I see it slightly differently - I view it as piggybacking on the ECA's legal information as to how to keep e-cigs within the current regulatory framework.
I don't see any harm in that.
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I see it slightly differently - I view it as piggybacking on the ECA's legal information as to how to keep e-cigs within the current regulatory framework.
I don't see any harm in that.
Just out of interest does that mean you will be using US regulations as a framework when dealing with UK suppliers or vice versa?
I suspect there will be little to no difference. But given that the vast majority of this site's membership is from the US - US regulations will take precedence.
The OP uses marginal grammar and several words are not spelled correctly. I hope this type thing isn't being sent out to Congress members.
Most of my posts are pretty lighthearted. What's throwing a lot of us is the route that is being taken...self regulation? Really? This is Nicotine we're talking about. It's a pesticide and poison...that is being taken into the body in a whole new way. I love the stuff...but do I want the companies selling me my favorite poison to be controlling the testing and reporting of it. Nope. Nor do I want my favorite place to read about this stuff to be enforcing their self imposed rules. These aren't the goverment's lawyers telling us what the companies should abide by...these are just a few suppliers that decided that we should trust that they can regulate themselves. They are comparing themselves to the homeopathic industry.
I know that nobody wants to agree with "The Man" but these are drug delivery devices unless you are using zero nic juice. Start looking at getting them approved rather than spending time and money on finding another place to hide for a few more years. Sooner or later, somebody is going to claim that something bad happened to them (heart attack, teeth fell out, can't get it up, who knows) because of one of these devices. When that happens we'll be right back to this same place with nothing but wasted time and money to show for it.
This letter was in response to demands for explanations from forum members as to what the ECA is, and I believe its intent was to inform forum members as to what is in the works.
I understand the reservations that many have, and agree with many of the points made. I will not support a strong arm mentality either, but I do understand that supplier guidelines are necessary. This is not an unusual practice in any established industry.
I think it's important to note that the ECA needs to be run independent of this forum. Posting minutes will only foster threads that run out of control and do more harm than good. Minutes should only be issued to full members.
I think it's great that SJ will require suppliers to adhere to some basic standards as well.
I understand the reservations that many have, and agree with many of the points made. I will not support a strong arm mentality either, but I do understand that supplier guidelines are necessary. This is not an unusual practice in any established industry.
I think it's important to note that the ECA needs to be run independent of this forum. Posting minutes will only foster threads that run out of control and do more harm than good. Minutes should only be issued to full members.
I think it's great that SJ will require suppliers to adhere to some basic standards as well.
Can an officer of the ECA start a thread titled "Suggestions for ECA" where we can contribute any ideas or streamlining that may or may not have been addressed during the meeting.
For instance: Membership
(Please forgive me if I use incorrect terms)
Relative to suppliers there could be a Founding/Charter membership of X amount. A fixed locked in amount, available and open for participation until a certain cut-off date. Then, there could be a regular membership for established suppliers who just decided to get in on the ECA late. And, a new business membership, which would be significantly lower than regular memberships with a step-up rate increase per annum, and a 5 year long term pay-back initiating in the 3rd year.
Relative to non-suppliers there could be Regular Memberships, with whatever rights ECA is giving, Associate Memberships with lesser rights (specifically no voting rights), and Senior Discount memberships of both types.
I suggested the differing Supplier memberships because of concerns that I read. I suggested the various non-supplier memberships relative to all of our various economic concerns.
Lastly, at the present time, those of us that signed-up, to my understanding only signed-up for a newsletter. Before fully joining, I would need to see in print that non-supplier members are insulated and indemnified from any lawsuits. If we signed-up for anything more, then would one of the ECA officers/members please message me so that I can remove myself. The non-suppliers must be insulated and indemnified from lawsuits and that must be in print.
For instance: Membership
(Please forgive me if I use incorrect terms)
Relative to suppliers there could be a Founding/Charter membership of X amount. A fixed locked in amount, available and open for participation until a certain cut-off date. Then, there could be a regular membership for established suppliers who just decided to get in on the ECA late. And, a new business membership, which would be significantly lower than regular memberships with a step-up rate increase per annum, and a 5 year long term pay-back initiating in the 3rd year.
Relative to non-suppliers there could be Regular Memberships, with whatever rights ECA is giving, Associate Memberships with lesser rights (specifically no voting rights), and Senior Discount memberships of both types.
I suggested the differing Supplier memberships because of concerns that I read. I suggested the various non-supplier memberships relative to all of our various economic concerns.
Lastly, at the present time, those of us that signed-up, to my understanding only signed-up for a newsletter. Before fully joining, I would need to see in print that non-supplier members are insulated and indemnified from any lawsuits. If we signed-up for anything more, then would one of the ECA officers/members please message me so that I can remove myself. The non-suppliers must be insulated and indemnified from lawsuits and that must be in print.
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Hi MonkeyMonk,
The membership and membership fee's are being written up as we speak. All of us are working feverishly to get this done. This is a huge task please be patient. There are I believe 4 levels of membership (but don't quote me on that).
