The Nicotine Discrepancy

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kinabaloo

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Some musings on the lower than expected transfer of nicotine from e-liquid to bloodstream in comparison to smoking.

While a few do claim to be able to get a similar hit with an e-cig, for many this is not the case; something approaching the same effect only being possible by upping the nic strength beyond what the maths would suggest as equivalent.

~~~

A typical cigarette gives about 1mg nic. This is the absorbed amount determined from testing, not what's in the cigarette.

A typical juice is 20mg/ml with 1ml equivalent to about 10 cigs, perhaps a little less. So potentially 2mg per cig equivalent.

Typical inhale hold would be about 50% exhaled (if hold the vapor for 10 seconds or longer one can retain most of the vapor). So we are about on par now - about 1mg expected to be absorbed.

But the tests show much lower figures, as low as 10%, although we have assumed that the e-cig and e-liquid combination should be an almost perfect delivery mechanism.

So how can this be explained?

~~~

Because the nic in vapor comes dissolved in the base liquid (VG / PG) this will significantly slow down absorption; perhaps the tests didn't sufficiently take this into account. Could be part of the answer, but probably not the whole account.

Perhaps the reasoning that the nic in e-liquid is in an easily absorbable freebase form is not correct. I think unlikely, but possible. Furthermore, amalog smoke only has a freebase content in the 10% - 60% range. So if this part of the answer, the nature of the binding would be very significant; for example, perhaps glycols bind to the active group rendering the nic almost inactive.

Perhaps a fair proportion of the nic gets destroyed in the atomiser due to the fast heat up and nicotine's relatively poor heat stability (it might be a major contributor to heater coil deposit build up). Just my hypothesis at the moment; 50/50 if this really occurs; would be quite a startling discovery if found to be the case.

I can imagine that in the comparative tests that the volunteers did not inhale as deeply with the e-cig as with analogs. However, even allowing for a number of such possibilities bringing the numbers closer, there remains a sizable difference yet to be both adequately explained and proven. It's quite a fascinating area of investigation, and one that might, if that understanding could translate to practical steps to improve the efficiency of the e-cig delivery system, mark a significant step forward.

edit: I am aware that an overlapping issue surrounding the for some people less than equivalent satisfaction may well involve addition co-factors found in analogs, such as MAOIs. Yet distinct from that there is a nic discrepancy that is independent.
 
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DVap

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As far as the buildup on atomizers, I've been vaping just PG/VG/Nicotine for awhile for a very clean ultra-light taste, and I'm not seeing any significant buildup on the atomizer.

I'm thinking if the liquid were made hot enough by the atomizer to decompose nicotine, then glycerin breakdown to acrolein would be happening as well. That would be a hard to miss taste. It looks like I'm going to have to come up with an auto-vaping test after all.

The looming question seems to be, "If we vape 1 mL of 24 mg liquid, have we vaped 24 mg of nicotine?". Only by first discovering the answer to that question, can we safely proceed to the next set of questions.
 

kinabaloo

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As far as the buildup on atomizers, I've been vaping just PG/VG/Nicotine for awhile for a very clean ultra-light taste, and I'm not seeing any significant buildup on the atomizer.

I'm thinking if the liquid were made hot enough by the atomizer to decompose nicotine, then glycerin breakdown to acrolein would be happening as well. That would be a hard to miss taste. It looks like I'm going to have to come up with an auto-vaping test after all.

The looming question seems to be, "If we vape 1 mL of 24 mg liquid, have we vaped 24 mg of nicotine?". Only by first discovering the answer to that question, can we safely proceed to the next set of questions.

It would be good news if a small fraction of VG, perhaps when with PG, does not decompose to a significant degree. What % VG would you say you've been using, and for roughly how long?

I'm imagining that nic would react/oxidise/combust rather than decompose; if anything.
 

