The problem with electronic cigarettes...

[brickfollett]

Sorry dude, I'm not sure anyone really understands quite what your getting at. My pv's satisfy me just fine, and albeit minor quirks (leaking, battery trouble) about 99% of our community is perfectly satisfied with theirs as well, not taking into account the need to upgrade to bigger, better, more powerful devices. Honestly it all just boils down to: are we getting the satisfaction we crave? I would answer yes, yes we are. And if we aren't, there are devices out there that can satisfy us, and I don't think any of these devices include this cutoff system you describe

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[brickfollett]

Puff limiter or puff counter? I'm not talking about a limiting the toke time like someone else mentioned above.

The point is to have a signal for the start and end of smoking, something like 50 vapes then a button to click several times to re activate it would work just as well.

I'll do without the light show. Just sounds like a puff counter that would become annoying very quickly, and would often be ignored. Just because the device signals the end of your session, doesn't mean the user is going to react appropriately to it

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[Racehorse]

From my observation it's that ppl expect too much from vaping. It's not as easy as analogs. When they come to me their juice is black and thick like tar. It doesn't taste like it did 2 weeks ago. It's just easier to smoke.
I maintain 3 other vapers equipment besides me and the Mrs. Give advice to maybe 6 or 7 more. They are having no problem staying off smokes.
So is the problem the ritual or the learning curve?

If you can make it as easy as a pack of lights... you'll be a billionaire!

I think a lot of it is psychological, the habit of smoking that is.

But in a way I sometimes think that just making things easier and encourging people to just "buy something else more" is starting to approximate the "I just want to take a Pill" that is so prevalent in the health care industry?

There has to be a certain amount of self-awareness, discipline, desire to reach goal and plan for that, etc.

One of the interesting things that made me think about this is that I had allen carr's very famous book up in the classies, The easy Way to Quit Smoking. I only asked for $5.

This book has sold billions........because it's so good. It's even good for losing weight, etc. It helps you get your mind in teh right place and examine some of your thoughts about stuff.

well, there were no takers. Almost 500 views.

If it had been $5 worth of coils it would have sold in first 5 minutes.

Nobody wants to do the work. The book was given to a friend who is vaping but struggling to put down the cigs. I read at least 20 of those sort of posts per day here, over 2 years now, yet nobody wanted the book.\

What do you make of that?

Vaping is great, and yes, it is harder. But if everything is supposed to be easy then there is no human endeavor left in the equation is there? I mean, just surviving everyday, cooking, working, shopping, requires quite a deal of effort and time.

There IS a reason why all successful professional and olympic athletes use sports psychologists. Its to keep their mind in shape, because the body only does 1/2 the work in any endeavor, and everyone knows that.

I guess I am still curious why nobody wanted the book in spite of fact that I read nothing but posts about people vaping but still not being able to put down the cigs. And the answer is always to "buy something".

I know people have shopping addictions trying to "fill up" some other need, so I just don't ascribe to the buy something because it is really just an extension of the "take a pill" philosophy. I really believe you have to involve yourself and look within, figure out stuff sometimes, try to SOLVE the problem from where it originates----

 

[AveryW]

Puff limiter or puff counter? I'm not talking about a limiting the toke time like someone else mentioned above.

The point is to have a signal for the start and end of smoking, something like 50 vapes then a button to click several times to re activate it would work just as well.

A puff limiter limits the amount and/or the time of the puffs. A puff counter simply counts your puffs.
The OP says to have an e-cig where the amount of puffs are limited and there are LED lights to give a visual. I'm not trying to jump down your throat, im just saying this thread isn't making since. You're suggesting an ecig with a new style of puff limiter, but then you're saying puff limiters are stupid and that you never said anything about limiting of one's puffs. If you want good feedback from people you have to keep your story straight.

Sent from the mothership.

 

[brickfollett]

I think this thread is just a home for a rather senseless argument by now about something that doesn't exist and doesn't need to exist. Moving on...

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[olie]

A puff limiter limits the amount and/or the time of the puffs. A puff counter simply counts your puffs.
The OP says to have an e-cig where the amount of puffs are limited and there are LED lights to give a visual. I'm not trying to jump down your throat, im just saying this thread isn't making since. You're suggesting an ecig with a new style of puff limiter, but then you're saying puff limiters are stupid and that you never said anything about limiting of one's puffs. If you want good feedback from people you have to keep your story straight.

Sent from the mothership.

Not the time, the amount. I thought i made that clear in the first post? Sorry, it's a little confusing since we are using the same phrase for both things.

 

[olie]

I like how some people don't agree with/understand my idea and have to call me a troll and my idea valueless.

 

[Train2]

I think your comments are valid, but I don't think the solution is going to work - because most people don't WANT the limiter. i know it would only irritate me, more so than provide a "spike" when it's ready again...

Instead though, the concept SHOULD probably be included in explanations to new vapers of how to be successful if they're trying to quit cigarettes.

