The TVECA on VP Live

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kristin

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I swear to god, I'm about ready to start selling e-cigs just so I can start a U.S. vendor's association!! :rolleyes:

Seriously, if any vendors want to start an association that would represent the majpority of vendors and be willing to fight for what consumers want, too, in addition to the ECITA there are a lot of e-cigarette advocate groups and vaping clubs who would be willing to help you get started and would support you!!
 

JustJulie

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hoogie76

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I'm hoping that some vendors actually read this thread. It seems to me that the U.K. situation was pretty dire . . . until ECITA started advocating for vendors and a sensible approach.

I've been reading this thread repeatedly and it would be great to be able to support the right organization that would help us along.. Being politically challenged, support would be the biggest resource I could provide.

btw.. thanks everyone for the great info about tveca and helping me understand thier position.
 

Uma

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I'm confused... I thought David said he wants to hear from the Vendors, wants the Vendors to pull together into one army, and firght the FDA and Legislators. That to this date, the only way we can survive the brutal attack (without a good army of support) is to compromise...

I felt he was trying desperatly to educate not only the lawmakers but the group that he is now a spokesman for too. He admitted to being naive about some points and really needs input and the support of the educated vapers out here to guide the club into a sensible and worthwhile and honest battle.

His eyebrows were raised during the phone calls. He thirsted after more.

If that group wants to represent the whole, then shouldn't we get together (well, the vendors I suppose) and become vocal enough ... and perhaps even vote for new leadership in the group if needed. ?
 

D103

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I swear to god, I'm about ready to start selling e-cigs just so I can start a U.S. vendor's association!! :rolleyes:

Seriously, if any vendors want to start an association that would represent the majpority of vendors and be willing to fight for what consumers want, too, in addition to the ECITA there are a lot of e-cigarette advocate groups and vaping clubs who would be willing to help you get started and would support you!!

100% agree Kristin. We are in dire need of a solid, all inclusive Trade Association, with savvy leaders who know the ropes and who are willing to listen to consumers and the various consumer groups and forums - CASSA, ECF, Vapors Forum, etc. and who can skillfully articulate a coherent, TRUTHFUL and consistent message representing the technology and the industry. Also, leaders who know how to navigate what surely will be "troubled waters" whenever the FDA gets started on regulation proposals for electronic cigarettes - persons with negotiation skills who can fight and compromise for us without "giving away the store."
 

rolygate

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@Uma
The e-cigarette industry is divided into several groups who all have one ultimate aim - to survive - but who have opposing agendas in their daily business. This is a common scenario in other industries and they eventually learnt that to survive, they had to put aside their differences and work together. Here are some of the divisions:

Chinese manufacturers / Western retailers
Vendors of 2-piece cartomizer models to first-time buyers / the rest of the retail industry
Impulse purchase vendors / aftermarket vendors
Hardware vendors / e-liquid vendors
Stock model vendors / mod vendors

Some vendors are in more than one group, but there are a multitude of groups who do not have the same commercial aims and who will react to regulation in different ways. The biggest split in the retail area is between the vendors who service the 2-piece first-time buyer market, and everybody else. The first group, 99% of whose trade is essentially carto models (let's call them the Cartovendors), can easily survive under the toughest regulation. Nobody else can. Therefore the Cartovendors have two excellent reasons for supporting tough regulations: it suits them fine, and all their competition will be killed off for them by government.

Essentially this means the Cartovendors have no reason at all to listen to the rest of the industry, once the business itself has survived the first onslaught (as it has). In fact they will support tough regulations gladly as that will perform a useful commercial job for them: removing all the competition.

David G is in a difficult position here because he needs to go with the group that will win out whatever the end result, and who have the best resources to pay him - and that's the Cartovendors. Can't blame him at all.

The only good thing about this situation is that pressure from the Carto group also helps the rest of the trade - up to the point where they start to sing the same song as the FDA, which eventually they will, as that means the removal of all their competition.

What it needs now is for the bulk of the trade to get together and start a big PR campaign to refute the lies spread by the pharma industry agents. That takes money and nobody wants to spend a cent, even though they are going to be slowly and surely wiped out if they don't. Where are all the ecig /eliquid vendors going to go when the FDA makes it illegal to sell liquid; illegal to sell flavors; illegal to sell atomizers and carts; illegal to sell cartos over 12mg strength; illegal to sell mail order?

