The Honeymoon is over....

[Belletrist]

i love V4L. totally. but i've also had order after order, etc. show up screwed up one way or another. and i'm not a complainer, and it's not a deal breaker, but it is really frustrating when you ordered to get one particular thing, that one thing, and then you... don't get it. but i don't mind it too badly if it happens to me... it's when i'm in 2packsaday's type of situation where it's an order for a friend who wants to be walked through... then it's not just frustrating, it reflects poorly on me, and is extra disappointing for the first-time-vaper.

i've defended V4L like my own also, but it just seems like the error rate for orders is going up and up, and not improving. granted i don't know how many orders are going through that are not messed up, but when i have three in a row, and two people that i personally referred each have one within the same time frame... i either have to assume mark doesn't like me, or there's another problem.

please understand this is only constructive criticism, and i'm not voicing this even because it bothers me too incredibly much, but not all of V4L's customers belong to this subforum, yanno? i know the guys (and gals) always make things right... if/when you can properly get a hold of them. i guess i'm just saying that i hope that fixing this noticeably ongoing issue is a priority. because if it's not, i know a lot of people will buy juice elsewhere, and a lot of first-timers may not order again, and i want to see V4L keep growing in a long-term, sustainable way. and being a main source for consumables--the juice--is one of the most important issues there.

i'm a mailman stalker myself, everyone knows it. but i would be glad for my (and my referrals') packages to temporarily take another day or two to ship, if they'd be right first time. i'm sure (god, i hope, lol) that V4L will eventually have people hired specifically for stock, inventory, and packing, and a more comprehensive set of checks to make sure things are right, and then can get back to same day/next day shipping out... but in the meantime, i'd rather have it be right.

 

[Adrenalynn]

I think V4L is at one of those "humps" we see in startups. They're at a point where they need someone to run just operations and create the policy and procedure that goes into that. It's a painful hump, probably the most painful, especially when they bring that operations person on board. That person doesn't pack and ship. They don't do customer service. They don't handle incoming stock. They build and manage the team and processes that encompass all those things.

I've been there on both sides of the equation, and it's rocky for a little while. But once that person gets a handle on it things smooth out until the next hump. (that one being maintaining growth and funding that growth)

If a company grows too fast, they outstrip their ability to bring in and train qualified staff. If they staff too fast, they outstrip their ability to make their burn-rate. It's really a classic rock-and-hard-place.

None of this matters to the consumer. It's an internal problem that V4L has to address. We have a rare opportunity to kabitz about it here as a collective.

I'm willing to bet they make it - just in the nick of time. Because it's always "just in the nick of time" with a startup.

Oh the joys.

Just know that these are problems every successful business faces at some point in their growth. These humps are all documented ad-naseum - but seeing them coming doesn't mean you get to completely dodge 'em either.

They'll make it. The trick now is to do what Steve does best and try to retain as much loyal customer base as you can while you're making the tough adjustments.

All IMHO, of course, but from a serial entrepreneur (who's done it something close to "right" a few times and "wrong" a few more... )

 

[keyzygirl]

When I started buying from V4L,Steve was running it in his house.Im amazed how fast this has all happened.He finds the best people for the jobs he needs done,He sent Leaford to china to create a better version of the kr8.If the amount of effort means anything,things will be just Smilin around here in no time.Im impressed and proud of Steve.I wish I had his drive.

 

[lonercom]

Definitely. The gang at V4L are getting a reputation for stellar customer service and value. This is in no small part to our proselytizing and rave reviews here and other places. While we are inclined to be more patient due to past experiences, new customers will not. That’s why it’s imperative that we continue to hold V4L to that same standard and make a point of letting them know when the problems recur.

Without knowing how work is distributed, I like your idea of having one person delegated to checking the order before they are packed. Some other ideas that might help would be having each person that handles the order initial it:

Picked-RJL
Verified-WDT
Packed-DMJ

This way it would be easier to identify who might need to slow down and be more careful.

I’m sure that when orders get processed, it’s chaotic and everyone does every job. Maybe it’s time to assign specific people to specific tasks or hire more help. That in itself is a scary proposition. It’s expensive to hire and train new people and reliable employees are hard to find. “Gotta kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince.”

Growing pains are a good sign for business but can be difficult for customers.

I, for one, am happy to see Steve and company grow. As long as they remain easy to contact and willing to make things right, I’ll stick around and hold them to the “Smilin Standard.”

 

[jeffree]

A lot of wisdom in the post above, Adrenalynn. I guess I've been lucky that I haven't run into problems during the past month and a half, but such quick growth always demands some adapting. The V4L gang's committed presence in this forum should help.

 

[Adrenalynn]

Thanks, and I think that that's where 2Packs was heading in his second-to-last paragraph so the nod to him as well.

With call it 400 orders a day, even a 1% failure rate means we'll see four messed up orders a day. We're on a forum where every messed-up order gets ground down to an exceptionally fine point. So their failure rate must be reasonably decent - certainly in the single digits. Their product failure rate is a bit higher, but Leaford is in China pounding on that now.