And I don't think we want to tell people to seek "as close to a cig as possible". Instead, we should emphasize "here are some things that are DIFFERENT about vaping" and coach them to enjoy them. Key differences including
a) actual tasty flavors
b) No start/stop built into the device - so pace yourself a little
(once you've got equipment and liquid that's eliminating the urge to burn leaves at least)
c) Consider creating your own "rituals" - with the gear perhaps - to fulfill that dopamine cycle

Bear with me here,

Here's a brief description of how dopamine works: You start a goal or action that has a desired consequence such as smoking to satisfy your nicotine craving, your dopamine starts to spike as soon as you begin the sequence of events leading up to smoking e.g. you pull the cigarette out of the pack, you put it to your lips, you take the first toke. After this the dopamine dips down a little and when you feel the "goal" is complete it will spike a little again - this is why the last few tokes often feel the best and why stomping the .... can feel satisfying.

View attachment 343631

compare it to vaping: it's a little skewed how the sequence of events happen. Nothing feels regular, most of us don't have to go outside to vape, there's no end to vaping except when the tank runs out. The events of start and finish are very hazy and far apart compared to smoking cigarettes. This is especially a problem for new vapers.

My solution:
I suggest manufactures needs to come out with a e-cig that has a limit on the tokes with several LED's lining the side of the e-cig which slowly go out one by one to show roughly how many tokes are left, once no LED's are lit up the e-cig would deactivate. The e-cig would activate again and the LED's would light back up after a period set by the user (as a interesting side note: if you added a beep or something when it's ready to use again it would give you the sort of emotional trigger getting a text message does - if your a phone addict like most of the culture). Besides being much more satisfying it would also stop us chain vaping, which some (not all) people consider to be an issue.

As another side note: i feel a lot of vapers are getting addicted to buying gear and this might help them get their dopamine fix instead of trying to get it through buying stuff.

The point of this device is not to stop people chain vaping, so please stop with those comments.

 

[brickfollett]

Not the time, the amount. I thought i made that clear in the first post? Sorry, it's a little confusing since we are using the same phrase for both things.

Amount of time would be a perfect measure of amount, just so we're clear. I can take 50 short vapes and 50 long vapes and the amount would be different. Time is directly related to appoint

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[brickfollett]

I think your comments are valid, but I don't think the solution is going to work - because most people don't WANT the limiter. i know it would only irritate me, more so than provide a "spike" when it's ready again...

Instead though, the concept SHOULD probably be included in explanations to new vapers of how to be successful if they're trying to quit cigarettes.

And I don't think we want to tell people to seek "as close to a cig as possible". Instead, we should emphasize "here are some things that are DIFFERENT about vaping" and coach them to enjoy them. Key differences including
a) actual tasty flavors
b) No start/stop built into the device - so pace yourself a little
(once you've got equipment and liquid that's eliminating the urge to burn leaves at least)
c) Consider creating your own "rituals" - with the gear perhaps - to fulfill that dopamine cycle

Train2, your sound like you work in retail management haha. I do! Very good points though

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[olie]

I think your comments are valid, but I don't think the solution is going to work - because most people don't WANT the limiter. i know it would only irritate me, more so than provide a "spike" when it's ready again...

Instead though, the concept SHOULD probably be included in explanations to new vapers of how to be successful if they're trying to quit cigarettes.

And I don't think we want to tell people to seek "as close to a cig as possible". Instead, we should emphasize "here are some things that are DIFFERENT about vaping" and coach them to enjoy them. Key differences including
a) actual tasty flavors
b) No start/stop built into the device - so pace yourself a little
(once you've got equipment and liquid that's eliminating the urge to burn leaves at least)
c) Consider creating your own "rituals" - with the gear perhaps - to fulfill that dopamine cycle

It needs development i admit but i think it could help people trying to switch and just make the experience of vaping better. Telling people to create rituals with their gear could work just as well as what i'm saying. For example most people (me) don't bother switching the device on and off, doing that before and after each vape session you set out for yourself could have the same effect.

 

[olie]

Here's a routine for people to try: choose a toke count that will satisfy you and always use it up to that number, turn your device on and off whenever you use it and keep it out of reach in the same place when not using it. In theory it should increase your satisfaction once you're used to the routine, i will be trying it myself.

 

[cooperator]

I live in a place where I still have to go outside to vape-they treat e-cigs just like cigs. When I'm at home, I sometimes go out on the patio to vape. But when I don't, I've also never had a problem knowing when I'm satisfied. I have overdone it a few times and caused myself insomnia, but I don't think a limit on the device would help. Dopamine levels are just one factor in nicotine addiction and I'm not convinced there is a way to change of device that would make a significant difference. In short, I don't see a the device needing modified, just the person who is adjusting from analogs to electronic. That adjustment needs to happen regardless of how one quits the stinkies. We all probably suffered a little, but my suffering was nothing compared to my attempts at cold turkey, gum, patches, champix, and everything else I tried and failed at.

 

[Vermiform]

How about an external device that fits between a battery and tank? It could function as a puff counter and also be programmed to where it needs to be reset after a certain number of puffs.

 

[Ryedan]

Here's a routine for people to try: choose a toke count that will satisfy you and always use it up to that number, turn your device on and off whenever you use it and keep it out of reach in the same place when not using it. In theory it should increase your satisfaction once you're used to the routine, i will be trying it myself.

