The Elephant In The Room ...

[Nick O'Teen]

Nick, did you verify the pH of juice with litmus paper?

The pH meter I used to get pH8.3 was an old (gel filled probe),
but calibrated against standard pH4 & pH7 buffers.

Yes, blue litmus paper turned pink with RS lychee and watermelon, but it wasn't the posh rainbow stuff that indicates the actual pH value - just a bit of old strip. I've got an old Blulab meter kicking around somewhere, but the probes are shot and I'm too mean to fork out 90 quid for another set now I don't need it on a daily basis.

Well, I vaped my triple-distilled juice most of last night, and it's pretty yuk. I think repeated distillation is definitely degrading it rather than refining it

 

[Nick O'Teen]

A thought on flavors:

A large part of what gives apple its taste is malic acid. This has a very high BP and will not vaporize in the atomizer. But a shorter chain mild acid such as acetic acid (BP 119C) could be used for the sourness (and work just as well ? - as sour is one of the five distinct tastes)

Hmm, it would taste sour, but I doubt it would be the right kind of sourness - wouldn't it taste pickled, don't you think? (hmm... piccalilli e-juice anyone? )

 

[kinabaloo]

Hmm, it would taste sour, but I doubt it would be the right kind of sourness - wouldn't it taste pickled, don't you think? (hmm... piccalilli e-juice anyone? )

You miss the pont. Sour is sour. It it the addition of sweet, salt etc, plus the all important aroma that identifies it as picallily or apple.

 

[kinabaloo]

Yes, blue litmus paper turned pink with RS lychee and watermelon, but it wasn't the posh rainbow stuff that indicates the actual pH value - just a bit of old strip. I've got an old Blulab meter kicking around somewhere, but the probes are shot and I'm too mean to fork out 90 quid for another set now I don't need it on a daily basis.

Well, I vaped my triple-distilled juice most of last night, and it's pretty yuk. I think repeated distillation is definitely degrading it rather than refining it

"Yuk".

Care to elaborate?

Less taste? Less nic buzz? Some new unpleasant taste? Any change in color?

Well, it is a bit irrelevant given we know now that a purified nicotine is available.
What would be really interesting is to know what happens to that in the atoiser if mixed solely with PG.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

You miss the pont. Sour is sour. It it the addition of sweet, salt etc, plus the all important aroma that identifies it as picallily or apple.

Vinegar has its own aroma, and if you heat it, it sure doesn't smell of apples. I think it would be hard to tweak that round to a crisp, apple-y flavour.
Maybe there are other aromatising compounds in vinegar, but I'd always assumed it was the acetic acid that gave it that smell.
I certainly know that the taste of pure citric acid and pure malic acid are very different, even if they are both sour, since I use them both in some of my homebrews (I've never felt the urge to add acetic acid to a liqueur )

 

[Nick O'Teen]

"Yuk".

Care to elaborate?

Less taste? Less nic buzz? Some new unpleasant taste? Any change in color?

If anything more taste but less flavour. Sort of musty, with a mouthfeel like chewing gum that's been chewed too long, if that makes any sense. It just sort of sits on your tastebuds without doing anything. The vapour density is okay, but a lot less of a throat hit.

Same nic buzz, but only because I've diluted it less - a big drop in yield, though whether that's because the nicotine is being lost or degraded, I can't tell.

Still absolutely clear and colourless.

Well, it is a bit irrelevant given we know now that a purified nicotine is available.
What would be really interesting is to know what happens to that in the atoiser if mixed solely with PG.

I mixed it about 3 parts to 1 part PG (but single-distilled is strong enough that I only need to mix it 1 part to 3 or 4 parts PG.) - that seems to be about equivalent to 20-30mg/ml by subjective effect. The coil still looks silvery not black, but it's too early to know if it'll stay that way. The original solvent was water, but there might be some VG/VG-breakdown products from the flasks (I had to add a few ml at each stage to ensure it stayed liquid, though I was careful not to exceed 255'C)

 

[kinabaloo]

If anything more taste but less flavour. Sort of musty, with a mouthfeel like chewing gum that's been chewed too long, if that makes any sense. It just sort of sits on your tastebuds without doing anything. The vapour density is okay, but a lot less of a throat hit.

