The Elephant In The Room ...

[kinabaloo]

So long as a deposit is 'burning' away on the coil, the system is not perfect. This is the elephant in the room.

Considering how many people profess to be critical thinkers and value science, it is amazing that this fact has been staring us in the face all along and almost nobody cares to address it.

It is often said that e-juice has been tested and that each ingredient is regarded as safe. However, it is not so much what is in the juice that we need to worry about but what it is that we are inhaling - what is in the vapor. That this is not the same is clear by the deposit buildup.

The dry-residue is not just a nuisance - it degrades through getting heated by the coil (at times to red-hot); hence the occasional 'bad-smell'. While all this is going on some gases, possibly noxious, might be released in the vapor.

Hence, I see the number one priority as the devising of 'clean' juices, by which I mean juices that leave no deposit. No dry-residue from flavorings or from the nicotine preparation. And not using VG because that has been shown unequivocably to leave a deposit all by itself, as I often expected (this eperimental result is a big step forward and we can find an alternative for those allergic to PG, perhaps PEG-400).

With a 'clean' juice it is possible that 'what goes in' equals 'what comes out', though the vapor would still need to be tested to know that for sure (that heat is not decomposing/degrading any of the ingredients without any of the products being non-volatile).

Furthermore, consider that Ruyan, who are likely to have studies this as much as anyone, chose PG as the base, not the cheaper VG, even though VG also produces more fog. And they don't include flavorings that were developed for food, not being vaporised.

Consider also that the results chart for the vapor are far more 'noisy' than the chart for the juice. So changes are taking place and there seems to many more components in the vapor than in the juice.

Deposit-free juices could be devised. It is not too big a task. It needs to be done.

 

[kinabaloo]

We have an alternative to one of the world's biggest killers and we face potential legislation that could bump it off. That it's safer is not going to cut the ice. Everyone knows that tobacco smoking is a kind of exception, for historical reasons; just being safer than that, no matter how much more safe just isn't likely to win the day.

There is an obvious flaw and we can fix it. We haven't got much time but we have a chance to get this fixed before the real testing begins. It feels like so many are just hoping the potential ban will go away. I can understand newbies concern with this and that model etc., but there's a lot of veterans here, with many skills. Science, petitioning, legal, etc. People who can influence things and get things moving. All the models, and connectors and gripes etc won't mean a thing if the whole thing is cancelled. We see the fire approaching and we play mahjong waiting for the city to burn down while hoping a storm extinguishes the flames. Lets do what we can so when the time comes there's no case to answer. Don't regret later, let's do what we can right now. I know so many are already doing a lot, but try to understand that there's an issue here we should deal with, a vital, urgent one.

We'd love to say, hey it's just PG and water and flavorings (and perhaps nicotine). Let's make sure it is.

 

[Kit]

Great post kinabaloo !

 

[kinabaloo]

Kit - thanks. I include myself - I need to mail juice manufacturers, explain my concerns, push for changes. I just hope that we have the best possible case.

I can make my own juice, with nicotine if i want, and an atomiser; but that's not the point. I want vaping to win the day and be an alternative for others. It would be an epic disaster to fail in that now. I want to put some fire into the vapor!

Dry deposits were known about long before my first atomiser failed on day one and i ended up here. Those that can should be doing the 103 now, we can't stay at 101 forever. Time is not on our side.

 

[Letzin Hale]

"I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our vaping habit, to ride out the storm of prohibition, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone. At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of the ECF, every man and woman of them. That is the will of the moderators and the members.

The ECF and the ECA, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their rights, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large tracts of America and many old and famous US States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the FDA and all the odious apparatus of State rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end,
we shall fight in America,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our right to vape, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this community or a large part of it were subjugated and starved of their e-apparatus, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."

