EU The Netherlands ratifyes TPD as first EU country

[Hattivatti]

The government of The Netherlands has published draft of their temporary law to regulate e-cigs. Search the database - European Commission (press EN to see the pdf)

The draft of the law follows the article 20 of the TPD and regulates only 1st gen devices and mentions nicotine limit to 20mg/ml, refill bottles up to 10ml size, constant dose, refillable atomizers are also limited to 2ml but disposables can hold up to 10ml! . Also requirements of (false claims) nicotine being highly addictive warning texts are mandatory.

This is the starting point how EU-member states will ratify the TPD into their own legislation.

Meanwhile euobserver has published series of articles how corrupt the whole TPD process was so you can read those from here: EUobserver / EU smoke & mirrors

 

[Norrin]

You have to laugh at the grounds

9. Brief Statement of Grounds
From research of the Netherlands Food and Consumer Product Safety Authority (NVWA) and the Netherlands National Institute for Public Health and the Environment (RIVM) it is apparent that among other things:
- with refill packages that contain large quantities of nicotine there is a possible risk of nicotine poisoning,
- during advertisements for e-cigarettes the positive properties of the product are especially emphasised while the negative aspects remain underexposed and
- on packages of e-cigarettes and refill packages important information about the nicotine strength, the correct use and the dangers of the e-cigarette is often missing.

Due to the conclusions from this research and the increasing use of the e-cigarette it has been decided to draft this decision and thereby, prior to implementation of Directive 2014/40/EU, draw up regulations in the area of e-cigarette safety and information to consumers about the e-cigarette. These regulations are necessary for the protection of public health. Furthermore the proposed regulations are proportionate because the sale and use of e-cigarettes are not made impossible.

Complete implementation of Directive 2014/40/EU will take place in the future. However, to achieve this an act must be formally amended. Drawing up new secondary legislation is therefore not sufficient. This temporary decision has been opted for in order to be able to draw up regulations in the near future with regard to consumer information and safety.

What I find most worrying about these sort of steps is it will encourage black market dealing of e-liquid (maybe this one isn't strict enough for that but going that way) which will lead to bad stuff being vaped. Why can't they see the benefits and try to actually look at the health of the people and not the revenue that they lose?

 

[Nate760]

The 20mg limit will effectively outlaw the products that give smokers the best chance of quitting, while not doing anything to keep anyone safer. It literally is just a number someone made up.

 

[Hattivatti]

That came from the EU parliament. The commission's initial limit was 4mg/ml.

 

[Nate760]

That came from the EU parliament. The commission's initial limit was 4mg/ml.

I know where it came from. The point is that it's a nonsense policy, with no evidentiary basis, that does absolutely nothing to keep anyone safer than they would otherwise have been.

 

[Ryedan]

The government of The Netherlands has published draft of their temporary law to regulate e-cigs. Search the database - European Commission (press EN to see the pdf)

The draft of the law follows the article 20 of the TPD and regulates only 1st gen devices and mentions nicotine limit to 20mg/ml, refill bottles up to 10ml size, constant dose, refillable atomizers are also limited to 2ml but disposables can hold up to 10ml! . Also requirements of (false claims) nicotine being highly addictive warning texts are mandatory.

This is the starting point how EU-member states will ratify the TPD into their own legislation.

Meanwhile euobserver has published series of articles how corrupt the whole TPD process was so you can read those from here: EUobserver / EU smoke & mirrors

I have a question. Does the bold above mean that only 1st gen devices are regulated and others are not regulated, or does it mean only 1st gen devices are regulated and all others are banned?

 

[jpargana]

I have a question. Does the bold above mean that only 1st gen devices are regulated and others are not regulated, or does it mean only 1st gen devices are regulated and all others are banned?

AFAIK, under the new TPD, 2nd and 3rd generation devices are to be banned. "Open systems are dangerous; will someone please think about the childreeeen", and so on.

Regulations on 1st generation devices seem to have been written to give their manufacture to BT, on a silver platter. No refillables, only closed atomizers, only tobacco/menthol flavours, electronic encryption (so that battery brand A will ONLY work with atomizer brand A)... everything to ensure that vapers will not be able to tinker with their setups anymore, and that the ONLY way to vape is to buy setups from "respectable"/controlled/"properly" TAXED companies - namely, companies affiliated with BT

What "they" seem to forget is that vaping technology is not NASA technology. Anyone with a little talent, and acess to metal working machines, can manufacture MOD's (that's the way the first of them appeared, anyway), and sell them under the table. There WILL be a demand.

Anyone can recoil using wire and cotton.

Anyone can stock up on nicotine base, and legally buy PG/VG and flavourings to make their own mix.