Same nic buzz, but only because I've diluted it less - a big drop in yield, though whether that's because the nicotine is being lost or degraded, I can't tell.

Still absolutely clear and colourless.

I mixed it about 3 parts to 1 part PG (but single-distilled is strong enough that I only need to mix it 1 part to 3 or 4 parts PG.) - that seems to be about equivalent to 20-30mg/ml by subjective effect. The coil still looks silvery not black, but it's too early to know if it'll stay that way. The original solvent was water, but there might be some VG/VG-breakdown products from the flasks (I had to add a few ml at each stage to ensure it stayed liquid, though I was careful not to exceed 255'C)

Thanks - that's certainly quite a lot to mull over.

On that last point, although decomposition of VG begins below its BP it might be a very small % until go to hgher temperatures; this suggests that VG might be usable as a minor fraction with atomizers that were temperature controlled.

 

[kinabaloo]

Vinegar has its own aroma, and if you heat it, it sure doesn't smell of apples. I think it would be hard to tweak that round to a crisp, apple-y flavour.
Maybe there are other aromatising compounds in vinegar, but I'd always assumed it was the acetic acid that gave it that smell.
I certainly know that the taste of pure citric acid and pure malic acid are very different, even if they are both sour, since I use them both in some of my homebrews (I've never felt the urge to add acetic acid to a liqueur )

I picked a bad example. Maybe in practice it just can't work out as simply as I hoped because as you said, some compounds will be both taste and aroma; peraps all to some extent. But there could be some volatle acid that just has the basic sour taste but very little aroma?

Hmm, as I suspected originally, some flavors may not be (exactly)replicable in vapor. Taking apple as an example, there are varieties of taste but basically a sour taste with a little sweetness and then 'apple aroma'. Malic acid will not get into the vapor. The aroma could be achieved but I wonder how the sourness if achieved in apple flavor juices ... Or perhaps they just rely on aroma.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

I picked a bad example. Maybe in practice it just can't work out as simply as I hoped because as you said, some compounds will be both taste and aroma; peraps all to some extent. But there could be some volatle acid that just has the basic sour taste but very little aroma?

Tartaric acid has much less intrinsic flavour - I've used it occasionally, but it's too sour and unfruity on its own in drinks I find (I believe they use it in extra-sour sweet flavours.)
Unfortunately it has a flash point rather than a boiling point, so probably not a great juice addition

Hmm, as I suspected originally, some flavors may not be (exactly)replicable in vapor. Taking apple as an example, there are varieties of taste but basically a sour taste with a little sweetness and then 'apple aroma'. Malic acid will not get into the vapor. The aroma could be achieved but I wonder how the sourness if achieved in apple flavor juices ... Or perhaps they just rely on aroma.

polyphenols for the flavour, and... I don't know what for the sourness. There's a great sourness to the Chinese lychee juice that's proving elusive in my own blending. I can get a good fruity flavour and a little tartness, but I really want more. I wish I knew how they did it.

 

[kinabaloo]

Tartaric acid has much less intrinsic flavour - I've used it occasionally, but it's too sour and unfruity on its own in drinks I find (I believe they use it in extra-sour sweet flavours.)
Unfortunately it has a flash point rather than a boiling point, so probably not a great juice addition

polyphenols for the flavour, and... I don't know what for the sourness. There's a great sourness to the Chinese lychee juice that's proving elusive in my own blending. I can get a good fruity flavour and a little tartness, but I really want more. I wish I knew how they did it.

Oh, yes tartaric acid; I remember this from my winemaking days so much the sour acid in grapes.

Elsewhere I saw mention of citric acid in a comercial use, but as it decoposes at 175C it must be there as a buffer or preservative?

