The FDA Loses Appeal!
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This ruling is enough to lighten every vaper's holiday spirits!
Happy Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa/Solstice/Festivus/Holidays to us all!
Happy Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa/Solstice/Festivus/Holidays to us all!
I'm still planning on stocking the doomsday locker a little fuller. Since they can't attack the devices they'll go for the juices. I see yummy flavors being on their got to get rid of agenda.
good plan, always have a 6 month supply of anything that makes you happy.
Definite win for the manufacturers and equipment vendors. Very cautiously optimistic because:
We're not out of the woods yet. FDA's shill group is showing it's hand by making that statement.
On deck: Tobacco regulation and what it means to juice vendors.
The argument is that the classification of "tobacco" as the majority of the world knows it, isn't essentially the same as nicotine. Of course when it comes to "winning the fight" the ignorant don't care about the difference.
Plainly put: Liquid nicotine is already regulated. Either they will have to change the regulations, or they are going to end up on the same slippery slope.
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From a similar thread:
This is Ok ruling for vapers in general. However, one stunningly bad thing that does come from it is that we now are just classified as tobacco users again(with all the restrictions and social shunning that comes with it). We will now never be able to say that vaping is or may be safer than smoking. There will never be any rigorous testing done, so we will never actually know if , in fact, vaping is safer(all anectdotal evidence and assumptions aside). Flavors are out the window. Indoor banning restrictions back. Taxes are definitely in. And now Big Tobacco is free to take over the entire industry as it is now in their purview.
When I started vaping back in June 2009, this is exactly what we did not want.
Well at least we know now who was the "evil mastermind" behind all of this(of the 3 possible conspirators - FDA, Big Tobacco, and Big Pharma). Congratulations, it was Big Tobacco..... Oh, and also, congratulations to Matt Salmon(who was AWOL and in hiding there for a bit - we now know the whole time he was dumping ECA, he was actually positioning himself as CEO of NJOY- What a guy!!!!!!)
And congratulations to all vapers. We are now back to being, legally and officially "smokers"
What a victory?!?!?! I know this was not what I wanted back when I started vaping
ALSO:
Everyone, I HOPE, does realize what is going on here. Matt Salmon(who had been mysteriously AWOL from ECA for some time) and NJOY are now going to go about the process of having FDA squash all the other smaller suppliers being that NJOY is , technically, the only ecig supplier in compliance with current Tobacco Control Act(i.e. no flavors, correct labeling, etc...). Everyone is making it like this appeals win is such a huge Victory day for vapers. I see it as the complete opposite; it gives NJOY AND the existing Big Tobacco companies(who are now going to use there huge stores of capital to start manufacturing and marketing ecig products that are also "in compliance" with the Tobacco Act). As I said in another thread, we are now, ostensibly, smokers again & the industry will now be just another offshoot of Big T. At least the small basement "homebrew" suppliers will be put out of business.
This is Ok ruling for vapers in general. However, one stunningly bad thing that does come from it is that we now are just classified as tobacco users again(with all the restrictions and social shunning that comes with it). We will now never be able to say that vaping is or may be safer than smoking. There will never be any rigorous testing done, so we will never actually know if , in fact, vaping is safer(all anectdotal evidence and assumptions aside). Flavors are out the window. Indoor banning restrictions back. Taxes are definitely in. And now Big Tobacco is free to take over the entire industry as it is now in their purview.
When I started vaping back in June 2009, this is exactly what we did not want.
Well at least we know now who was the "evil mastermind" behind all of this(of the 3 possible conspirators - FDA, Big Tobacco, and Big Pharma). Congratulations, it was Big Tobacco..... Oh, and also, congratulations to Matt Salmon(who was AWOL and in hiding there for a bit - we now know the whole time he was dumping ECA, he was actually positioning himself as CEO of NJOY- What a guy!!!!!!)
And congratulations to all vapers. We are now back to being, legally and officially "smokers"
What a victory?!?!?! I know this was not what I wanted back when I started vaping
ALSO:
Everyone, I HOPE, does realize what is going on here. Matt Salmon(who had been mysteriously AWOL from ECA for some time) and NJOY are now going to go about the process of having FDA squash all the other smaller suppliers being that NJOY is , technically, the only ecig supplier in compliance with current Tobacco Control Act(i.e. no flavors, correct labeling, etc...). Everyone is making it like this appeals win is such a huge Victory day for vapers. I see it as the complete opposite; it gives NJOY AND the existing Big Tobacco companies(who are now going to use there huge stores of capital to start manufacturing and marketing ecig products that are also "in compliance" with the Tobacco Act). As I said in another thread, we are now, ostensibly, smokers again & the industry will now be just another offshoot of Big T. At least the small basement "homebrew" suppliers will be put out of business.
woo-hoo, Great news but worry-some that the juice may be targeted now. They banned flavored analogs I hope they don't carry that over to ecigs. I also wonder how local municipalities will now interpret the ecig as an extension of new smoking bans. Interesting to see how things will play out.
Of course they will!! NJOY has already done this, why do you think they did??? because now THEY are the only LEGAL ecig producer. The industry has just been totally castrated. Read this:
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It would have been better for ecig/eliquid producers just to have done REAL studies while they had the chance. They could have then had some ammo to show FDA(and other gov't regulators) & the industry may have escaped BOTH tobacco & all-out drug regulation & could have maintained some semblance of what it currently is.
Not to mention this:
Calls for new rules to prevent sales except through direct, face-to-face exchanges between a retailer and a consumer.
If they ban the flavors, so what? Our suppliers then sell a bottle of slightly discounted unflavored nic juice and a nominally priced bottle of mixed flavoring. When you receive them you mix the flavoring into the juice and have the flavor you wanted. There are ways to get around just about anything. Just ask any gun owner that wanted multi shot capability on their single shot rifle.