Land of Hope and Glory
Mother of the Free

Alan.
​

 

[Oliver]

Just a thought - if we find that there is in fact no satisfactory mixture that does not, over time, leave deposits, would the alternative be to move to a disposable atomiser model, assuming that by the time an ato-cart is finished, there is a lesser likelihood of enough problematic deposits built up?

 

[kinabaloo]

Just a thought - if we find that there is in fact no satisfactory mixture that does not, over time, leave deposits, would the alternative be to move to a disposable atomiser model, assuming that by the time an ato-cart is finished, there is a lesser likelihood of enough problematic deposits built up?

We effectively already have a disposable atomizer as they range from 1 week to 1 month or so before dying or becoming unusable.

A 'true' disposable (combined atomizer/cart) would not help much IMO as I think most of the harmful emissions will be emitted as one vapes - that is, as the deposit is formed - and with the majority of the 'burning' (degradation) of the deposit taking place from instantly to minutes, rather than days. I suspect some further degradation of the deposit takes place as the deposit builds; by heat insulating the coil, the inner layers of deposit would be subject to higher temperatures than previously. In this way the deposit becomes harder and more difficult to clean off.

Even a combined atomizer/cart design will likely have moments when the coil gets a little dry and thereby reaches a higher temperature. It is at these times that the notorious 'bad smell' is produced (something that we once worried was produced by a burning polyamide/acrylic wick, or the cart filling).

It is not the deposit itself that is the worry, it is the unseen released gasses during both the creation and the burning of it.

Sidenote: it has been discovered by SurbitonPete that small bits of the deposit break off from the coil and can find their way into the inhaled air-stream; this was discovered by placing an air filter just inside the cart (mouth end). This material would likely be mostly carbon, but as Exogenesis found through analysis of the deposit, a surprisingly high level of tin too (presumabably from the solder joints, although the source remains uncertain). There would likely be a range of other compounds there too. Still, my main concern would be the gasses emitted in the vapor.

While the majority of the gases produced by the degrading deposit would be benign - principally water and carbon dioxide - there would be a range of noxious ones too, such as carbon monoxide and aldehydes such as formaldehyde, and others, although in trace amounts. I think it inconceivable that a tiny amount of acrolein is not also present, most especially when VG is part of the juice. Have only just begun looking at PEG as a possible alternative to VG; on a german forum like ours some doubts have been raised about PEG also having a decomposition issue, but as yet I am not sure if that is the case. But let's leave aside VG for now as that can be solved by omission/alternative.

It is just impossible to be getting a deposit that then degrades to a black soot-like substance on the heater coil without some noxious gasses being produced.

However, this is easily remedied.

Formulating deposit-free juices (short term meaning will leave no dry residue and do not contain VG in a concentration that decomposes (this is still being determined, might need to be zero%)) is straightforward.

The tastes and scents that we receive from a juice are due to volatile (easily or fairly easily evaporated at normal coil operating temperature, say 150C to 250C) substances from the juice. Also in the vapor will be water (steam), PG and (perhaps) nicotine. So ideally only these things would be in the juice to start with.

Many things can be dissolved in water. alcohol, PG or whatever but will not evaporate when the liquid evaporates and are left behind as a 'dry-deposit'. Juices vary enormously in the amount of dry-deposit they leave behind on the heater coil. Flavors produced by soaking will be the main source of dry residue. That is, natural flavorings; these will have the richest blend of flavor/scent compounds - but will also contain many other compounds such as resins, starches etc. This includes the nicotine preparation when obtained in this way. Flavors used in e-juices were really designed for foods where dry-deposit is not an issue.

An example juice that will leave no deposit: PG, artificial vanilla flavor, water. The artificial vanilla flavor is a single chemical with a boiling point suitable e-juice (it will evaporate (vaporize) when heated by the coil).