Perhaps the sense of sourness is achieved purely by aroma?

Was just drinking some Innocent smoothie, lots of sour fruit in it; have been checking some other fruit acids such as ascorbic, but not found one that would vape yet that might be suitable (other than acetic).

Have you tried some of the commonly used ketones that act like flavor enhancers?

Alcohol for tartness?

 

[exogenesis]

Might be easiest (quicker) to just do dry-residue tests. All the dry residue will be left to degrade on the coil.

Maybe you're right, perhaps someone can do that.

Given the direction of this forum

= mostly high speed face-book type posts, with little or no (re)organisation,

I think I've lost the will to make the effort on various things,
I can't put in the effort just for one or two members
to make comments on, not enough people are interested.

Too many new drivel-threads to wade through every day to glean so
little real stuff.

No reply from nicobrand apart from a confirmation of received message.
If they do, seems unlikely, I'll say.

Maybe see you on the other side of the dark side of the moon...

ciao

 

[kinabaloo]

Maybe you're right, perhaps someone can do that.

Given the direction of this forum

= mostly high speed face-book type posts, with little or no (re)organisation,

I think I've lost the will to make the effort on various things,
I can't put in the effort just for one or two members
to make comments on, not enough people are interested.

Too many new drivel-threads to wade through every day to glean so
little real stuff.

No reply from nicobrand apart from a confirmation of received message.
If they do, seems unlikely, I'll say.

Maybe see you on the other side of the dark side of the moon...

ciao

I know your feeling.

And it is a pity that not more people take an active interest in the scence side.

You did great work once more on the metal foam and I said so in that thread. I wouldn't like to think that you tink I am suggesting that you take all the burden of performing the experiments; just do what you find interesting and enjoy doing

For example, with the deposits per different flavors, I suggested a simple dry residue test because it is quicker (not quite the same as actually heating in the atomiser, but close). Not to detract from your idea at all. And not directed at you Exo. I was imagining how would be best done by many people pooling their results to get a wide range of results. Take one teaspoon and measure out say 2ml of juice (a one day's juice sacrifice) and heat till dry (or no further change); ideally report with a photo.

I will think how we might organise the best info/results/images/diagrams/best practice/unknowns etc ...

Forums can be dispiriting sometimes. But there's quite a few would miss you if you were not around ...

 

[LuckyCharm]

And it is a pity that not more people take an active interest in the scence side.

I am interested in this forum, although rarely qualified to comment. I don't own much of the equipment mentioned here, and only understand a sliver of the terms used, but I greatly admire the work you folks are doing.

I will think how we might organise the best info/results/images/diagrams/best practice/unknowns etc ...

Try creating a Google group! There, you can organize threads, upload and share documents, create pages, and more. I create a Google group for every organizing effort I embark on (mostly political).

Forums can be dispiriting sometimes. But there's quite a few would miss you if you were not around ...

I am one of them!

~~Cheryl

 

[kinabaloo]

Thanks Cheryl - that's worth considering

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Oh, yes tartaric acid; I remember this from my winemaking days so much the sour acid in grapes.

Elsewhere I saw mention of citric acid in a comercial use, but as it decoposes at 175C it must be there as a buffer or preservative?

Yes - I've tried adding it, but it adds no discernable flavour. Should have some anti-oxidant properties, though I've not done any controlled testing.
Maybe this is what makes the RS juice acidic? Or maybe they've found a suitably volatile acid.
I worry that since it's not volatile, and decomposes (I'm not sure what into off-hand,) it will probably just add to the gunge on the coils, more than outweighing its antioxidant potential.

Perhaps the sense of sourness is achieved purely by aroma?

I wouldn't have thought so - the RS lychee juice has a lot more flavour than smell anyway, and it gets your saliva flowing (one of the reasons I like it so much - no dry mouth )

Was just drinking some Innocent smoothie, lots of sour fruit in it; have been checking some other fruit acids such as ascorbic, but not found one that would vape yet that might be suitable (other than acetic).

