not work for cheapo beat all Rates...matter of Fact, it was probably one that just about everyone has heard of..but that's neither here nor there.


Just because I don't get long winded like some folks...just to hear myself talk...and write a book explaining the whole thing, does not make me a lair or a spammer. The man I was talking about had an accident at night, no one around to see what caused the Accident. Not only did the LO request the Autopsy, so did the Family...when it came back that he was Healthy...but yes, did have Nicotine in his Blood, the insurance refused to pay.

I'm not here to argue with you or any one else...alls I'm trying to say, is just be honest...I mean really...@@
 

DC2

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In response to jay12.....my husband and I have had many discussions about this and he has told me that the reason insurance companies charge nicotine rates for use of e-cigs is because there is no difinitive way to prove that someone is actually using an e-cig and not actual cigarettes/tabacco products. If the nicotine shows up in the blood/urine the applicant will be charged nicotine rates because they only have the word of the applicant, and its the people that lie that ruin it for the rest of us.

Funny you should mention stopping the nicotine before the test, I told my husband that I was going to suggest the same thing. He chuckled and said that he can't suggest that being an underwriter but that would be the only way around it at this point.

He agrees that vaping is not smoking...and that vaping is healthier...but he has a job to do and has to follow his company's policies. He hopes that someday there will be a test that can tell the difference between nicotine from vaping and nicotine from smoking. :)
Testing for carbon monoxide will show the difference between a smoker and a vaper.
 

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Kabooma

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I have heard Prudential Life Insurance will lower your rates if you are honest and just tell them you have been using e-cigarettes rather than smoking for the past year. Prudential is apparently the only Insurance Company that offers an e-cigarette discount from what I hear. If your going to quit nicotine for 7 days you might as well quit nicotine for good, no? I mean the worst of physical withdrawal is day 3 or 4.

Actually they don't. On the phone interview, they asked me specifically if I used tobacco, I said "No." At the physical, they had a form that asked again, but expanded into 'tobacco replacement products', such as gum, patches, etc.. and so I again answered "No" to the tobacco question, and "Yes" to the replacement question. I thought I was completely honest, and even told the nurse that I used the e-cig.

Prudential rated me as a smoker, and said it was because I had nicotine in my system, and that I lied about tobacco use. I argued with them about it, but in the end, they said the e-cig is a tobacco product, not a replacement product.

Screw them.
 

thelifeinsblog

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I hope perhaps I can diffuse a little of the confusion going on in this thread. I, like the gentleman also replying in this thread, am a life insurance agent. I also am the owner and operator of The Life Insurance Blog.

Vaping and E-Cig use are possible non-smoker ratings, but there is more to just whether or not your use/have used cigarettes. Don't be fooled in thinking you just moved to an E-Cig and you're good to go.

Here's an example of an article we recently wrote: Vaping and Life Insurance

Here's the tl;dr

  • You have to be off of cigs for a year+. Period. One year+.
  • You need to admit up front about your ecig/vaping.
  • Give details about your use: how much nic is in your juice, how many drags are you taking, etc.

Obviously, the amount in your system is also going to play a factor. If you have x amount versus XXXX amount, obviously the insurance company is going to think twice.

Let me know if you have particular questions, I'll be happy to help.

Jason
 
Actually they don't. On the phone interview, they asked me specifically if I used tobacco, I said "No." At the physical, they had a form that asked again, but expanded into 'tobacco replacement products', such as gum, patches, etc.. and so I again answered "No" to the tobacco question, and "Yes" to the replacement question. I thought I was completely honest, and even told the nurse that I used the e-cig.

Prudential rated me as a smoker, and said it was because I had nicotine in my system, and that I lied about tobacco use. I argued with them about it, but in the end, they said the e-cig is a tobacco product, not a replacement product.

Screw them.