They just need to get a solid handle on operations - and I have reason to suspect they're working on that diligently. These guys have been around the block and they're not fools.

In the meanwhile - yeah, there are some dissatisfied customers for all the "right" reasons. That sucks. It's all about preventing attrition right now and I know Steve's the absolute best man for that job.


A thought dawns on me as I write this, though. This product, this market, this concept isn't exactly ready for prime-time yet, IMHO. We're still early adopters, and there's early adopter pain going on here too. That's great for us since we get to help shape the entire industry. It's also bad for us because we get to help shape the entire industry. I think there'll be a major shakedown over the next 18-24 months. Incredibly fascinating to speculate. I'm looking forward to the ride.

 

[Darrigaaz]

We're on a forum where every messed-up order gets ground down to an exceptionally fine point. So their failure rate must be reasonably decent - certainly in the single digits.

You always hear about the bad experiences but rarely hear of the good ones when dealing with customer service.

You can have 10 good dealings with a company, but the 1 bad one will stick out in your memory for far longer.

 

[Adrenalynn]

Completely agree - although it's a little different here since the company has such a .. well call it for what it is - fan-base. And that's a testament to how they try to repair that 1:10 you speak of.

I do believe that every dissatisfied customer is one more nail in your coffin, so heading it off is best if you can.

 

[TBM]

I understand that they have grown really quickly. But as a newbie who has only been on the forums for a month, when I read all the rave reviews about V4L I of course decided to order. My 1st order came with "perfumey" carts and also 2 carts that would not thread onto the battery in my second order a few days later. I made a post asking about the perfumey carts since this was my first order and I had not experienced this before. I begged in the post for help from a V4L person. I had PM'd Mark and Steve with no response. I also emailed customer service. I received a email stating to put it in my comments on my next order.

So for order 3 I put it in the comments. Then I ordered my 4th order the very next day since taxes came in figuring that I was good to go and they would correct my issues. This was 4 orders in around 2 weeks. I received both 3rd and 4th orders yesterday. My 3rd order came missing a item I ordered and also did not receive the items they were supposed to fix. Now at this point I am flabbergasted. Right now I can't afford to place another order in hopes of getting the other items that I have already paid for but do not have. I have ordered customer service again and even though I don't want to I asked if I could just pay shipping on my missing and needing replaced items. I did get a email back saying they will ship out my missing item and the 2 cartos but not the perfumey carts that I had originally been told to put in the comments. The reasoning because I hadn't put it in the comments of my last order. Well of course not I had put it in the comments of the order 1 day prior to my last order. Since then no response. To me this is very frustrating.

Though I have to say my 4th order was PERFECT not one think out of place.

Now V4L is not the only company that has left a item out of an order for me this week lol 2 others did also,but with the other companies I had a immediate response and shipping of said item without any hassle.

Go ahead and bash me I know it is going to happen. I am just speaking of my experience. I have gone to the company like some will tell me.

 

[TBM]

You always hear about the bad experiences but rarely hear of the good ones when dealing with customer service.

You can have 10 good dealings with a company, but the 1 bad one will stick out in your memory for far longer.

But how would someone feel having 3 out of 4 bad experiences with a company? I know my fault for keep going back but I LOVE the products that I get that are correct it's the other "stuff" that is upsetting.

 

[aubergine]

This isn't the only biz in this game with growing pains, and all the hassles with customs aren't the only ones. I'm too curious not to try out other juices (very far from an out-of-stock problem at my house) and amongst the well-reviewed American brewers (does 'brewers' work?) that I've checked out, one has stopped taking any orders for now as she's in the hospital, and promises that her friend will get out already ordered stuff as quickly as possible, one was completely out of two items that I ordered and I think waiting on Loranne's, and at least two others have websites that are too confusing to try to deal with - all well-reviewed vendors. One takes no orders on weekends; I guess those are mixing days or something. I got one screwed up order from one of these very nice people, too. And honestly I have no really irritated complaints for any of these people - it's sort of like buying stuff on Etsy. Human beans. And also possibly because V4L's my ecig home and combines the friendly intimacy and personal concern of buying small biz with really excellent and much more professional service - I think the usual deal is OMG it shipped so fast! - and pretty damned reliable product for me.
Sooner or later, years and decades later, this all may be corporate enterprise with much tighter controls on everything. Philip Morris has a heap of ecig prototypes gathering dust on their shelves, ugh, or pharma may end up producing some wretched little beige thing that tastes like spit and needs a prescription, with every one exactly like the other and not a bad batt in the lot...and look at the crap in the malls! Who knows which way the wind will blow?
You never know you're gonna be nostalgic until next year. And the beat goes on.

 

[Belletrist]

yeah, TBM, that's what concerns me, and not in an "omg someone's gonna be mad" way but in a sincerely "v4l should really fix this cause i love them" way. incidentally, i had a similar rash of messed up orders/comments ignored, etc. ~hugs~

& aubergine, agreed on all points, but ESPECIALLY that last line. i'd just hate for v4l to be the ones experiencing that ahead o' the crowd.

