The other 80%

[stevegmu]

My doctor said nicotine raises one's blood pressure and increases the chance of a heart attack. He wasn't correct?

 

[shakeytails]

My doctor said nicotine raises one's blood pressure and increases the chance of a heart attack. He wasn't correct?

So does caffeine. And stress, and all kinds of other stuff...

 

[Robino1]

My doctor said nicotine raises one's blood pressure and increases the chance of a heart attack. He wasn't correct?

Not entirely. Some people are more sensitive and their bodies process nic differently. Just as with anything else, it depends on the individual.

Did your doctor say 'nicotine' directly? Or did he say 'smoking' or tobacco?

I've had a doctor lie to me just to get me to give up smoking. Yes, outright lie. I know this because when I was in my 20's, I had one tell me that there was a dark spot on my lung. The beginning of emphysema. I never mentioned that to other doctors I've had through the years and many chest X-rays. Not one, since that one quack, has ever said anything. I'm 53 now. No lung problems since switching to vaping and this year I didn't get my annual bout with bronchitis.

I don't fully trust doctors, needless to say.

 

[bikerbeagle]

We've heard this argument before with regard to drugs and it is really not completely true. Just because a teen experiments with them does not mean it will be a gateway to harder drugs. Doesn't mean they'll become junkies and such.

You are thinking from the wrong side of the gate, so to speak. I don't know what the statistics are for teens and young adults who "experiment" with smoking and who go on to become 'junkies and such' - it may, in fact, not be very high ...but the statistics are fairly well documented that the vast majority of teens and young adults who are 'junkies and such' started out as smokers.

 

[Barbara21]

I don't think I know anyone who started smoking as an adult.

I started smoking when I was 24. (Yeah, I know - should of known better.)

 

[BlueMoods]

I have 4 vaping friends who never smoked - they saw me with my PV, I talked about all the flavors, which they thought sounded fun and good, then I informed them they could have the flavors with no nicotine. I let them try one of my 0 nic mixes and, each one got an Ego their next pay day and, 0 nic juice LOL.

Seems it's good for dieters too - vape your chocolate, popcorn, candy, whatever (at 0 nic of course) and, voila, satisfy the taste craving for 0 calories, 0 fat.

 

[stevegmu]

Not entirely. Some people are more sensitive and their bodies process nic differently. Just as with anything else, it depends on the individual.

Did your doctor say 'nicotine' directly? Or did he say 'smoking' or tobacco?

I've had a doctor lie to me just to get me to give up smoking. Yes, outright lie. I know this because when I was in my 20's, I had one tell me that there was a dark spot on my lung. The beginning of emphysema. I never mentioned that to other doctors I've had through the years and many chest X-rays. Not one, since that one quack, has ever said anything. I'm 53 now. No lung problems since switching to vaping and this year I didn't get my annual bout with bronchitis.

I don't fully trust doctors, needless to say.

No, he said nicotine. He thought it was great I quit smoking, but said I should set a schedule for reducing the nic levels down to eventually 0- even if it takes a year.
I trust my doctor.

 

[stevegmu]

So does caffeine. And stress, and all kinds of other stuff...

Yes, and those things aren't harmless, either.

 

[soba1]

I don't think zero nic is a good option at this point in time. Since our stuff is targeted at ADULTS, we don't need antz saying that we're targeting the kiddos with fruit flavors and such.

I agree.........................................

 

[Arnie H]

Zero-nic disposables are a good idea, in theory, but things aren't always as simple as they look.

Vendors will tell you that zero-nic disposables are about the worst-selling item they ever stocked, and sit on the shelf for years till they are binned. They'll never stock them again after that.

Nicotine: there is a valid argument that about 20% of the population need to supplement their dietary nicotine in order to function at 100%. If this is the case, then perhaps a better solution might be to find ways to provide that supplementation without the health risks of smoking. For ex-smokers, vaping seems a reasonable way to do that, though perhaps for never-smokers a different method might be better, such as nutritional supplement pills. There has been very little research on this area because of the taboo surrounding nicotine, but it is a worthwhile area of research for public health once the ideology is left behind - because if people can obtain nicotine, if they need it, without ever starting to smoke, then that is a massive win as nicotine is essentially harmless under those circumstances - for example it is not associated with cancer or heart disease. Some people need high-dose supplementation of nicotinic acid (vitamin B3), a similar compound, some of whose effects are identical; they might be the same people who need nicotine (and vice-versa).

Currently there is no evidence that nicotine is dependence-creating ('addictive'), when consumed pure and in low strengths compared to smoking, as there is no published clinical trial of the effects of nicotine administered to humans who are never-smokers. There is probably more support for the opposite case (though anecdotal), that it is not dependence-forming in and of itself, because there may have been cases where nicotine has been supplied to subjects who were never-smokers and no potential for dependence was observed; but since this was not done within a clinical trial it cannot be regarded as evidence. Because of this (and other reasons) people like Prof Killeen say that nicotine is not addictive, the dependence is caused by interaction with the MAOIs (or, the freebasing / synergens / assorted additives / pyrolytic compounds) in cigarette smoke.