Creating a deposit-free juice from a standard juice (this is NOT something to try at home). If one took a bottle of standard juice and slowly evaporated it, carefully recondensing the vapor, one would have a deposit-free juice; this would leave no deposit in the atomizer, guaranteed. While a possible way forward for juice suppliers, it would not be the most economical way; the best way would be to include only volatile components in the juice from the start. A hybrid appraoch would be to 'pre-vape' (evaporate and recondense) those flavor and nicotine preparations that would otherwise leave a dry-residue and then mix with PG etc.

A note on piezo transducer ultrasonic atomizer use in place of a heated coil: dry residues would still clog up the atomizer (to a lesser extent) but would be fairly easily rinsed out. There would be no decomposition of VG (or anything else) and no 'burning' (degradation) of the deposit. However, most of the components that will/would become dry-residue would end up in the lungs, not heat-degraded but a far from ideal situation nevertheless.

Deposit-free juices are the important step to take now, no matter what atomizer design is used. Improvements in atomizer design will not and can not solve the deposit issue (in terms both of 'bad smells' and early atomizer death). Not taking this step will hand ammunition to regulators giving grounds for raising health concerns, even though these might be argued to be minor. Claims (very probably true) that vaping is far safer than burning tobacco will cut little ice, rightly or wrongly; if vaping wants to stand on its own feet and nocome seen as only NRT, this step is even more important.

ps: I may add to this reply later; below this point.

 

[Vapinginjapan]

A quick note, Kinabloo.

Distillation will result in a juice that needs to be nicotine spiked AFTER, and not BEFORE the distillation.

Nicotine vapors spontaneously combust at 30c. This would make distilling the finished juice while preserving nicotine content nearly impossible. You would loose too much nicotine in the distillation.

Also, what say you to juices that don't have any dry deposits in themselves, but might degrade into dry deposits in the hot environment of the atomizer?

Additionally, there is the small matter of particulate matter from the air lodging itself into the wicking/mesh material of the atomizer. I imagine the wet sticky environment of saturated meshing would be an ideal place to catch airborne particulate matter, and the decomposition products of those air born particles in the atomizer might also present hazard, just looking at the gunk in air filters left operating in an environment for a time, we may not be able to complete eliminate airborne particulate matter lodging itself into the atomizer without a filter system, which would stiffen the drag.

 

[dumwaldo]

{snip}It feels like so many are just hoping the potential ban will go away.{snip}

Some of us that appear to be 'hoping it will just go away' are not at all thinking that. Some of us are simply unconcerned because prohibitions are simply unenforcable in the global market we now live in.

If it were 1975 I would be worried but in 2009 there is simply no way the government can keep me from getting what I need to continue vaping.

I can get pot any time I want despite the government deciding it is illegal.

I play online poker regularly despite the UIGEA that is supposed to ban banking institutions from doing business with gambling websites.

I associate with people who smoke cuban cigars despite the goverment banning them.

I associate with people who buy prescription drugs in bulk despite not having the requisite prescriptions required by the government.

There is simply no way that a ban could be enforced at the consumer level. The very worst possible thing that can ever happen is it will be slightly less convenient for me to get supplies.

I for one am not hoping it goes away. If anything I am hoping the product is completely banned instead of being regulated because regulation would be much more devastating in terms of cost and availability of supplies than a prohibition would be.

If it is banned then it is black market and the cost is controlled by the laws of supply and demand as well as the providers cost. If it is regulated then it becomes obscenely expensive or gray market where the prices are inflated to match their regulated counterparts.

DW

 

[LuckyCharm]

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[kinabaloo]

Dumwaldo - it's not just about a potential ban. It's about our health and trouble-free vaping too!

You raise some interesting thoughts but I feel you underestimate the impact a ban would have. And the legal penalties and criminal labels that just might get acted on. But this is best discussed elsewhere.

 

[kinabaloo]

A quick note, Kinabloo.

Distillation will result in a juice that needs to be nicotine spiked AFTER, and not BEFORE the distillation.

Nicotine vapors spontaneously combust at 30c. This would make distilling the finished juice while preserving nicotine content nearly impossible. You would loose too much nicotine in the distillation.