AND Shan.... ECF may be seeing it's final days due to MASSIVE tobacco advertising restrictions that have been in place even before the FSPTC Act... Since ECF is, ostensibly, an advertising website for a myriad of the ,once, major suppliers.
NJOY and BIG Tobacco win....everyone else loses. Well I guess we'll(the vapers) all still have our new NJOY or Philip Morris Ecigs to inhale non-flavored low nic gov't regulated and taxed eliquid(also produced by Philip Morris or NJOY)...
I would think al bit more about this "win" before we all start popping open the bubbly.
Oh, crap, I didn't think about that. Regulation as a tobacco product probably means all of our mail-order liquids, parts, and supplies will be illegal because of the PACT act. My next order will be for as much unflavored nic as I can afford.
Here is the slippery slope: If they start slamming and fining vendors for claiming that the vapor is safer than secondhand, then Sottera or whichever large vendor with the capital, could drag the FDA back into court essentially telling them to prove it. Claims like that would cause financial harm to businesses.
This would be more likely to fall under NRT than actual big tobacco. They make cinnamon and mint flavored Nicorette. Clove cigarettes are still available. Menthol is still technically a flavor.
Ever looked at the ingredient lists for cigarettes? They do use oils and extracts. Anise, carrot oil, basil oil, cinnamon, cocoa, corn oil, dill seed oil, etc.. It wouldn't be very hard not to challenge that if Big Tobacco can claim it as an ingredient, we can too. It they want to regulate, they can't play favorites or they'll get sued. This would be where they would have to determine which regulations are in play.
I can deal with unflavored nic, because I can always get a 0 nic flavoring bottle from my favorite vendor and add it in. As far as I'm concerned the 0 nic is still just food flavoring, and not able to be touched by tobacco regulation.
That is what the ruling just covered. They can't do that with all of the equipment. (Edited for clarification. My apologies.) You should still be able to buy a replacement battery, atty, or cart because it isn't in itself tobacco derived. You don't pay tobacco taxes on rolling paper or pipes. That is essentially what the ruling clarified.
The only thing they could force is that the liquid needs to be a face to face transaction. That is only if the liquid falls under cigarette regulation. I can still order a pack of Nicorette and whichever box of patches online and have them shipped to my house. I've had several manufacturers send me trial patches and gum. Even Walmart sent me free samples of Nicorette.
This is where the FDA needs to tread carefully on regulation.
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This ^^^ is so much horse crap. There is no evidence that Big Tobacco had any part in this at all. They are investing millions in snus type products. It was Big Pharm that had the most to lose and funds most of the anti groups that came out against PV's. It was Big Pharm that was the largest contributor to Senator Lautenberg's campaign and who requested a ban early last year. It was Big Pharm's Trade Association that published a news letter calling for a ban of PV's. It is Big Pharm where many upper management FDA personnel go to work for after leaving the FDA.
We know the original judge in the case that ruled in favor of SE and NJOY was appointed by the previous administration. Anyone know who appointed the Appeal's Court judges?
Yes, or at least some variation of that theme, like shoving the whole business into the hands of Big Tobacco, those who are eminently more adept at pushing Nicotine and paying into the congressional tip jar.
I think shanagan and markarich are right. Classifying the e-cig as a tobacco product means tobacco regulations and restrictions, tobacco prices, the horrifyingly high tobacco taxes..
This will destroy most vendors if this turns out to be the classification bestowed upon the liquid too.
However - any class they'd want - a drug device that they might just ban - a tobacco product they'll strip of its good e-cigness and likely fall into the hands of big tobacco - an OTC drug that requires ID like nic patches or sudafed but probably 10x as expensive - a prescription drug 10x as expensive - any class besides herbal - I always knew it would fall into their hands (them : the richest folk that really control our nation : them).
I wonder if non-nicotine liquids could go under the herbal category? And folks could buy their own nicotine for them?
Probably not.. Not if it's -all- considered a tobacco product regardless of whether or not it contains nicotine.. Or if they regulate the nicotine more strictly.. I guess we will see how this plays out, huh?
In my hopefulness I hoped some day maybe the courts would come up with a new class for them. That is unlikely, since with the money they go.
This will destroy most vendors if this turns out to be the classification bestowed upon the liquid too.
However - any class they'd want - a drug device that they might just ban - a tobacco product they'll strip of its good e-cigness and likely fall into the hands of big tobacco - an OTC drug that requires ID like nic patches or sudafed but probably 10x as expensive - a prescription drug 10x as expensive - any class besides herbal - I always knew it would fall into their hands (them : the richest folk that really control our nation : them).
I wonder if non-nicotine liquids could go under the herbal category? And folks could buy their own nicotine for them?
Probably not.. Not if it's -all- considered a tobacco product regardless of whether or not it contains nicotine.. Or if they regulate the nicotine more strictly.. I guess we will see how this plays out, huh?
In my hopefulness I hoped some day maybe the courts would come up with a new class for them. That is unlikely, since with the money they go.
Actually, I find this part of the tobacco regulation potentially difficult, too:
"
Requires tobacco companies and importers to reveal all product ingredients and seek FDA approval for any new tobacco products."
The disclosure that was resisted by some may suddenly become mandatory. And, since they are essentially a new tobacco product, it appears that the FDA may have the ability to refuse to allow any of them.
"
Requires tobacco companies and importers to reveal all product ingredients and seek FDA approval for any new tobacco products."
The disclosure that was resisted by some may suddenly become mandatory. And, since they are essentially a new tobacco product, it appears that the FDA may have the ability to refuse to allow any of them.
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