The Elephant In The Room ...

[bigeyes]

I'd heard something like that, too, except they grandfathered the rules so that they only apply to new hires.

Anyway you slice it, it is a f***ed up rule dreamed up by bureaucrats sitting on the a**es trying to justify their existence. Where were those f***ing bureaucrats on 9/11?

I say firefighters should be allowed to smoke anywhere they want. They inhale our smoke if our home catches on fire. We should we willing to inhale their smoke. Hell, I don't smoke in my house, but if a firefighter friend came over and wanted to smoke a cigarette in my living room, I'd light it for him.

I agree.

 

[deewal]

Great Thread kinabaloo

I think main point (as you have identified ) is that we need a Clean juice.
I agree with you 100%. As you have said it is possible to make this (it must be.) IMHO this is the Number 1 Priority. Next Generation Atomisers may be easier to make once we are using a Pure Foundation. (I'm not having a go at you guy's who are inputting your Atomiser idea's, i think your all great. )
Now how do we get someone to manufacture it ?

Keep this up guys.
(I really have been becoming more worried about that black gunk)

 

[deewal]

It's ok, i've found it.
It's on the Janty Europe Site.

"JANTY™ LIQUID has been tested and approved by the University of Naples - Federico II and is conform legal ingredients.

This liquid will leave no residu on your atomizers and is completely safe."

Haaa

 

[tescela]

It's ok, i've found it.
It's on the Janty Europe Site.

"JANTY™ LIQUID has been tested and approved by the University of Naples - Federico II and is conform legal ingredients.

This liquid will leave no residu on your atomizers and is completely safe."

Haaa

Did I miss something? Are you saying that Janty is selling the "Clean juice" that has been under discussion in this thread?

 

[kinabaloo]

It's ok, i've found it.
It's on the Janty Europe Site.

"JANTY™ LIQUID has been tested and approved by the University of Naples - Federico II and is conform legal ingredients.

This liquid will leave no residu on your atomizers and is completely safe."

Haaa

I can't locate this. Link please ...

 

[kinabaloo]

I could do, and it might improve the yield a little, but it's pretty efficient as it is - I can make 50mls+ of finished juice (I'd guess 20-30mg/ml by subjective perception of its effect,) out of what I used to smoke in a week. It's certainly a better yield if I liquidise the ingredients and distil, rather than trying to press out the juice and discard the solids before distillation.
And without the VG the solids will just burn in the flask once the PG's distilled out. It might be more efficient if I could find a liquid with a higher boiling point than nicotine that nicotine is insoluble in, but in practice there doesn't seem to be a problem freeing acceptable quantities from the solution.

Next time, I'll try vaping some of the residual VG (after filtering the solids out,) to see if it has a noticeable nicotine content.

It would also be nice to know if the juice you have prepared this way leaves any deposit in a new atomzer. I forget now whether there will be any VG in your juice; do you know? If there is, a deposit is virtually guaranteed.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

From what you've said, I'd be very intersted in how
'clean' the double distilled version is, wrt to atomizers.

btw : are the juices you're selling (soon) based on home-brew,
or commercial ?

Commercial - no way am I going to inflict my witches brew on anyone else
I have no real way of knowing how strong it is or what other crap's in it that's distilled out of the pipe tobacco I've been using up on these experiments (and I don't even vape it regularly, because it's not as nice as the commercial juice.)

The first batch is ECOPure-based - got 2 litres ready to roll, and just waiting for the childproof caps (if they're not on my doorstep Tuesday morning the bottle company's going to get such a bollocking - they sent plain caps with the original order, and there's still no sign of the proper ones,) but I may have to switch to Chinese juice if Intellicig keep chopping and changing their availability.
Eventually I'd like to compound my own, but I'll buy in the raw nic + glycols if that happens. And I'll have to get a proper hazchem lab set up first if I do go down that route (not sure I want the hassle.)

EDIT: still haven't got round to double-distilling - I've got a few days off this week, I'll try to get round to it. Got projects piling up faster than I can deal with ATM! :0

 

[Nick O'Teen]

It would also be nice to know if the juice you have prepared this way leaves any deposit in a new atomzer. I forget now whether there will be any VG in your juice; do you know? If there is, a deposit is virtually guaranteed.