Josh
The membership and membership fee's are being written up as we speak. All of us are working feverishly to get this done. This is a huge task please be patient. There are I believe 4 levels of membership (but don't quote me on that).
Josh
Thanks, Josh for posting so quickly, am I correct that at the present time that we only signed up for a newsletter? For, me personally, I would have to have that indemnification from lawsuits in print as part of a non-supplier membership prior to becoming a member,
MM,
All of your concerns will be taken care of, yes as of now you are only signed up for the newsletter. We are still forming the association and once it is legally formed everyone will be updated. We are only in the early stages. This is a BIG task and we are working as fast as we can. Don't forget this is new to all of us.
Josh
All of your concerns will be taken care of, yes as of now you are only signed up for the newsletter. We are still forming the association and once it is legally formed everyone will be updated. We are only in the early stages. This is a BIG task and we are working as fast as we can. Don't forget this is new to all of us.
Josh
Thanks, Josh! That's what I thought I was doing last night, just signing up for a newsletter, but then after reading the subsequent posts, I wanted to have that completely clarified.
Can you kindly relay my concerns and need for non-supplier indemnification to JoAnna at the appropriate time. Thanks, in advance!
Can you kindly relay my concerns and need for non-supplier indemnification to JoAnna at the appropriate time. Thanks, in advance!
MM,
I sure can, however Joanna has probably already read this thread, she is very thorough.
Josh
I sure can, however Joanna has probably already read this thread, she is very thorough.
Josh
Wow, I must say I am stunned.
The ECA is a group of people who love this product and want to keep providing it to you the consumers. It's formation was not some power-play designed to control market share. Rather a desperate attempt to challenge the FDA, Congress and special interests who want to see e-cigarettes gone for good. The ECA is terribly out gunned. It currently lacks the lawyers, lobbyists and dollars to get this done. Dont take away the one thing it has: community support.
Instead of giving them a trial by fire on their intentions, give them the benefit of the doubt. There is a real possibility that e-cigarettes are banned and removed from the US. Not today or tomorrow but soon. The ECA is the best shot at stopping that from becoming a reality.
The ECA is a group of people who love this product and want to keep providing it to you the consumers. It's formation was not some power-play designed to control market share. Rather a desperate attempt to challenge the FDA, Congress and special interests who want to see e-cigarettes gone for good. The ECA is terribly out gunned. It currently lacks the lawyers, lobbyists and dollars to get this done. Dont take away the one thing it has: community support.
Instead of giving them a trial by fire on their intentions, give them the benefit of the doubt. There is a real possibility that e-cigarettes are banned and removed from the US. Not today or tomorrow but soon. The ECA is the best shot at stopping that from becoming a reality.
Well, even though I live in Canada, I see this as a positive step forward. While I too have some reservations, at least we are not all just sitting around like sheep waiting for the slaughter. I will wait for a bit more information before commiting myself but these are very early days yet for this organization.
While I understand the logic in referring to the devices as "personal vaporizers", they are what they are and to call them anything else (other than an e-cigarette) strikes me as a bit disingenuous. Let's face reality and DEAL with reality rather than trying to find ways of skirting around things. At least for now.
While I understand the logic in referring to the devices as "personal vaporizers", they are what they are and to call them anything else (other than an e-cigarette) strikes me as a bit disingenuous. Let's face reality and DEAL with reality rather than trying to find ways of skirting around things. At least for now.
No I did not mean money. I thought our first concern is NOT getting banned. Some are throwing out all sorts of comments and concerns that can be addressed later. We need to support the ECA and help them get off the ground and take care of what should have been taken care of before. Yes I'm worried this might be too late but we have to try! Let's not shoot them down before they even stand up for crying out loud. There's nothing wrong with just signing up for a newsletter. They are trying to show they have people who support them. Give them a break people. I would much rather be able to order from a US supplier than worry constantly if my order is going to be siezed by Customs and lose my money.
Quite. Looks like I'll have to start paying more attention to these threads as it looks like it could have a direct impact on UK consumers as well.
hmmmm
what to say what to say....
ok.. first off... i like the idea of an association... i like the idea of conformity of standards... i like the idea of safety.. and i like the idea of my ecigs remaining on the market...
but i must say... i LOATHE the idea that this smacks of fascist forced conformity.. to the extent that it eliminates all of the good coming from it..
this sounds like nazi germany.. a "join us or die" mentality.. there are obviously going to be suppliers who disagree with the associations point of view... maybe some that simply cannot afford monetarily toconform to the associations standards YET.. and worst of all.. for any new suppliers stuck not being ABLE to conform to this standard yet.. it reaks of hypocrisy..
since when do the suppliers who got us into this mess in the first place by NOT living up to these lofty standards suddenly become the judge, jury and executioners of suppliers who are currently in the same boat ALL of you were in mere months ago..nay.. WEEKS ago.
dont ever get me wrong... again i LOVE the IDEA of this.. but the spirit seems lacking.. if you're going to take peoples hard earned cash anduse it to lay waste to the startup suppliers who can't affordyour membership.. then shame on you..and i won't be a party to it.