DVap

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Probably 25% VG.. five weeks in the same atomizer, several mL's per day. I give it a water rinse now and then, with some isopropyl alcohol to dry it out. Other than that, maintenance-free. My fiancee uses a Dekang flavored mix, and the vapor output on her atomizer has become poor with the same maintenance as my atomizer. I'm going to have to hit it with some solvents and an ultrasonic bath to get it behaving again.
 

kinabaloo

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Probably 25% VG.. five weeks in the same atomizer, several mL's per day. I give it a water rinse now and then, with some isopropyl alcohol to dry it out. Other than that, maintenance-free. My fiancee uses a Dekang flavored mix, and the vapor output on her atomizer has become poor with the same maintenance as my atomizer. I'm going to have to hit it with some solvents and an ultrasonic bath to get it behaving again.

Interesting result. That's quite a substantial throughput.

If no luck with baths, consider the 'dry burn'.
 

Oliver

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I'm not convinced by this. From memory a far more plausible reason for the addictive nature of nicotine in tobacco is due to a "coupling" effect between nicotine and other chemicals present in tobacco smoke.

The "hit" sensation from smoking a cigarette is likely either to be due to carbon monoxide (asphyxiation) or the effect of some of the other chemicals in the smoke (some of which are potent monoamine oxidase inhibitors - ie, old school antidepressants) - or both.
 

kinabaloo

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I'm not convinced by this. From memory a far more plausible reason for the addictive nature of nicotine in tobacco is due to a "coupling" effect between nicotine and other chemicals present in tobacco smoke.

The "hit" sensation from smoking a cigarette is likely either to be due to carbon monoxide (asphyxiation) or the effect of some of the other chemicals in the smoke (some of which are potent monoamine oxidase inhibitors - ie, old school antidepressants) - or both.

That may well all be true.

But nevertheless there is a discrepancy between expected levels of nicotine and measured blood levels.

I'm not trying to account for the reduced 'buzz' as such, just the lower than expected nic level. It must be going somewhere; question is: where? That is, what happens to it?
 

kinabaloo

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I wonder if our bodies just process and get rid of it more effectively without all of the additional stuff in cigs that we're no longer taking in.

The vast majority will go first to the bloddstream. I don't see a way that any cofactors in smoke could assist in it staying in the bloodstream longer; but I guess it's possible. If it was a matter of more effective at reachng the brain it would lower blood levels if anything; but that would surly be a minor effect (?)
 

Kurt

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It would be good news if a small fraction of VG, perhaps when with PG, does not decompose to a significant degree. What % VG would you say you've been using, and for roughly how long?

I'm imagining that nic would react/oxidise/combust rather than decompose; if anything.

VG decomposition to acrolein at atty temps has been analyzed by Cignot with their ECOpure juice, and there was no acrolein at all at 300 C. Good news, but given that acrolein is a strong lacramator (mucus membrane irritant), you would certainly know if you were vaping it. Even ng quantities would have a major effect. I myself am quite relieved by this since I much prefer VG over PG.

Of course, I don't know if there is more of a chance of forming it with higher voltage, and thus hotter attys.

Kurt
 

a2dcovert

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The "hit" sensation from smoking a cigarette is likely either to be due to carbon monoxide (asphyxiation) or the effect of some of the other chemicals in the smoke (some of which are potent monoamine oxidase inhibitors - ie, old school antidepressants) - or both.

Is it possible that this is why some smokers especially myself experience what I describe as a "chemical imbalance" when I quit smoking cigarettes? It is becomming clear to me that the e-cig nicotine delivery is somehow not satisfying all of my needs. I quit smoking 6 months ago and I still get very strong cravings and symptoms of a chemical imbalance, ie mood swings and a high potential for losing my cool.

Kevin
 

Scottes

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I wonder if our bodies just process and get rid of it more effectively without all of the additional stuff in cigs that we're no longer taking in.
Then the "hit" would be different for someone who used organic tobacco, which wouldn't have all of that additional stuff.

Can any ex-organic-analog smoker comment on the difference between those analogs and vaping?
 

DVap

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Then the "hit" would be different for someone who used organic tobacco, which wouldn't have all of that additional stuff.

Can any ex-organic-analog smoker comment on the difference between those analogs and vaping?

I don't believe our bodies process nicotine any differently once absorbed due to the tobacco... unless something is modifying the uptake/elimination.