No VG (or at least, maybe a smidgen of azeotropic that's condensed out at below the boiling point - if indeed it forms an azeotrope at all, and I have no evidence - but that has to be virtually none anyway given the difference in boiling points.)
I add PG (there's no visible vapour without it, so I can be pretty sure the glycol levels in the distillate are negligible.)
As for deposits - yeah, black and typical. I doubt it's the PG, but there must be all sorts of crud from the tobacco (an aromatic flavoured blend of half a dozen types of leaf,) - rancid leaf oils depositing on the coil, that's my best bet.

On a slightly related point, my 81% Phosphoric acid ("pH Up" for hydroponic buffering,) does seem to remove some of it (not all.) I get black flakes detaching and improved performance after soaking for an hour or 2 and rinsing out.

 

[exogenesis]

Phew, glad it's commercial based juice
- I was slightly worried for a bit there

If you ever did formulate your own juice from scatch in a lab,
would the nicotine have to be tobacco extracted,
(presumably EcoPure is, like all other commercial juices)
or do you think you could use synthetic 'clean' nicotine?


(btw 81% phos.acid = pH UP ??)

 

[deewal]

Did I miss something? Are you saying that Janty is selling the "Clean Juice" that has been under discussion in this thread?

No i'm not. That's why i put a at the end of it.
It's just a Janty Claim which is part of their Description of their Juice which is on this Site........ JANTY LIQUID FRENCH MLB LIQUID

Sorry, did'nt mean to alarm you. It's just that Janty make this claim which as anyone who has used Janty Juice knows, is untrue.
I was in no way trying to deride or discredit this thread.
Apologies for any misunderstanding.

 

[gep]

This discussion is reminiscent of the discussion of the "charring" of grilled meats being carcinogenic....

I'm not giving up my Ribeyes....

 

[kinabaloo]

This discussion is reminiscent of the discussion of the "charring" of grilled meats being carcinogenic....

I'm not giving up my Ribeyes....

It's now an establisged fact. The only reason no action is taken is simply because this is so common in cooked (browned) foods, though barbecuing meat is about the worst.

Cooking another way, such as microwave or boil, would avoid the formation of acrylamides.

With vaping, eliminating the deposit will not change the taste except to remove the 'bad taste/smell'. Though it is possible that some people may actually like that (to some extent), having been used to combusting tobacco.

 

[tescela]

It's now an establisged fact. The only reason no action is taken is simply because this is so common in cooked (browned) foods, though barbecuing meat is about the worst.

Cooking another way, such as microwave or boil, would avoid the formation of acrylamides.

With vaping, eliminating the deposit will not change the taste except to remove the 'bad taste/smell'. Though it is possible that some people may actually like that (to some extent), having been used to combusting tobacco.

If you ever want to see hypocritical people experience some cognitive dissonance (and the discomfort that accompanies it): wait until somebody is saying something about the stupidity of smokers, and then mention that grilled meat causes cancer. They will immediately respond by saying something like: "Well, I sure like a grilled steak. Besides, everything causes cancer now, right?" Next, remind them that they were just criticizing smokers for consuming something that causes cancer.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[scyllabub]

No more need to fuss so much about cleaning the atty

I've been up all night and am too exhausted to read past the first page of this thread - which I realise is not doing it justice and I will come back.

But I can't help thinking: wouldn't it be easier to make a super-duper atomiser cleaner? I've used coke on some very old ones and not bothered at all with those that perform well - you've put the wind up me now

I think you (and your collaborators) are wonderful, by the way, kinabaloo

scylla

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Phew, glad it's commercial based juice
- I was slightly worried for a bit there

If you ever did formulate your own juice from scatch in a lab,
would the nicotine have to be tobacco extracted,
(presumably EcoPure is, like all other commercial juices)
or do you think you could use synthetic 'clean' nicotine?

Synthetic nicotine would be very expensive, and no 'cleaner' - tobacco grows like a weed, and can contain 3%+ dry weight nicotine, so all our juices contain tobacco-derived nicotine. And if it's fractionated out, it can easily be obtained 99%+ pure. I'd worry far more about contaminants from a synthesizing process frankly - there could be all sorts of really dangerous stuff being formed alongside the nicotine. At least we know what's in tobacco, and unless you burn it, they other chemicals aren't too bad at all.

I'd buy the nicotine in though - I'm not messing about with leaves unless I have to, and I'd have to pay duty on the tobacco anyway so it would end up more expensive per gram of nicotine (even if it is cost-effective as a last resort for personal use.)