SJ.. you know i love you man.. but i'm not liking what i'm hearing on your end either. firstly.. you just said that ecf would mainly follow US guidlines... first off.. this is highly unfair to EU members and suppliers who are legally bound to THIER nation's rules and regulations. also... and it HIGHLY pains me to make this point... i seem to recall a certain HIGHLY regarded member of this forum being banned and the usage of UK law as the excuse.. which you're current stance shows as nothing more than an excuse.. not a fact.. and again.. the "join or die" menatlity also strikes us in the framework of same beloved sister being bannedfor reasons of trying to do harm to a suppliers business.. yet.. now we decide that if one doesn't join the "ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE" association, one cannot be a supplier member of a forum that lists suppliers as such to enjoin them from SELLING in general thread topics. does this mean that unassociated suppliers are not allowed to use the forum except for reading purposes? that seems highly infair to both those suppliers and to the members who honestly... just dont care about the difference.
i personally first joined this forum because i saw in it a community of openness.. a community that allowed freedom to learn, teach, and just to have a bit of "poo and giggles" (note.. self censorship for me shows troubled) i'm seeing a change for the worse. i know i seem to have more problem with the stance of YOU SJ.. but it's because the forum is where my heart is, and the forum in it's spirit has ALWAYS been about the freedoms we've enjoyed on it.
anyways... PLEASE think about this.. the fascist mentality here right now as it sounds can be VERY dangerous ground to walk upon.. it could be what REALLY destroys our community and our love for our devices and liquids, and again.. i would have made a bad german in the 40's... because i refuse to goosestep to the tune of nazi fascism. i hope and (agnostically) PRAY that someone can give me the hope that i have that im wrong.. and this thing isnt about shunning the suppliers who do not conform at gunpoint.
much serious love for you all, and sadness in my heart for what i feel you may be becoming.
Keith (Taukimada)
what to say what to say....
ok.. first off... i like the idea of an association... i like the idea of conformity of standards... i like the idea of safety.. and i like the idea of my ecigs remaining on the market...
but i must say... i LOATHE the idea that this smacks of fascist forced conformity.. to the extent that it eliminates all of the good coming from it..
this sounds like nazi germany.. a "join us or die" mentality.. there are obviously going to be suppliers who disagree with the associations point of view... maybe some that simply cannot afford monetarily toconform to the associations standards YET.. and worst of all.. for any new suppliers stuck not being ABLE to conform to this standard yet.. it reaks of hypocrisy..
since when do the suppliers who got us into this mess in the first place by NOT living up to these lofty standards suddenly become the judge, jury and executioners of suppliers who are currently in the same boat ALL of you were in mere months ago..nay.. WEEKS ago.
dont ever get me wrong... again i LOVE the IDEA of this.. but the spirit seems lacking.. if you're going to take peoples hard earned cash anduse it to lay waste to the startup suppliers who can't affordyour membership.. then shame on you..and i won't be a party to it.
SJ.. you know i love you man.. but i'm not liking what i'm hearing on your end either. firstly.. you just said that ecf would mainly follow US guidlines... first off.. this is highly unfair to EU members and suppliers who are legally bound to THIER nation's rules and regulations. also... and it HIGHLY pains me to make this point... i seem to recall a certain HIGHLY regarded member of this forum being banned and the usage of UK law as the excuse.. which you're current stance shows as nothing more than an excuse.. not a fact.. and again.. the "join or die" menatlity also strikes us in the framework of same beloved sister being bannedfor reasons of trying to do harm to a suppliers business.. yet.. now we decide that if one doesn't join the "ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE" association, one cannot be a supplier member of a forum that lists suppliers as such to enjoin them from SELLING in general thread topics. does this mean that unassociated suppliers are not allowed to use the forum except for reading purposes? that seems highly infair to both those suppliers and to the members who honestly... just dont care about the difference.
i personally first joined this forum because i saw in it a community of openness.. a community that allowed freedom to learn, teach, and just to have a bit of "poo and giggles" (note.. self censorship for me shows troubled) i'm seeing a change for the worse. i know i seem to have more problem with the stance of YOU SJ.. but it's because the forum is where my heart is, and the forum in it's spirit has ALWAYS been about the freedoms we've enjoyed on it.
anyways... PLEASE think about this.. the fascist mentality here right now as it sounds can be VERY dangerous ground to walk upon.. it could be what REALLY destroys our community and our love for our devices and liquids, and again.. i would have made a bad german in the 40's... because i refuse to goosestep to the tune of nazi fascism. i hope and (agnostically) PRAY that someone can give me the hope that i have that im wrong.. and this thing isnt about shunning the suppliers who do not conform at gunpoint.
much serious love for you all, and sadness in my heart for what i feel you may be becoming.
Keith (Taukimada)
I'm also an adult without kids in the house; with arthritis in my hands.
My prescriptions come to me in child proof bottles but I was able to request an "easy off" top mailed along with them.
I like the "pill bottles" that one of the juice suppliers put in my order so I can decide whether to use those or not as I see fit.
I guess my question is...is an "easy open" option possible without raising the cost of the packaging for you guys?
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