The importance of accuracy in a TC mod

[Fredman1]

I think we're losing our audience.

Nope the grand stand is full. Most of us just don't have enough knowledge to be of use. This is a very interesting thread and of importance to many, so we're very interested to see where its going, and what to learn from it.

 

[Rossum]

Placing a thermocouple inside the device has a chance of affecting the data being collected because the thermocouple has mass and will absorb some energy itself.

The mass of a thermocouple is negligible compared to the mass of a coil.

If it's reading a dry coil then it's not measuring a real world phenomenon. No one fires a dry coil in real life.

One of the major selling points of TC is that keeps coil temperatures under control even if your wick dries out and thereby prevents "dry hits" and scorched wicks. If a TC mod can't do that, it's not doing its job.

 

[ScottP]

I think we're losing our audience.

All I'm saying is that Busardo's testing indicates a problem but that since his test method is faulty, the data aren't good enough to reach the conclusion that it's not safe. The biggest problem I have isn't how the data were collected. It's that the dry coil data don't describe how it will be used by the average vaper. It's a problematic device that needs more scrutiny.

Remember the tests that anti-vaping Stan whatshisface did trying to prove vaping was harmful? He tested e-cigs in a way no vaper would ever actually do twice. He caught hell.

Thanks for posting the chart on the Evic. Joyetech, Eleaf, Wismec and a couple of others use the same chipset and all are Arctic Fox capable. I still don't trust the results--same faulty approach of using a dry coil.

I have watched a lot of his reviews, especially on TC mods specifically for the testing. He always vapes the device before the actual testing. There was another mod (I do not recall specifically which one) and while vaping it he was vaping it set to 450, he said it felt low and had to turn it up to 500 in order for it to feel like he was used to getting at a 450 setting on other devices (real world usage). When he hooked it up to the oscilloscope and tested it, sure enough it was reading right around 450 when set to 500. On this device he said it felt significantly hotter than what it was set to, and sure enough testing bore that out as well. I have seen this happen on numerous devices where the experience of vaping was corroborated in the testing. This tells me that while it may not be 100% exact, that the method is accurate enough to show which devices are safer to use and which ones are not.

I have no vested interest in getting people to watch PBusardo or DJLsb reviews, nor do I have any vested interest in getting people to buy any particular brand or device. If people choose to use a particular device without knowing how accurate it is, that is their choice. I just wanted to show people that just because a device does TC, does not mean that it does it well or accurately.

 

[Walee]

Both DJ and PB test with their probes inside the cotton. I also use this method. It is not completely accurate for numerous reasons from the heat dissipation in the cotton to having no idea of what kind of lag time is introduced by the probe itself. The probe itself is working on the principal of bi-metal tcr interpolation. Measuring the temperature of the coil wire itself offers its own set of logistic problems. That is as far as I wish to interject into this conversation. I am unwilling to get into discussion of efficacy. I think it important to understand these are reviewers and not thermal dynamic engineers.

 

[Beamslider]

The eVic Primo does not do well at TC whatever that chart says. DNA blows it away. One of the problems with the Primo judging on two that I have is that they don't read ohms very accurately

 

[stols001]

I think this thread... Well I'm not lost exactly, but I am leaving a trail of breadcrumbs that's for sure. The one thing I can say with complete certainty is that I'm glad I didn't keep my newest pico. Honestly, not shocked to hear it doesn't do TC well, it didn't do many things well in my experience. This was my first pico (the removable battery one) and I was not impressed. Maybe the older models were better, but I didn't find the way the power board converted to the battery to be at all efficient. It wasn't the type of mod I'd want to do TC on, let me put it this way.

With that said, it's interesting that Dburdo consistently couldn't tell whether his temp was "off" without measuring it.... Too hot or too cold, regardless. That makes me a bit worried about some of my non-DNA mods and temp control, but I vape at rather puny temperatures anyway.... Since I now will have a couple DNA mods, I will plan on using those with TC. If it isn't possible to 'sense" temp... Well, I've tried at various ramp ups and wattages, and I do seem to notice a difference. There are some other mods I trust with TC, like the steampunk, again with the caveat that my temps are on the low side. If it's a similar vape to wattage mode for me, sounds to me like I will be fine... Except for the fact that at least one reviewer, who I'd imagine has FAR more TC experience than I, can't tell the difference, well, that's a bit worrying.

Eh. DNA mods I guess although there has also been some conflicting information between reviews, so that again, is kind of interesting.

Anna

 

[ScottP]

I think this thread... Well I'm not lost exactly, but I am leaving a trail of breadcrumbs that's for sure. The one thing I can say with complete certainty is that I'm glad I didn't keep my newest pico. Honestly, not shocked to hear it doesn't do TC well, it didn't do many things well in my experience. This was my first pico (the removable battery one) and I was not impressed. Maybe the older models were better, but I didn't find the way the power board converted to the battery to be at all efficient. It wasn't the type of mod I'd want to do TC on, let me put it this way.

With that said, it's interesting that Dburdo consistently couldn't tell whether his temp was "off" without measuring it.... Too hot or too cold, regardless. That makes me a bit worried about some of my non-DNA mods and temp control, but I vape at rather puny temperatures anyway.... Since I now will have a couple DNA mods, I will plan on using those with TC. If it isn't possible to 'sense" temp... Well, I've tried at various ramp ups and wattages, and I do seem to notice a difference. There are some other mods I trust with TC, like the steampunk, again with the caveat that my temps are on the low side. If it's a similar vape to wattage mode for me, sounds to me like I will be fine... Except for the fact that at least one reviewer, who I'd imagine has FAR more TC experience than I, can't tell the difference, well, that's a bit worrying.