(btw 81% phos.acid = pH UP ??)

Sorry, you're quite right - I'm using pH DOWN for cleaning the attys (the pH UP is for my freebasing experiments )

 

[exogenesis]

Thanks for the clarification,
so probably it's pretty much a level playing field for all
non-glycerol based commercial juices.

Especially if it turns out most of the breakdown products
that cause atomizer fouling are due to the stuff in the tobacco
extract itself.

('sugary' flavour additives and
intrinsic glycerol content & breakdown notwithstanding)

 

[kinabaloo]

Thanks for the clarification,
so probably it's pretty much a level playing field for all
non-glycerol based commercial juices.

Especially if it turns out most of the breakdown products
that cause atomizer fouling are due to the stuff in the tobacco
extract itself.

('sugary' flavour additives and
intrinsic glycerol content & breakdown notwithstanding)

If the nicotine is prepared using a careful boil-over at a temp just enough to get the nicotine, then this part of the juice should be expected to leave very little deposit. What is still possible for this fraction of the juice is oxidation. It is likely that one of the chemicals most suspect in this regard (perhaps the most) would be nicotine itself; it oxidises quite easily and has a high BP (247C). Not sure though what would happen next to the oxide - vaporizes or lingers.

The oxide is what gives juice it's yellow color; this turns dark brown as the more and more of the nicotine oxidises through air exposure.

This page is possibly of interest, from a different angle: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4641667.html

 

[Nick O'Teen]

If the nicotine is prepared using a careful boil-over at a temp just enough to get the nicotine, then this part of the juice should be expected to leave very little deposit. What is still possible for this fraction of the juice is oxidation. It is likely that one of the chemicals most suspect in this regard (perhaps the most) would be nicotine itself; it oxidises quite easily and has a high BP (247C). Not sure though what would happen next to the oxide - vaporizes or lingers.

The oxide is what gives juice it's yellow color; this turns dark brown as the more and more of the nicotine oxidises through air exposure.

This page is possibly of interest, from a different angle: Process of preparing nicotine N'-oxide and smoking products containing it - Patent 4641667

I also think, given the acid pH, that whatever they're using to buffer the solution is converting the nicotine into salts (which explains the lack of freebase buzz in our vapour,) rather than free base nicotine.
On the positive side, this will stop the nicotine degrading by oxidation. But on the negative side, you'll unavoidably get citrate/tartrate/sulphate/whatever deposits in the atomizer. These should be soluble, and I don't think compose the black gunk we see, but it would still be nice to remove them if we could.

You're quite right that it's really hard to keep freebase nicotine from reacting with other chemicals in solution (be they acids or atmospheric oxygen.) I can reliably crack it with sodium or potassium hydroxide, but it gunges up the atomizer much faster (I also develop a worrying cough, that tells me it may not be entirely safe, for all that they shouldn't evaporate at under 1300'C)

 

[kinabaloo]

I also think, given the acid pH, that whatever they're using to buffer the solution is converting the nicotine into salts (which explains the lack of freebase buzz in our vapour,) rather than free base nicotine.
On the positive side, this will stop the nicotine degrading by oxidation. But on the negative side, you'll unavoidably get citrate/tartrate/sulphate/whatever deposits in the atomizer. These should be soluble, and I don't think compose the black gunk we see, but it would still be nice to remove them if we could.

You're quite right that it's really hard to keep freebase nicotine from reacting with other chemicals in solution (be they acids or atmospheric oxygen.) I can reliably crack it with sodium or potassium hydroxide, but it gunges up the atomizer much faster (I also develop a worrying cough, that tells me it may not be entirely safe, for all that they shouldn't evaporate at under 1300'C)

I have found a manufacturer of 99% pure nicotine, from tobacco, that is freebase. This is exciting in showing that nicotine content need not involve a deposit, although testing would be required to knw for sure that this feebase nicotine did not decompose, oxidise or react when heated in air in the atomizer. Or that degradation before use would not lead to a deposit.

 

[exogenesis]

Jeez, can't imagine them supplying a pure high grade poison to
any private individual, I would guess they'd require assurances of a
safe-use environment.

Interesting that it can be made to USP conforming purity though


Perhaps Nick could set up a company & produce pure clean e-liquid
at a premium price ('just add your own flavour')


Nick 'the acid pH' of what?,
do you mean e-liquids, cos I measure my TW juice at pH 8.3