Also, what say you to juices that don't have any dry deposits in themselves, but might degrade into dry deposits in the hot environment of the atomizer?

Additionally, there is the small matter of particulate matter from the air lodging itself into the wicking/mesh material of the atomizer. I imagine the wet sticky environment of saturated meshing would be an ideal place to catch airborne particulate matter, and the decomposition products of those air born particles in the atomizer might also present hazard, just looking at the gunk in air filters left operating in an environment for a time, we may not be able to complete eliminate airborne particulate matter lodging itself into the atomizer without a filter system, which would stiffen the drag.

Sure we cannot easily prevent dust from the air getting in, but that is probably a small matter in comparison; and doesn't mean we shouldn't eliminate what we can - the big problem: dry deposits.

It may only be the flavors that need to be pre-'distilled'. In the case of nicotine from tobacco, the specialist manufacturer that supplies the juice makers can handle the issues you raise with specialised equipment. If a non-deposit-forming type of nicotine can be post-added that would be ideal; am still researching this matter.

All three of your ponts are good ones, especially this one: "Also, what say you to juices that don't have any dry deposits in themselves, but might degrade into dry deposits in the hot environment of the atomizer?"

Exogenesis has raised the same issue by PM. My reply: "You mean some of the gunk is possibly due to degradation of volatiles in the way we know VG does just that. Of course it is possible, but I think this would elimnate most of the deposit, certainly all the dry residue. I think it will produce a very clean juice. Only one way to find out for sure ...

If there are other things degradng on the heater coil that is bad news of course. I think it unlikely, but there's no point not facing the facts." Hence some more experimentation is required. However, I expect eliminating dry-residue and VG to eliminate 95%+ of the deposit buildup, if not all (airborne dust aside).

 

[Vapinginjapan]

I would agree with your assessment.

I think since nicotine can be added before the flavoring process, it can be added afterwards. I don't think nicotine leaves a dry deposit on anything, because it combusts as a vapor fairly easily.

Gas spectrometry might be able to divine the exact composition of the vapors that we breathe, however i'd be fairly confident that the level of potentially toxic chemicals in the vapor we breathe is far less harmful than say, living in LA.

However, I think the ultimate solution to the problem would be a two fold solution.

Distillation of the fluids and

Combining a piezo atomizer with a heating coil. The piezo atomizer mists it, and the heating coil heats it. Since the heat of the heating coil is NOT required to vaporize said chemicals, merely bring them up to a temperature suitable to simulate the experience, we could avoid any VG degeneration issues, and probably any volatile heat degradation issues. especially if we could design a heating element with an extremely high surface area, like a mesh or grid, that would require it to operate at a lower heating element temperature to raise the vapor an equivalent amount.

This would seem to me to be an ideal solution. Assuming we could get a relatively (in the strict sense of the word, relative to the atomizer of current e-cigs) cool heating element, we could avoid heat degeneration issues while vastly extending battery life, assuming the piezo mister doesn't suck down tons of power.

 

[Drewsworld]

There is already a company that has created a disposable atomizer that has a mini atomizer that is the same as the 901 but much smaller that has filtering chamber between the atty and the users lips..However the initial reviews on this site were, that they were too expensive comparitively...? Oh and oddly enough, I believe they were initially developed in Japan an are manufactured in China

 

[kinabaloo]

I would agree with your assessment.

I think since nicotine can be added before the flavoring process, it can be added afterwards. I don't think nicotine leaves a dry deposit on anything, because it combusts as a vapor fairly easily.

Gas spectrometry might be able to divine the exact composition of the vapors that we breathe, however i'd be fairly confident that the level of potentially toxic chemicals in the vapor we breathe is far less harmful than say, living in LA.

However, I think the ultimate solution to the problem would be a two fold solution.