Actually, they do. I suspect you had a substandard agent advocating for you, or no agent at all, or the whole story hasn't been painted here.
Prudential is notoriously one of the few "big" insurers that will issue "non-smoker" ratings to smokeless tobacco, nicotine replacement therapy, occassional/celebratory cigar, and e-cig users. I've succesfully underwritten clients with Prudential hundreds of times. There are a couple of limitations:

1. The highest rating available is "Standard Plus". This is better than a standard rating, but not as good as a preferred, preferred plus, or elite ratings. Due to Prudential's rates being slightly higher than many of its competitors, "standard plus non-smoker" from Prudential may still be more expensive than a "preferred smoker" rating from one of its competitors. For that reason, we tell clients to look less at "ratings" and more towards prices. If it is cheaper, do you really care what they call it?

2. The applicant has to attest that they have not used cigarettes in the past 12 months, and that they do use some other form of nicotine. Omitting either one of these items is grounds for denial. I suspect this is where you hit trouble. More on this in a moment.

3. A blood and urine sample that will confirm the presence of continine (the nicotine by-product that is actually tested for), but must not have levels higher than a certain amount. Cigarette smokers tend to have much higher cotinine levels than those that use other forms of tobacco. If your levels are too high, Prudential will simply refuse to believe that you do not smoke cigarettes. This does not sit well with many clients. But look at it from Prudential's point of view: if you are using nicotine subsitutes at such a high level that it makes a urinalysis appear that you are smoking a pack a day, there is a highly likely chance that you will end up smoking again at some point. Prudential is simply playing the odds.

I see a number of areas where your application could have gone "off the rails". For one, you said that your questionaire was completed via phone interview. This is becoming more common. I, personally, don't like it. The exact question on the Prudential application is: "Has the primary insured EVER used tobacco or any other nicotine products, such as...?" The answer to that question, for you, is "yes". According to your post, you answered "No". This is very possibly due to the interviewer not asking the question correctly. Or, it is possible, you misunderstood the question. Either way, a paper application would have avoided this.

More importantly, a decent agent should have curtailed all of this. For starters, you should have been given a list of "do and don't" to prepare for your physical exam. Among other things, that list should have told you not to smoke (even your e-cig) the morning of your physical exam. Secondly, a decent agent would have "prepped" you by doing a mock interview. It's really no different than preparing a witness for trial. The key is to be truthful, but not overly forthcoming. And third, once the smoker rating was applied, a good agent would have contacted Prudential, explained that there was some mistake/confusion, and asked them to reconsider. 9 times out of 10, this works.

If this was an online, do-it-yourself, situation, you got what you paid for. Reconsider using an agent next time. It doesn't cost extra to do so. If you used an agent, it's time to find a new one.

good luck and best wishes,
 
@ mighty26 - I am a Life Insurance agent, so I think I can help you. First, understand that you will have a blood test that looks for cotinine in your blood, the by-product of nicotine. If it's there, you will be charged smoker rates. Second, realize that vaping and smoking are two different things. Cigarettes, cigars, chewing tobacco, etc., all have carcinogens, thus the higher rates. Vaping does not have carcinogens. However, Insurance companies have not yet made this distinction. So what to do?

Cotinine can be found in a number of bodily fluids, including blood and urine. However, insurance companies almost exclusively look for it in the urinalysis, not the blood profile. It's all downhill from here.

Apply as a non-smoker. Then, find out your lab date. 5 to 7 days before your lab date, stop any and all nicotine products, including vaping any nicotine liquids (I suggest you get some 0 nicotine liquid for those few days.) When they draw blood, there will be no nicotine / cotinine in your system, and you will come out clean. You will be charged non-smoker rates. Here is some more info on doing that:

How Long is Smoking Cigarettes Detectable on an Exam? | eHow

Is this fraud? No. You are no longer a smoker at the time of your application, so no fraud is present.

It is unquesitonably fraud. I represent dozens of insurance carriers (every large insurer, actually, save a few of the captive mutuals), and I am aware of NOT ONE SINGLE carrier that simply asks "are you still smoking at the time of this application". Rather, they (all of them) ask "have you used tobacco OR nicotine products in the past _____" or some variation of that sentence. That blank space is usually three years, five years, or "ever". It is absolutely impossible to do what you suggest without lying to that question.