Mexico. That's where most US ecig businesses will have to relocate.

It's kind of hard to see why they aren't getting together to fight this. They need to start a lobbying and PR campaign with our message, not that of those being paid by the pharma industry to kill e-cigs. Until the ridiculous situation stops where public figures repeat the lies as if they were true, it will never end. It needs half-page ads in the media, giant billboards, posters put up everywhere - with the truth, not the lies. That or say goodbye to the bulk of the US e-cig trade in 2 or 3 years, as the FDA stranglehold starts to work. Ads like this:

23m8s55.gif
 
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rothenbj

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@rolygate,

I almost agree with everything you said and I brought up the subject a while back about those ads. They are expensive and the people benefiting from this business need to not only run them, but have the trade association behind them to go to war.

What I have some question about is whether Cartovendors, as you appropriately name them, will end up winners even if the industry gets pushed into their model. I can envision TVECA aligning themselves with what they feel the FDA wants to see and perhaps back rooming to that model, only to find BT jump in better prepared both technically and logistically to replace them in the market. BT hasn't just sat in the background contently watching their cigarette sales erode. Plus they have billions to build a better mousetrap and then to market it destroying the existing competition.
 

rolygate

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Sure - I agree entirely. This is the reason we saw resistance from the tobacco industry gradually drop away, so that by 2010 it was only the pharma industry who were funding the 'kill ecigs' campaign. BT has seen intense regulatory pressure in the West of late, and their overseas markets are easier to service now. But if ecigs get in - well that's a whole new ball game.

They control the raw materials and the distribution chain, and have the marketing skills and manufacturing/packaging assets. A Marlboro E-Cigarette will sell every bit as well as the tobacco model - better, at some stage in the future.

BT will certainly get into the market and you can be sure their planning is well advanced already. Of course, they'll go for the carto market as it's the easiest to service and has the highest profits. In fact it's made for them.

As you say, they'll be monster there. But it will take them a while to get rolling, the Cartovendors still have plenty of time before they start to feel the pinch. Anyway, the market will expand hugely when the big boys weigh in, as that will send a clear signal to the public that it's OK to buy e-cigarettes. There will be space for all. And the aftermarket vendors, relocated in Mexico, will also do well. There will be an immense upgrade market that can only be serviced by overseas vendors, when the FDA shut down everybody except the plain-tobacco KR8 sellers.
 

Bill Godshall

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rolygate wrote:

A spokesperson with a name is certainly needed and David fits the bill in every way - he knows the issues and the players intimately, and will be a very effective lobbyist.

After reading and hearing David many times in the past 15 years, I've neither seen nor heard anything indicating that he'll be an effective lobbyist. And I'm not aware that he nor the TVECA has/have taken any action to oppose or defeat any legislation that would ban the sale or restrict the usage of e-cigarettes.

Based on previous correspondences with the CEO of the TVECA (which is the first trade association I've ever heard of that has a CEO), it appears that the TVECA's primary goal will be to eliminate competitor e-cigarette products and companies.
 

CJsKee

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Bill...was wondering where you were -- good to see you back! First, if you haven't listened to the radio broadcast, the link is An hour with The TVECA 2/20/2011 - kevbow | Internet Radio | Blog Talk Radio. David's story was fascinating! Then!!! -- Julie and Treece called in and took David to task on TVECA's organization and goals, etc. It's a great show and I think Julie and Treece maybe gave David some things to think about.
 

Placebo Effect

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And here is David essentially implying that he supports flavor bans.

Yarbrough: Ban sales of electronic cigarettes to minors - East Valley Tribune: Health

Supporters of the bill say the fruity or candy flavors are one reason why e-cigarettes are popular among young people.

. . .

David Goerlitz, president of the Tobacco Vapor Electronic Cigarette Association, which is based near Atlanta, said the industry supports banning e-cigarettes for minors.

“Businesses that sell to kids, shame on them,” he said. “They should lose their license and be fined severely, just like you would for tobacco. Any law that prevails for tobacco should also prevail for electronic cigarettes.”
 