I believe their hope is that while anyone can do the above, most new vapers are not aware of that. Most new vapers are not even aware of this ECONOMICAL anti-e-cig war. And when the hammer strikes, those people will resort to "normalized" e-cigarettes - or, "better" yet, will resort to smoking.


Instead of researching the "underground" alternatives (MODS/DIY) that will STILL be there.

 

[Nate760]

AFAIK, under the new TPD, 2nd and 3rd generation devices are to be banned. "Open systems are dangerous; will someone please think about the childreeeen", and so on.

Regulations on 1st generation devices seem to have been written to give their manufacture to BT, on a silver platter. No refillables, only closed atomizers, only tobacco/menthol flavours, electronic encryption (so that battery brand A will ONLY work with atomizer brand A)... everything to ensure that vapers will not be able to tinker with their setups anymore, and that the ONLY way to vape is to buy setups from "respectable"/controlled/"properly" TAXED companies - namely, companies affiliated with BT

What "they" seem to forget is that vaping technology is not NASA technology. Anyone with a little talent, and acess to metal working machines, can manufacture MOD's (that's the way the first of them appeared, anyway), and sell them under the table. There WILL be a demand.

Anyone can recoil using wire and cotton.

Anyone can stock up on nicotine base, and legally buy PG/VG and flavourings to make their own mix.

I believe their hope is that while anyone can do the above, most new vapers are not aware of that. Most new vapers are not even aware of this ECONOMICAL anti-e-cig war. And when the hammer strikes, those people will resort to "normalized" e-cigarettes - or, "better" yet, will resort to smoking.


Instead of researching the "underground" alternatives (MODS/DIY) that will STILL be there.

The most insidious, most tyrannical laws are the ones that turn normal law-abiding citizens into criminals while producing no possible benefit to society.

 

[jpargana]

The most insidious, most tyrannical laws are the ones that turn normal law-abiding citizens into criminals while producing no possible benefit to society.

Nay-sayers are so worried about "product safety", that instead of calling for PROPER product regulations (which many manufacturers already use, anyway), they are calling for a de-facto ban on these products, disguised as "ultra-safe" regulations, applied to NONE of other consummer products .

After those products are actually banned, normal people, law-abiding citizens, family's mothers and fathers will resort to the black market, because there WILL be a demand.

Is the shady guy selling liquids and devices in his minivan near the nightclub responsible for what he's selling? Can he be held accountable if something goes wrong??

How can that be better than the general product regulations that what we already have today?


When normal folks, law-abiding citizens, honest people, they all start to defy some particular, ill-thought law, then I say it is time to get rid of that law!
Aren't exactly those kind of people who should "write" the laws, thru their elected representatives?

In a pink world, yes. Trouble is, a large number of those "representatives" are actually representing themselves, and their own not-so covered interests.

 

[Ryedan]

AFAIK, under the new TPD, 2nd and 3rd generation devices are to be banned. "Open systems are dangerous; will someone please think about the childreeeen", and so on.

Regulations on 1st generation devices seem to have been written to give their manufacture to BT, on a silver platter. No refillables, only closed atomizers, only tobacco/menthol flavours, electronic encryption (so that battery brand A will ONLY work with atomizer brand A)... everything to ensure that vapers will not be able to tinker with their setups anymore, and that the ONLY way to vape is to buy setups from "respectable"/controlled/"properly" TAXED companies - namely, companies affiliated with BT

What "they" seem to forget is that vaping technology is not NASA technology. Anyone with a little talent, and acess to metal working machines, can manufacture MOD's (that's the way the first of them appeared, anyway), and sell them under the table. There WILL be a demand.

Anyone can recoil using wire and cotton.

Anyone can stock up on nicotine base, and legally buy PG/VG and flavourings to make their own mix.

I believe their hope is that while anyone can do the above, most new vapers are not aware of that. Most new vapers are not even aware of this ECONOMICAL anti-e-cig war. And when the hammer strikes, those people will resort to "normalized" e-cigarettes - or, "better" yet, will resort to smoking.


Instead of researching the "underground" alternatives (MODS/DIY) that will STILL be there.

Thank you, I thought that was it. And it really sucks!

Yes, everyone who is comfortable with rebuildable attys, mechanical mods and can make their own juice will not have much of a problem as long as they can get nic if they need it. But the majority of current vapers are not in that group and it will make smokers who may have switched much less likely to do so.

I hope legal challenges happen and will help.

 

[Nate760]

Thank you, I thought that was it. And it really sucks!

Yes, everyone who is comfortable with rebuildable attys, mechanical mods and can make their own juice will not have much of a problem as long as they can get nic if they need it. But the majority of current vapers are not in that group and it will make smokers who may have switched much less likely to do so.

I hope legal challenges happen and will help.

It seems to me that if and when this policy is implemented, it will do a lot more than just banning all non-cigalike devices. With a 20mg nicotine limit also being in the statute, many of the most popular disposables and rechargeable cigalikes would also be banned.