I understand your concept olie and I suggest you test it. If it has merit, you have a great business opportunity.

It's what I think of as a 'one trick pony' and I doubt it will work, but I have been wrong before .

Also, if you want more respect from people here, I suggest you show more respect to the people here. Getting the hang of that will also help you in a big way when you test your theory.

Good luck with it and vape on

 

[Trypno]

Not sure if anyone else agrees, but I understand what the OP is saying.

When I first tried to start vaping about six years ago, a big problem I had was not knowing when I was supposed to be, or when I was done. I would just keep puffing and puffing.

Then again, I think the biggest problem was the quality of the cigalike I was using. I was trying to use a Smoke 51, which was awful and in no way satisfied my nicotine craving, which led to my constant puffing.

Since I've moved to tanks and mods I can actually feel the nicotine taking effect, and if my stomach gets upset, or I get a headache, I know I've vaped too much, and will know to stop earlier next time. If I chain vape at all, it's because I like the flavor and smell of my juice

Which brings me to my next point. Cigalikes seem to be the only form of electronic cigarette where the user might not know when he/she is actually done, as they would when a cigarette has burned all the way down.

I think the idea of lights on the side that blink out slowly over a set period of time, either chosen by the manufacturer or user, is a novel idea that could work, it could definitely help the psychological factor of smoking a cigalike compared to an analog, though it could drive the price point of cigalikes up, which could be a deterrent to newbies.

 

[Ryedan]

When I first tried to start vaping about six years ago, a big problem I had was not knowing when I was supposed to be, or when I was done. I would just keep puffing and puffing.

Agreed, but IMO having a external signal that indicates when you should stop vaping is not going to work. It doesn't address the issues we are experiencing.

I understand about dopamine, the uncertainty of reward and unlimited lag time. What is missing IMO and is not going to be addressed by these aspects are the other chemicals smokers are addicted to and have to get over when they switch. The dopamine effect is not strong enough to counteract this.

Then again, I think the biggest problem was the quality of the cigalike I was using. I was trying to use a Smoke 51, which was awful and in no way satisfied my nicotine craving, which led to my constant puffing.

Since I've moved to tanks and mods I can actually feel the nicotine taking effect, and if my stomach gets upset, or I get a headache, I know I've vaped too much, and will know to stop earlier next time. If I chain vape at all, it's because I like the flavor and smell of my juice

The chemical mix in smoking is very different compared to vaping. Nicotine is a small part of this. I used to vape myself into a state of too much nic and still wanted to vape more. IMO the benefit of absorbing a lot of nic is only helpful when we make the switch away from smoking and the nic gains significance for a while as a replacement for the other chemicals that have left the soup. After a while, as I think you have experienced also, the addiction is overcome and we vape much more for pleasure.

I think the idea of lights on the side that blink out slowly over a set period of time, either chosen by the manufacturer or user, is a novel idea that could work, it could definitely help the psychological factor of smoking a cigalike compared to an analog, though it could drive the price point of cigalikes up, which could be a deterrent to newbies.

I really doubt it, but as I said before I've been wrong once (or twice) before . I also believe that if we make vaping more similar to smoking, vaping will become more addictive than it is now. That's not a scenario I like.

I would prefer to keep vaping as different from smoking as possible while still allowing people to switch to vaping reasonably easily and lose the cigarette addiction. That's my $0.02 and you know what they say about free advice

 

[skoony]

regards
mike

 

[Robino1]

I think that some need to re familiarize themselves with http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html

In particular:


8. Courtesy
a. Members must be polite at all times. When addressing another Forum user, you will be polite. Courteous discussion is welcome here but heated and abusive argument is not. If attacked you are not allowed to respond in kind. Instead use the Private Message system and try to resolve matters privately and amicably. If problems persist ask for the help of a Moderator.

9. Personal attacks
You can disagree with the subject matter of a post, but never personally attack the poster - “Attack the post, not the poster”. Treat people as you would like to be treated yourself: with courtesy.

Do have a nice day!

 

[Vaslovik]

Bare with me here,

Here's a brief description of how dopamine works: You start a goal or action that has a desired consequence such as smoking to satisfy your nicotine craving, your dopamine starts to spike as soon as you begin the sequence of events leading up to smoking e.g. you pull the cigarette out of the pack, you put it to your lips, you take the first toke. After this the dopamine dips down a little and when you feel the "goal" is complete it will spike a little again - this is why the last few tokes often feel the best and why stomping the .... can feel satisfying.

I think if you dig deep enough looking for a problem you will find one and can then make much of it. For me this problem is not a problem at all, and not something I would ever have gone looking for, nor do I care in the least about it. Vaping got me off a 2 1/2 pack a day habit, for almost a year now, and I'm a lot healthier as a result.

What any specific neuraltransmitter does in response to whatever actions I'm undertaking does not concern me, that's just part of living. I'm quite sure we can assign any number of dopamine responses to any number of activities, including sex, eating, driving, and posting here. I just don't see any problem. Please point us to peer reviewed papers on this matter if you are able to, I don't base my decisions on unsubstantiated posts in online forums.