Have you tried some of the commonly used ketones that act like flavor enhancers?

No. I think maybe I'll open another Sigma account - I'm definitely going to need a wider range of chemicals than I can pick up locally or on eBay.

Alcohol for tartness?

Alcohol improves the throat hit in a bland juice, and adds a certain amount of vinosity to the flavour, but it's not really tartness. Very useful for taking the edge off a cloying flavour or adding warmth, but it's an aroma of spirits rather than an acidic taste.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

I know your feeling.

And it is a pity that not more people take an active interest in the scence side.

You did great work once more on the metal foam and I said so in that thread. I wouldn't like to think that you tink I am suggesting that you take all the burden of performing the experiments; just do what you find interesting and enjoy doing

For example, with the deposits per different flavors, I suggested a simple dry residue test because it is quicker (not quite the same as actually heating in the atomiser, but close). Not to detract from your idea at all. And not directed at you Exo. I was imagining how would be best done by many people pooling their results to get a wide range of results. Take one teaspoon and measure out say 2ml of juice (a one day's juice sacrifice) and heat till dry (or no further change); ideally report with a photo.

I will think how we might organise the best info/results/images/diagrams/best practice/unknowns etc ...

Forums can be dispiriting sometimes. But there's quite a few would miss you if you were not around ...

I second that!

I know what you mean, but that's the way forums are - open to all, and mostly filled with chatter (usually "the same old" chatter.) I don't even attempt to keep up with all the threads - there'd be no time to do anything else (sadly that means you can only ever find a small proportion of the gold, and it keeps getting continually buried even deeper as time goes on.) But there's a lot of ground-breaking stuff out there, of which you've done a goodly amount yourself.

A google group sounds like a great idea to organize a lot of the work that's been done so far and work that's ongoing, or there's the wiki of course. They might be more suitable structures for categorising experimental results (not that there isn't a place for forums - they serve a valuable purpose, but they're just a bit too dynamic and unstructured for recording knowledge accessibly. Good for bouncing ideas around though.)

Anyway, hope you don't disappear from here - you would be missed.

 

[kinabaloo]

Preventing oxidation of the juice ingredients is an important measure. I wonder how well tocopherols might work in this regard; not sure if they can have an effect on the non-oily components of the juice even though the two are emulsified.

Interesting side link:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3408-oil-and-water-do-mix-after-all.html

 

[kinabaloo]

Experiments and tests need to follow hypotheses: theory and chatting over ideas

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Preventing oxidation of the juice ingredients is an important measure. I wonder how well tocopherols might work in this regard; not sure if they can have an effect on the non-oily components of the juice even though the two are emulsified.

They're certainly more heat-stable than many other antioxidants (and volatile enough to clear by evaporation,) but I agree, they'd have greatly reduced effect (possibly zero) on non-oil-soluble components. since it's my understanding they would only associate ionically with lipid structures.
It's possible there'd be some boundary interaction in a true emulsion, but most of the oil content of our juices is properly miscible (with glycols at least,) and not suspended in droplets where boundary effects might be significant, so you're not going to get the same surfactant tension between hydrophilic and hydrophobic molecules.

But I don't know. Glycol-oil interactions may differ markedly from water-oil interactions, so it might be feasible. I'll look into it.

Interesting side link:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...after-all.html

That... is typically mindboggling. I sometimes think that sheer bloody-mindedness is a fundamental law of nature (just when you think you know how stuff works...)
I think it's safe to say, I don't have the equipment (or frankly the time or patience,) to explore the role dissolved gases play in glycol-oil interactions Fascinating though.

Re: the triple-distilled juice - the coil is no longer so silver and shiny, but definitely darkening (at about the same rate as commercial juice I would guess, though I haven't done a puff-for-puff comparison.)

 

[surbitonPete]

I have been following this thread with interest but it's all really above my head when it comes to the science so I can't join in with anything useful to say.