 

[Michelle43]

Before I state my opinion I just want to say that out of all my orders, around 10-15, nothing has been mixed up.

For those who have had issues, I wish V4L would just correct the problem right away instead of requiring the customer to order again and have it fixed then. The whole "in the comments of your next order" thing kinda rubs me the wrong way. Especially if it wasn't the customer who made the error.

 

[Belletrist]

Before I state my opinion I just want to say that out of all my orders, around 10-15, nothing has been mixed up.

For those who have had issues, I wish V4L would just correct the problem right away instead of requiring the customer to order again and have it fixed then. The whole "in the comments of your next order" thing kinda rubs me the wrong way. Especially if it wasn't the customer who made the error.

yeah, i mean, it depends on what it is. if it's "Belle broke her PT" then i'm cool with waiting or with making another order, or paying shipping. if it's "Someone packed the wrong stuff," then having to pay shipping again or order when i'm not ready isn't pleasant. it's not an issue if i AM ordering again, but if now that i'm 'settling in' as a vaper, i am placing maaaybe an order every few weeks.

 

[jeffree]

You never know you're gonna be nostalgic until next year. And the beat goes on.

Yeah, as Joni sings, ya don't know what ya got till it's gone. It's interesting for me that I researched the e-cig scene exactly a year ago and couldn't find enough positives to jump in. Two months ago, I did the same and found, after a full weekend of online snooping, that V4L was now setting the gold standard. (That was after I realized that Greensmoke's affiliate program was likely skewing the reviews I found.) So I gave V4L a shot and haven't looked back. I quit smoking cigs (easily) and have enjoyed the whole forum thing here to no end.

Where things go in the next year is anyone's guess, but I'd assume based on my own excellent experience that this market will continue to explode. Like everyone else here, I'm trusting and hoping that "our team" rides the wave successfully. But I do expect things to change down the road, especially the small family feel here where Steve, Leaford, or others respond personally to many of our comments. There just isn't enough time in the day for most bigger companies to do that. And that's OK with me as long as the products, prices, and service remain reasonably solid.

 

[Adrenalynn]

The whole "in the comments of your next order" thing kinda rubs me the wrong way.

I can appreciate that. And there is a simple solution to that. First the underlying problem there:

Shipping on any of these items is more expensive than the margin on the item (and many times the entire retail net) itself.

They mess-up a couple bottles of juice. You paid $6 for them. Let's say V4L paid $4 for them. Flat shipping is $7. Ok - they ship it out to you right away. Like most companies, they require you ship back the unused product so they can restock it. Now $6 just became $16, and V4L received $4 total.

Subtract a man-hour at say $35 (with overhead) to deal with it. Now V4L paid almost $40 to get $4.

The obvious solution is to say "hey, if you're going to make an order soon anyway, let's just roll it together". The second possible solution is to raise prices dramatically to cover these short-falls. If 1:10 orders has a problem, the problem costs $36, then the average order needs to go up 3.60. And just for kicks, pretend the average order is $50. It just became $53.60. But there's more handling and such, so let's just raise everything on the site 10-15% make sure we cover it.

Of course, that's just an off-the-cuff scenario, but it's really pretty typical.

I've found that if you really _need_ the _____ before your next order, and tell them, they'll take care of it - but that's just my finding.

 

[AllCoExPat]

But I do expect things to change down the road, especially the small family feel here where Steve, Leaford, or others respond personally to many of our comments. There just isn't enough time in the day for most bigger companies to do that. And that's OK with me as long as the products, prices, and service remain reasonably solid.

You're right on target, Jeffree. As an early adopter of alot of technology it's hard for many of us who were "there at the inception" to accept that as an organization or product really gets its feet under it, the type of customer service we get will change. It's the difference between using a small hometown bank and having an account with Wells Fargo or Citibank. Both have customer service, but how it's delivered and managed are very, very different animals.

They're at a point where they need someone to run just operations and create the policy and procedure that goes into that. It's a painful hump, probably the most painful, especially when they bring that operations person on board. That person doesn't pack and ship. They don't do customer service. They don't handle incoming stock. They build and manage the team and processes that encompass all those things.)

Having worked on the Ops and Plans side of a very, very large organization I can tell you that filling this role is critical. It's Operations that drives the train and keeps the wheels turning for marketing/sales, customer service, shipping/receiving, and R&D to keep doing their jobs. It takes a special skill set to fill that position because he or she has to know how all those supporting elements should perform to fit into the "big picture" as well as having the foresight to see what challenges are coming over the horizon and determining how to hit them.

 

[Adrenalynn]

Absolutely agreed. It takes the right person with the right combination of skills and just a little hint of "I'm not your friend until after 5/7/9pm"

 

[AllCoExPat]

Absolutely agreed. It takes the right person with the right combination of skills and just a little hint of "I'm not your friend until after 5/7/9pm"

Ahhh, yes... and now I remember why I gave Ops up for a nice quiet job in policy development.

 

[Adrenalynn]

Yeah, then you don't have to worry about it 'cause everyone just hates you by default.