Organic tobacco still has it's 4000 (oft quoted) combustion products, additive laden tobacco would have roughly the same 4000 combustion products plus a number of bonus combustion products.
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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I don't believe our bodies process nicotine any differently once absorbed due to the tobacco... unless something is modifying the uptake/elimination.

This subject also interests me. I currently vape approx. 42mg/ml. At this level I'm basically vaping the way I smoked, thus, 4-5 drops holds me for 30-45 min, then drip again. So, I've been able to reproduce the same pattern, but, with higher content nic. My question is why so much?
 

ShinKun

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I used to smoke American Spirit Light Organics, the orange box, and find that the hit isn't there. Something is missing.

I've been using 20mg ECOpure for the most part. I was down to 10 analogs a day for the last 10 years or so and find that I am vaping to about 6-7 times a day with a couple here and theres for good measure.

A little over a month now and that "something missing" is easier to deal with.

Then the "hit" would be different for someone who used organic tobacco, which wouldn't have all of that additional stuff.

Can any ex-organic-analog smoker comment on the difference between those analogs and vaping?
 

Nestran

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The nicotine may very well be getting into the blood just like an analog. the difference is that vaping does not have the chemicals that are used in analogs to speed the blood/brain barrier process.

We are metabolizing more nicotine in the blood than a smoker because it takes longer for it to get from the blood to the brain receptors, which is where we need it to be satisfied.

This is supported by the delayed satisfaction from vaping.

Just my couple pennies, spend them as you wish.

Nestran
 

steven.rn

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The nicotine may very well be getting into the blood just like an analog. the difference is that vaping does not have the chemicals that are used in analogs to speed the blood/brain barrier process.

We are metabolizing more nicotine in the blood than a smoker because it takes longer for it to get from the blood to the brain receptors, which is where we need it to be satisfied.

This is supported by the delayed satisfaction from vaping.

Just my couple pennies, spend them as you wish.

Nestran

That might make sense if we were measuring nicotine crossing the blood/brain barrier, but you just measure it with a blood draw from an extremity. It's lower in the entire body's circulation, from what I've gathered, as Kinabaloo was originally pointing out. It's more like it doesn't cross the lung/blood threshold, and get into circulation, or there just isn't as much nicotine in the vapor itself as we might think there would be.
 

TropicalBob

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It is becoming clear to me that the e-cig nicotine delivery is somehow not satisfying all of my needs. I quit smoking 6 months ago and I still get very strong cravings and symptoms of a chemical imbalance, ie mood swings and a high potential for losing my cool.

Just to say I am the same. Totally agree with your statements here. I get cravings multiple times a day, while using the e-cigs, snus, dissolvables, Oliver Twist and about three pipes.

Replacing cigarettes after 30 a day for 50 years is not easy. It's more than hitting a specified nicotine blood level.
 

Nestran

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That might make sense if we were measuring nicotine crossing the blood/brain barrier, but you just measure it with a blood draw from an extremity. It's lower in the entire body's circulation, from what I've gathered, as Kinabaloo was originally pointing out. It's more like it doesn't cross the lung/blood threshold, and get into circulation, or there just isn't as much nicotine in the vapor itself as we might think there would be.

Good point. I imagine it is the same situation though. there are chems in analogs to get everything where it needs to go faster. I remember reading something about pH modifiers which would change the rate of lung absorption.

Nestran
 

them0nk

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This is an Awesome topic. Where is a doctor with a lab at his disposal when we need one... (year right...)... but i agree with everything i've seen... i DO get those cravings but on the other hand i know if i vap 36mg juice for a little while before bed... i'm WIRED and can't sleep. which doesn't happen to me with 18-24mg juice, i tried like a 5mg mix for before bed and that just didn't work at all, found my self dumping 24mg juice in to get the fix i needed before bed.

But through out the day i've been getting more and more urges now because i'm only on my 2nd week of quitting analogs. The one thing that helps is i work for with my family at a property management company and i'm able to puff all day in my office... so every once in a while i take a puff or two then set it down... i even attend the Smoke Breaks outside with my protege and i'm fine then... it's just weird off moments (SPECIALLY WHEN DRINKING) that i want a cigarette and reach for my 24mg juice and puff puff puff that urge till it's gone lol...
 
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