 

[ykalon]

It seems to me that if and when this policy is implemented, it will do a lot more than just banning all non-cigalike devices. With a 20mg nicotine limit also being in the statute, many of the most popular disposables and rechargeable cigalikes would also be banned.

The mg limit is not the killing blow. The device itself must be able to deliver a nic dosage that is EXACTLY the same every single puff. No device can do that today....

 

[Nate760]

The mg limit is not the killing blow. The device itself must be able to deliver a nic dosage that is EXACTLY the same every single puff. No device can do that today....

Another case where they're trying to enforce standards for vapor products that do not exist, and have never existed, for tobacco cigarettes, and for which no evidence exists 1) that it's even within the realm of possibility to do so, or 2) whether any possible benefit would be gained if it were.

 

[QU1T]

Excluding the nicotine issue, how could ANY government ban hardware if it was for aromatic purposes?
Or some other wording used for these kinds of activities...

Herbs of a certain kind are illegal in many parts of EU, but you can still buy a tons of hardware for them including vaporizers,
Just seems like it will boil down to a word game...again.

Eliquids with out nic, grey area?

Or am I missing something?

 

[Nate760]

Excluding the nicotine issue, how could ANY government ban hardware if it was for aromatic purposes?
Or some other wording used for these kinds of activities...

There are certain truths that transcend all eras and national boundaries. One of them is this: when idiot politicians are legislating in response to a contrived moral panic, they don't waste a single moment considering the actual practical ramifications of the legislation they're writing.

 

[Danie06]

AFAIK, under the new TPD, 2nd and 3rd generation devices are to be banned. "Open systems are dangerous; will someone please think about the childreeeen", and so on.

Regulations on 1st generation devices seem to have been written to give their manufacture to BT, on a silver platter. No refillables, only closed atomizers, only tobacco/menthol flavours, electronic encryption (so that battery brand A will ONLY work with atomizer brand A)... everything to ensure that vapers will not be able to tinker with their setups anymore, and that the ONLY way to vape is to buy setups from "respectable"/controlled/"properly" TAXED companies - namely, companies affiliated with BT

Even though I despise the TPD with a passion, this isnt exactly what is in it.
Basically they had no idea how to regulate e-cigs so they have made only restrictions on size.
The clearo cannot be larger than 2 ml, the bottles of e-liquid arent allowed to contain more than 20 mg nicotine and the bottle itself isnt allowed to be bigger than 10 ml.
There are however no restrictions on flavours or anything else.

Basically as long as your clearo is under the 2ml limit you can vape on, but if youre using bigger clearo's/ rbas etc etc youre screwed. If you make your own liquids youre screwed too.

 

[Danie06]

Excluding the nicotine issue, how could ANY government ban hardware if it was for aromatic purposes?
Or some other wording used for these kinds of activities...

Herbs of a certain kind are illegal in many parts of EU, but you can still buy a tons of hardware for them including vaporizers,
Just seems like it will boil down to a word game...again.

Eliquids with out nic, grey area?

Or am I missing something?

No you're not missing anything, the TPD is illogical, stupid and made by people who have 0 understanding of all aspects of vaping.
Lets keep the children safe and have the clearo be only 2ml in size, yeah that'll do the trick...
They dont even understand some people vape without nic or that banning clearo's over 2 ml doesnt serve any purpose.

 

[jpargana]

Another case where they're trying to enforce standards for vapor products that do not exist, and have never existed, for tobacco cigarettes, and for which no evidence exists 1) that it's even within the realm of possibility to do so, or 2) whether any possible benefit would be gained if it were.

Talk about double standards...! I call it B.S.; a bad excuse to kill the e-cig industry and save the cash flow.


Does a cigarette deliver EXACTLY the same amout of nicotine (and carcinogens...) on EVERY puff?

Does an expresso machine deliver EXACTLY the same caffeine amout on each and EVERY cup of coffe?


Of course not. Is it an "health concern" ? Nope. And we do not see cigarettes and coffe being, for all practical purposes, banned.


With the e-cig, "health concerns" arise, demanding that a consumer product should be treated as a medical device

 

[Nate760]

Does a cigarette deliver EXACTLY the same amout of nicotine (and carcinogens...) on EVERY puff?

Does an expresso machine deliver EXACTLY the same caffeine amout on each and EVERY cup of coffe?

Does a piece of Nicorette deliver exactly the same dose of nicotine with every chew? No.

Does a Nicoderm patch always release nicotine at exactly the same rate? No.

Does a nicotine lozenge always take exactly the same amount of time to dissolve? No.

Has anyone, anywhere, ever suggested that these products are dangerous because of it? No.

 

[James Sellars]

4mg I would have to drink it instead to get the same effect