Distillation of the fluids and

Combining a piezo atomizer with a heating coil. The piezo atomizer mists it, and the heating coil heats it. Since the heat of the heating coil is NOT required to vaporize said chemicals, merely bring them up to a temperature suitable to simulate the experience, we could avoid any VG degeneration issues, and probably any volatile heat degradation issues. especially if we could design a heating element with an extremely high surface area, like a mesh or grid, that would require it to operate at a lower heating element temperature to raise the vapor an equivalent amount.

This would seem to me to be an ideal solution. Assuming we could get a relatively (in the strict sense of the word, relative to the atomizer of current e-cigs) cool heating element, we could avoid heat degeneration issues while vastly extending battery life, assuming the piezo mister doesn't suck down tons of power.

After some discussion with Exogenesis I am hopeful that even distilling the full juice, the nicotine would all arrive in the cleaned juice (not just the free-base part); seems both are volatile.

Heating the mist from a piezo mister would be nearly impossible. There are two better possibilities: heating the juice before it is misted (not all the juice, just as tiny an amount as possible just before it is misted, to keep down power consumption). The other is a hybrid design, but involves two juice containers (perhaps a split cart). Water would be turned to steam by a heater coil to give the warmth; the PG, flavors and nicotine would be misted; and the two combined into the air-flow.

Re toxins: I follow your reasoning re levels; but it is not all reassuring given that city dwellers die a few years earlier! If something is breathed in day after day, we really should try to get it best we can; don't want to add to the background pollution

 

[Gardenia]

Wish people would stop coming up with problems. Lets face it this is the best thing since peanut butter. I do not think it is anymore harmful that inhale a menthol in a vaporizer used in a room next the bed when you have a cold. Please people, vaporizers have been used for centuries for medicinal purposes. I remember my grandmother using boiling water and camphor to inhale the steam when I was a little girl. How can this be worse than tobacco smoke, tar, amonia, arsenic ect........ that is in tobacco when it is burned and inhale. Stop looking for problems in the solutions and just enjoy the freedom and health alternative.

 

[exogenesis]

I think we all agree about those things Gardenia ,
I think this is more a question/hope of prolonging atomizer life,
as well as reducing 'bad' things (that can be reduced) at the same time.

 

[kinabaloo]

Wish people would stop coming up with problems.

There's no 'coming up with' here. You can close your eyes, but the elephant is still there.

This is a very positive thread that proposes a solution to the problems we face everyday. These problems have a common cause and I'm pointing it out because there is a solution.

If I didn't believe that vaping was a 'godsend' I wouldn't be putting in all this effort to make it even better.

No more bad tastes/bad smells
No more atomizers diminishing and dying earlier
No more need to fuss so much about cleaning the atty

Juices will taste better and last longer.

Vaping will be even better than it already is.

 

[kinabaloo]

I think we all agree about those things Gardenia ,
I think this is more a question/hope of prolonging atomizer life,
as well as reducing 'bad' things (that can be reduced) at the same time.

I would put it much more strongly than that Exo.

This could make a huge difference in atomiser life, and avoid the gradual diminution in performance; and the taste will be greatly improved too.

And I would expect that 'trace amounts of toxins' becomes 'indetectable'.

 

[agga40s]

I'd just like to note that many of us know there is an elephant in the room, but we don't comment because we don't understand the elephant or the horse he rode in on.

When you start talking about gas spectrometry and piezo atomizers, my eyes glaze over. I don't have a clue what you're talking about, so I have nothing to add...and very little to gain by even reading the thread at all.

Simply from a common sense point of view, it seems to me pretty evident that e-cigs are PROBABLY less harmful to me than analogs. I don't see how they could be worse. Plus there is the side benefit of not driving all my friends and relatives crazy with the second-hand smoke and the stink. I will have to leave it to those much smarter than me to figure out how to make it risk-free. Until then, I'm content to vape and let the brains figure it out.

But yeah, I still see the elephant.