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D103

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It seems to me that the only way to have a truly effective and fair Trade Association is to have one where all the board members are "financially neutral", having NO financial conflicts of interest - no partial ownership, no affiliation with or other personal investment of any kind with ANY particular e-cigarette company. We really need an association who will act in the best interests of the e-cig industry as a whole and will best represent a wide and inclusive body of vendors. The board must be able to deliberate free from commercial competition concerns within the industry, instead choosing to remain above "retail concerns" while remaining steadfast in an adherence to a singular, yet comprehensive mission statement that is dedicated to the viability, safety and durability of electronic cigarette technologies in the open marketplace. This over-arching goal is to be achieved through establishing reasonable and responsible product and manufacturing standards, quality control mechanisms and Trade Association representation in all governmental deliberations concerning regulatory proposals and schemes for this industry as well as any applicable taxation proposals.
 

freakindahouse

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What you have described, D103, is almost EXACTLY what ECITA is, apart from the fact that our membership comprises ecig businesses. But I fail to see how you could have a Trade Association which wasn't made up of members of the industry - by definition.

We are currently working with American colleagues to see how we can help. We believe we may have found a solution, and will be putting this together over the coming weeks.

Cheers,

Katherine
 

D103

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What you have described, D103, is almost EXACTLY what ECITA is, apart from the fact that our membership comprises ecig businesses. But I fail to see how you could have a Trade Association which wasn't made up of members of the industry - by definition.

We are currently working with American colleagues to see how we can help. We believe we may have found a solution, and will be putting this together over the coming weeks.

Cheers,

Katherine

That is good to hear Katherine and I apologize for my ignorance about ECITA - I've not kept up with things as well lately. I will certainly look into your association more. I didn't mean to suggest that there could not be members of the association who had direct ties to specific e-cig businesses, they would be vital of course, but I still think it important for the leadership to be "neutral." I am looking forward to what you have to offer in the future and thank you for offering to help, we need all the experienced and devoted help we can get.
Thanks again,

Richard
 

rolygate

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Yes, I expect you are right that David is not a professional lobbyist. Perhaps, though, he never had a true lobbying position before, and this job seems to fit him quite well. Also, to work the media, you have to be a name - and that he is. I think he will be an effective media spokesperson because above all the media love names. In addition he comes over well, and is certainly never lost for words.

That may be a different job description from 'lobbyist' though, which implies someone with political connections and ability. On that score I've no idea how he will make out.

The ultimate aim of TVECA is something we can agree on entirely. I think that, in the beginning, the noise they make will be advantageous. Later on they will not be of much help to trade or community, in fact the opposite seems likely. A 'trade' group of carto-only vendors, with a board no one else can get on, only has one agenda.
 
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freakindahouse

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Thank you for your response, Richard. We are working with our American colleagues to try to find a solution and will be developing this over the coming weeks. If you are interested, the ECITA blog is linked from our website's 'News' page at Welcome to ECITA, the Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association.

Hopefully, we can make some progress, but it's not going to happen overnight, as we are all aware.

Cheers,

Katherine
 

kristin

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I still think it important for the leadership to be "neutral."

The only problem is that there are no leader candidates who don't have a vested interest in protecting e-cigarettes. Those who are qualified either oppose us or have no interest in the cause. I guess the only ones who would fit your requirement could be non-selling vapers. Would vendors follow them? I don't know....

The only other option would be an e-cigarette consumer protection group, which would set standards and require vendor certification for endorsement (like the UL.). Or something set up as a rating group like Consumer Reports. The resources, dedication and time needed to accomplish this would be monumental. Not only would someone have to verify every vendor application, someone would have to continuously follow up and confirm standards compliance or face possible litigation. It's the main reason CASAA has remained an advocacy group for protecting the legal use of smokeless alternatives and not become a product standards/protection group against e-cigarette companies.
 

Uma

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Thanks for filling me in, lessening my confusion.
I was right that David has good intentions... but I am leaning more about the group he has decided to support. That group is downright scarey and frustrating. Who died and made them God????

I thought ECITA had bellied up.... now I face another confusion.

If they outlaw flavors because it's too attractive to kids... then how will I ever replace my Tuna, Shrimp, Jalepeno dip, Cucumber, Sardnes, ....
 
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