For example any statement such as "nicotine is fiercely addictive", or "nicotine is more addictive than H or coke" (both seen recently) are simply wrong. Smoking may be (and nicotine dependence after smoking may be) but that is a different matter. It is presumed that some sort of chemical change occurs in the brain after smoking.

So although there is huge resistance to the concept that nicotine is a virtually harmless dietary ingredient, that is a more accurate statement than others that describe it as addictive or harmful. Keep in mind that many dietary ingredients are toxic/fatal in high quantity, and some can also be dependence-creating (like vitamin A or its precursors). Of course I'm not trying to promote nic, just adding some perspective: basically it's not something to worry about except when delivered in cigarette smoke.

I think you make very intelligent and valid points. Of course I am no doctor, or expert, or medical researcher, but I think we can both agree that nicotine in the amounts present in traditional tobacco cigarettes and via that delivery method is indeed addictive.

Nicotine imitates the action of a natural neurotransmitter called acetylcholine and binds to a particular type of acetylcholine receptor, known as the nicotinic receptor.

Whether it is acetylcholine or nicotine that binds to this receptor, it responds in the same way: it changes its conformation, which causes its associated ion channel to open for a few milliseconds. This channel then allows sodium ions to enter the neuron, depolarizing the membrane and exciting the cell. Then the channel closes again, and the nicotinic receptor becomes temporarily unresponsive to any neurotransmitters. It is this state of desensitization that is artificially prolonged by continual exposure to nicotine.

Tobacco dependency, which then develops very quickly, arises because nicotinic receptors are present on the neurons of the ventral tegmental area which project their terminations into the nucleus accumbens. In smokers,repeated nicotine stimulation thus increases the amount of dopamine released in the nucleus accumbens. Between cigarettes, however, chronic smokers maintain a high enough concentration of nicotine to deactivate the receptors and slow down their recovery. This is why smokers develop a tolerance to nicotine and experience reduced pleasure from it.

Medscape: Medscape Access

 

[Arnie H]

I have 4 vaping friends who never smoked - they saw me with my PV, I talked about all the flavors, which they thought sounded fun and good, then I informed them they could have the flavors with no nicotine. I let them try one of my 0 nic mixes and, each one got an Ego their next pay day and, 0 nic juice LOL.

Seems it's good for dieters too - vape your chocolate, popcorn, candy, whatever (at 0 nic of course) and, voila, satisfy the taste craving for 0 calories, 0 fat.

This is good info to know. I have found that with the zero nic juices that I have tried, the flavor is much more pronounced. Even vapers would benefit from higher quality disposables and more flavor options and nicotine choices that are more readily available. I personally keep a disposable for emergency purposes. But what if a 6 mg nic vaper (who has sucessfully reduced his nicotine intake) runs out of juice, and runs to the nearest gas station, what are his/her options likely to be?

Knowing that teens can and will get there hands on whatever they desire, a lot of it right over the Internet, personally I would rather see teens (and I am not advocating it), vaping a 100% nicotine free juice and thinking it is cool and all that, then to have them sneak out with their friends and smoke regular cigarettes. Which has been the norm and which I think is something we need to change.

So letting the Cigarette companies "Hook'em" and then hoping that vapers and the e-cig industry can then save them, is not an acceptable solution to me. The idea that someone might suggest that this system is "working just fine" really is repugnant to me.

 

[rolygate]

My doctor said nicotine raises one's blood pressure and increases the chance of a heart attack. He wasn't correct?

Yes, he is correct - but this is very much like saying "E-cigarettes contain carcinogens". Almost all probably do, as it is impossible to remove all traces of carcinogens from pharmaceutical nicotine, at least without putting the price up by 100 times, and there is no point anyway because the level is exactly the same as in NRTs, and is about a million times lower than possibly deleterious to health (according to Prof. Rodu). In other words, to state this as fact is not a lie at all (unless it is being specifically utilised to distort perception of an issue) - but you need to know the whole story. The same is true of nicotine's effects.

Just about anything and everything can raise your blood pressure, from thinking about dumb politicians to running up a short flight of stairs. No one has suggested that a little running is bad for your health. It may be if you are at serious risk of stroke or have heart disease, are on medication, and your doctor has advised you to take especial care.

Raising the blood pressure and/or reducing the arterial blood supply to the heart may increase risk of heart attack for those with heart disease. You will be on medication and your doctor will have advised you to take care. You might have nitro glycerine pills to place under your tongue, for example.

Those in normal health have nothing to fear from dietary supplements in reasonable amounts. Abuse is another matter.