In addition, every life insurance policy has a 2-year contestability feature. This means that the Insurance Company has 2 years from the date you sign your application to contest any of the statements / answers in your application. After this period expires, the policy can no longer be contested (i.e., if you die, they MUST pay the benefit), except in cases of gross fraud. And as I said before, this is not fraud. And it especially is not gross fraud.

Insurance companies classify an "oops" into one of two categories. First there is a "mistatement", which is simply an honest mistake or omission that did not affect the underwriters ultimate classification. Forgot to mention that you saw a doctor about a cold two months ago - that's a mistatement. The second "oops" is "fraud", or a dishonest statement or omission that was made willfully, and done so to manipulate the underwriter into issuing a health classification that he would not have otherwise issued. Telling an underwriter that you don't use nicotine in order to get a better rating is fraud. There is no argument to be made otherwise. There are hundreds of court cases that support my claim. It is fraud. Period.

Maybe the husband of @msilvia would disagree with this approach, but the underwriting department does not make payout decisions upon death, legal does. And for them to prove gross fraud in the use of vaping for an answer to a nicotine use question would subject them to a lengthy trial where they would have to justify charging the same rates for non-carcinogenic nicotine use versus carinogenic nicotine use, which they would be unable to do. At some point, insurance companies may have to recognize non-carcinogenic nicotine use and make rate adjustments accordingly for the slight increase in health risks due to nicotine use in itself. But then they'd arguably also have to start making adjustments for caffeine use, etc. Not going to happen. So until Insurance companies make those adjustments, which I don't think they ever will, there is no fraud and they will make the payout. Period.

There is so much crap in this last paragraph that I can almost smell it through my monitor. For starters, the insurance company isn't going to have any burden in this case. Assuming they find out about your lie (which, honestly, they most often will not), they will simply deny the claim and move on with their day. It is then up to the beneficiary to hire a lawyer to go after the death proceeds. Good luck convincing a decent lawyer to go contingency on this one. Keep in mind you are asking him/her to argue that his client lied on an insurance application but that they weren't really important lies and that the money should be paid out anyway. Ha! The insurance company doesn't need to prove carcinogens, health risks, or any other fluff you mentioned. They simply need to show that the applicant did not tell the truth, and had he/she done so, they wouldn't have made the offer for coverage that they did. They are simply going to pull out there massive underwriting guide that states "we issue smoker ratings to nicotine substiute users". Case closed. Gavel bangs. Again, there are hundreds upon hundreds of cases about this same issue.

Even if you manage to find an attorney to take the case, and by some act of God you win, you just gave the attorney 40% of the money. It would have been much cheaper to pay the (higher) smoker premiums.

On top of all if this, in most States, insurance applicants sign binding arbitration clauses. In those situations, there is no court trial - just an arbitration panel that is going to laugh at your justifications and mincing of words.

It is obvious from your statements, diction, and tone that you take personal issue with e-cig users being treated as smokers. I don't agree with the practice either. But not agreeing doesn't give you authority to commit fraud. Telling someone to quit using nicotine just long enough to beat a urinalysis, and then lying on an application is fraud. Discussion over.

PS - To everyone else reading this, even if you believe the garbage that this guy is peddling, it's still not good advice. IF, for some crazy reason, the insurance company (or a courtroom/arbitration panel) agrees that your "mistake" was an innocent misunderstanding, they will still go back and reissue the policy at smokers rates. In other words, they'll just "undo" the mistake. And to do that, they are going to look at the premiums paid, and figure out how much insurance the applicant could have bought for that amount of premium AT SMOKER RATES. If the insured was paying $100 per month for $500k of coverage, but $100 would have only bought $250k at smoker rates, the heirs will only get the $250k. And then the attorney will still take his cut. Just suck it up and tell the truth. It will work out best for everyone (including you) in the long run.
 

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