Eh. DNA mods I guess although there has also been some conflicting information between reviews, so that again, is kind of interesting.

Anna

It's not that he can't tell, like I said, he specifically said they felt one way or another. But a "feeling" isn't an objective measurable unit. That is why he also tests them.

 

[CMD-Ky]

It's not that he can't tell, like I said, he specifically said they felt one way or another. But a "feeling" isn't an objective measurable unit. That is why he also tests them.

I love the phrase, "a 'feeling' isn't an objective measurable unit". It fits so much of what passes for intellectual discourse.

 

[Walee]

so that again, is kind of interesting

Yes it is. It has it's value. Within the confines of this thread however I see a lot of conclusions being drawn that are, well, out there. This might be something Morten Oen could incorporate with his vapor chamber experiments. Temperatures of the wire, cotton, vaporized liquid, overall resultant gas as measured entering the mouth are very different indices and all have very different implications.

I agree, "kind of interesting".

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

I think this thread... Well I'm not lost exactly, but I am leaving a trail of breadcrumbs that's for sure. The one thing I can say with complete certainty is that I'm glad I didn't keep my newest pico. Honestly, not shocked to hear it doesn't do TC well, it didn't do many things well in my experience. This was my first pico (the removable battery one) and I was not impressed. Maybe the older models were better, but I didn't find the way the power board converted to the battery to be at all efficient. It wasn't the type of mod I'd want to do TC on, let me put it this way.

Well, you probably don't want to do TC on your Invoke either because that mod and the Picos use the same chip programmed with the same TC model.

The Picos do TC fine. Obviously not DNA fine but well enough to be safe. They do it even better when the firmware is upgraded to Arctic Fox (a challenge, but worth the effort). AF also addresses a minor bug in the TC logic that helps the device treat higher mass coils better.

The point @ScottP makes in his OP is a valid one--some devices do TC well, others not so much and it's important to know whether yours does.

 

[HauntedMyst]

You guys is smart. Me just happy to vape old way since me not understand thermodynamics beyond "ouch" Me go sit and scratch.

 

[Walee]

some devices do TC well, others not so much and it's important to know whether yours does

Good call. That is a reasonable scope for this thread.

 

[englishmick]

The Picos do TC fine. Obviously not DNA fine but well enough to be safe. They do it even better when the firmware is upgraded to Arctic Fox (a challenge, but worth the effort). AF also addresses a minor bug in the TC logic that helps the device treat higher mass coils better.

Well I was inspired by this to get TC going on a Pico.

Had one glitch with Arctic Fox. When I unpacked the compressed files Norton flagged 2 DLL files as dangerous and deleted them. HidSharp and NCore. As far as I could see that was based on the newness of the file, created a week ago, and the small number of Norton users, 5. Couldn't be bothered to dive in on that problem so I tried AF without them. It worked fine as far as loading the firmware and setting up a profile.

I used the same settings as I used on my Jac. It seems like exactly the same vape I was getting on the Jac.

One question. The profile setup screen in NFE only seems to work in Centigrade. Do you know if there's any way to tell it to use Fahrenheit, or do I just need to do the conversion myself?

 

[ScottP]

Well I was inspired by this to get TC going on a Pico.

Had one glitch with Arctic Fox. When I unpacked the compressed files Norton flagged 2 DLL files as dangerous and deleted them. HidSharp and NCore. As far as I could see that was based on the newness of the file, created a week ago, and the small number of Norton users, 5. Couldn't be bothered to dive in on that problem so I tried AF without them. It worked fine as far as loading the firmware and setting up a profile.

I used the same settings as I used on my Jac. It seems like exactly the same vape I was getting on the Jac.

One question. The profile setup screen in NFE only seems to work in Centigrade. Do you know if there's any way to tell it to use Fahrenheit, or do I just need to do the conversion myself?

Ahh Norton AV, the cure that is worse than the disease. I absolutely hate that AV, it always ended up tying up all of my CPU clock cycles, making it difficult to do what I wanted to do.

 

[mikepetro]

 

[ScottP]

Umm, the show is over. It ended last Thursday and you are just now showing up with the popcorn?

 

[englishmick]

Ahh Norton AV, the cure that is worse than the disease. I absolutely hate that AV, it always ended up tying up all of my CPU clock cycles, making it difficult to do what I wanted to do.

Norton is good for lazy people, been using Norton stuff since back when it came on a floppy disk. I think Norton did good for me this time. The DLL's it flagged appear to be part of some junkware called driversupport.exe. I must have had that dumped on me uninvited a few weeks ago, it was consistently sitting on 30% + of my CPU. I downloaded a security program called Security Task Manager which finally got rid of driversupport for me and I noticed those DLL's in the list of stuff it quarantined. Norton stopped me picking it up again. Driversupport must be a new one, not much on the internet about it.

Security Task Manager is worth a look IMO.

 

[mikepetro]

Umm, the show is over. It ended last Thursday and you are just now showing up with the popcorn?

I am just happy to see the topic of TC being discussed, reviewed, measured, and debated.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I am just happy to see the topic of TC being discussed, reviewed, measured, and debated.

I don't know enough to discuss, review, measure or debate but I know enough to recognize others that do. I have changed completely from a mechanical to TC using a JAC. I generally go from a lower limit of 370 F to an upper limit of 425 F depending on time of day. I am satisfied with this vape. Without the discussion that you started, Mr Petro, and the comments of many others I would have never have seen the wisdom of limiting temperature. Without the subtle guidance of @Bronze I doubt I would have had the understanding on how easy it was to set up.
So, have some popcorn on me with my thanks.