Nicotine is regarded as GRAS / acceptably safe by national clinical guidance organisations. In the UK, doctors are advised to get smokers on to long-term nicotine therapy of some kind (and this includes e-cigarettes, although they are not allowed to prescribe them - see NICE PH45) rather than keep smoking. They are also allowed to prescribe dual treatments, and are specifically advised that overdose is not problematic because the user self-titrates and easily recognises signs of over-consumption, and nicotine is eliminated from the body quickly enough that harm from poisoning is not an issue.

However, since they allow varenicline to be prescribed, which has killed hundreds, caused hundreds of thousands of cardiac events and ruined tens of thousands of lives, and is many thousands of times more dangerous than e-cigarettes with nicotine, they are clearly either not exactly omniscient or are extremely vulnerable to commercial pressure - so perhaps caution should be advised, notwithstanding.

 

[Stubby]

As for nicotine and blood pressure and heart attacks it may have to be looked at a bit differently. Nicotine does temporarily raise blood pressure but is not the cause of heart attacks. Nicotine (and smokeless tobacco) do not cause hardening of the arteries, though smoking does. There is a big difference between the two. It is a lie to say that nicotine raises blood pressure (temporarily) therefore causes heart attacks. Smoking also temporarily raises blood pressure but also causes hardening of the arteries but by a different mechanism then nicotine.

As for the other 80% a good place to look is Sweden. Sweden has the lowest smoking rate in the western world, but overall tobacco use is at least on par with anywhere else. They simply use tobacco in the low risk form of snus. There is nothing wrong with the recreational use of nicotine. Many people get a noticeable benefit just as many get a benefit from caffeine. It is not going to go away even if smoking cigarettes do.

 

[unquiet]

and looking around when im out i think its waaay more then 20%

The 20-ish % number is across the whole population of U.S. adults. Break it down by geographic location and various other demographics and there are significant differences.

 

[Stubby]

The 20-ish % number is across the whole population of U.S. adults. Break it down by geographic location and various other demographics and there are significant differences.

The 20% is for cigarette users. That number doesn't include all the other forms of tobacco/nicotine use as in smokeless tobacco, cigars, pipes. It could well be 30% or better when all the numbers get added up.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Hook the non-smoker on a PV .. ?? Why .. ?? So they can graduate to analogs .. ?? The intent of the PV has always been a safer alternative to analogs for the smoker that nothing else has worked .. and it should stay that way ..

Nicotine is why most of us that have moved to the PV use the device .. we are still addicts whether we like to admit it or not .. although there is a faction that uses zero nic, they are in the minority ..

 

[Kweb]

Hook the non-smoker on a PV .. ?? Why .. ?? So they can graduate to analogs .. ?? The intent of the PV has always been a safer alternative to analogs for the smoker that nothing else has worked .. and it should stay that way ..

Nicotine is why most of us that have moved to the PV use the device .. we are still addicts whether we like to admit it or not .. although there is a faction that uses zero nic, they are in the minority ..

The bigger picture (sad but true) is that if more people vaped, it would be much more difficult for the powers that be to mess with us.

 

[fourtytwo]

The bigger picture (sad but true) is that if more people vaped, it would be much more difficult for the powers that be to mess with us.

And any ad seen to be marketing to young people, under age in particular, is another nail in the coffin for vaping.

 

[2coils]

Hook the non-smoker on a PV .. ?? Why .. ?? So they can graduate to analogs .. ?? The intent of the PV has always been a safer alternative to analogs for the smoker that nothing else has worked .. and it should stay that way ..

Nicotine is why most of us that have moved to the PV use the device .. we are still addicts whether we like to admit it or not .. although there is a faction that uses zero nic, they are in the minority ..

Completely agree!! E-cigs are a reduced harm alternative for smokers, i'd even say, former smokers that are on the verge of relapse. They should stay that way. I would not advocate or encourage ANY non-smoker inhale anything other than air! And lets not forget we can't get the general public or the "nanny run governments" to accept e-cigs for their intended use at this point. If a non smoker is looking for a hobby, they should look elsewhere. If there were to be 0 nic disposables for e-cig users, they should be marketed and sold as such alongside those that have nicotine! Lets not try to glamorize things!!!

 

[Arnie H]

I would not advocate or encourage ANY non-smoker inhale anything other than air! If a non smoker is looking for a hobby, they should look elsewhere.

I agree with ya. I would not recommend vaping to a non-smoker. And I say this because we do knot know for certain the long term effects of vaping on health. There is simply not enough long term data yet.

But, if a non-smoker has their heart set on taking up smoking and this person approaches me and asks whether they should vape or smoke, and I see that this person really and truly may start smoking if someone doesn't talk to him, I would definitely suggest/plead with them to try vaping, if they feel they MUST do one or the other. Tis the lesser of two evils in my opinion.

And of course if adults want to take up vaping up as trendy, or a hobby, or for pure enjoyment, and they are aware of the risks, that is their decision to make. The same way they may choose to drink or do anything else. I support their right as adults of legal age to do whatever they want to do. Particularly if it is legal.