This isn't going to be helpful

[Brewdawg1181]

Ok, many of you won't like this but I see something that the cigarette community defends cigarettes and the vaping community defends vaping and don't even like to go into details and just assume that if a mishap happens its because of the negligence or wrong use of the product by the user. We have seen many instances where mobile phone batteries explode even when everything was fine from the user end. A battery can explode without doing anything wrong. Its rare but not impossible.

Then I see everyone is bashing the mom because her boy is underage. Yes I do agree he is underage but somehow he got into smoking and his Mom tried to find a substitute for him. Please note I never support underage vaping or smoking but I see the scenario here and what else his mom could have done other than buying him a vape device. Yes its her fault that she didn't do deep research before buying the right device for him but isn't some fault of the vape shop also? Obviously that woman was not given the right device she required.

I see there is no sympathy for this boy or his Mom and both are being constantly bashed by vaping community in that article's comment section. We are human beings and we can do mistakes. There are many members here who started smoking when they were underage. It can happen.

Again I say we need our own governing body like FDA which can give certificate to a product when it is launched for public. In this way we ll be sure that we are having tested and certified products. Vaping is 95 percent safer than smoking but I would love to see it regulated by some governing body. I know mostly will not agree with me but I believe we need it to be safe alternative forever and if it is not regulated we may see more such incidents in future because of lack of user knowledge and lack of product safety. We are bound to use batteries which are not even produced by manufacturer for vape mods. We need our own authentic tested batteries which can handle things like shock to device or which have auto shut down mechanism if they get hot.

Again I repeat I don't support underage smoking but I am against this attitude to blame everything on the user.

I agree with much of the sentiment, but not the action. I'll admit that after starting vaping, I was surprised how much danger there was in battery use. And I agree that a common perception here is that people are lazy or stupid for not learning all about batteries, charging, ohm's law, etc. Sure, if you're going to use a mech, you absolutely must learn, no ifs ands or buts. And if you use an external battery mod, you'd better know how to properly charge and use them. But the fact is, most here are hobbyists - I mean, they're on a vape forum! The vast majority care little about learning, beyond finding a satisfying vape. There are millions of vapers, and what - thousands of people on vape forums?

But the FDA has no expertise, and should have no purview over electronic devices. The way I see it, there are really 3 classes of device, and should have different sets of "guidelines": mechs, internal battery, and replaceable battery, which are designed to use batteries that are not designed for them. The masses tend to believe they're all in the same class, and ignore the safety warnings like they ignore the 3 pages of safety warnings on a blowdryer. They mistakenly think all the warnings are overkill, just like on thousands of other products they buy. And why wouldn't they, after seeing the warning that their mod contains nicotine?

So I'm not sure what the solution is. Federal regulation quite often does more harm than good, but it will almost inevitably come. The mere threat of regulation and lawsuits can do wonders for self regulation - more for US companies than Chinese, though.

 

[awsum140]

I have to comment.

Just what we need, another Governmental Agency to handle vaping, like the FDA isn't a big enough pile of crap. It would be staffed with more idiotic, self-anointed, experts with their own private ax to grind, and grind they would.

The overall problem, from my perspective anyway, is that there is no more personal responsibility and an expectation that Government, or some agency thereof, can make everything totally safe and risk free and protect from stupidity, youth and just plain ignorance. Of course, being able to litigate because your wore flip flops while mowing the lawn, ran over your own foot with the mower and removed a few toes doesn't help either. It all fits the "blame the device, not the operator" theory being promulgated everywhere.

If you like going to the DMV, the Post Office or any other Governmental Agency, you'll just love the FVA, Federal Vaping Agency.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

Ok, many of you won't like this but I see something that the cigarette community defends cigarettes and the vaping community defends vaping and don't even like to go into details and just assume that if a mishap happens its because of the negligence or wrong use of the product by the user. We have seen many instances where mobile phone batteries explode even when everything was fine from the user end. A battery can explode without doing anything wrong. Its rare but not impossible.

Then I see everyone is bashing the mom because her boy is underage. Yes I do agree he is underage but somehow he got into smoking and his Mom tried to find a substitute for him. Please note I never support underage vaping or smoking but I see the scenario here and what else his mom could have done other than buying him a vape device. Yes its her fault that she didn't do deep research before buying the right device for him but isn't some fault of the vape shop also? Obviously that woman was not given the right device she required.

I see there is no sympathy for this boy or his Mom and both are being constantly bashed by vaping community in that article's comment section. We are human beings and we can do mistakes. There are many members here who started smoking when they were underage. It can happen.

Again I say we need our own governing body like FDA which can give certificate to a product when it is launched for public. In this way we ll be sure that we are having tested and certified products. Vaping is 95 percent safer than smoking but I would love to see it regulated by some governing body. I know mostly will not agree with me but I believe we need it to be safe alternative forever and if it is not regulated we may see more such incidents in future because of lack of user knowledge and lack of product safety. We are bound to use batteries which are not even produced by manufacturer for vape mods. We need our own authentic tested batteries which can handle things like shock to device or which have auto shut down mechanism if they get hot.

Again I repeat I don't support underage smoking but I am against this attitude to blame everything on the user.

I definitely don't like it when bleeding hearts apologists try to rain on a perfectly fine pitchfork parade. In the absence of damning evidence to the contrary, knowing what we know about mech mods and the nature of teenagers, Occam's Razor tells us that user error is the most likely explanation. The user was even reported to say that he had never even considered battery safety ("I didn't know it could explode!"). It's a case of ignoring the warning labels and neglecting to become informed. Such irresponsible behavior does not merit sympathy, compassion or the benefit of the doubt. Moreover, we have the justification to be angry since his idiocy ended up hurting the entire vaping community.

 

[kashif]

I agree with much of the sentiment, but not the action. I'll admit that after starting vaping, I was surprised how much danger there was in battery use. And I agree that a common perception here is that people are lazy or stupid for not learning all about batteries, charging, ohm's law, etc. Sure, if you're going to use a mech, you absolutely must learn, no ifs ands or buts. And if you use an external battery mod, you'd better know how to properly charge and use them. But the fact is, most here are hobbyists - I mean, they're on a vape forum! The vast majority care little about learning, beyond finding a satisfying vape. There are millions of vapers, and what - thousands of people on vape forums?

But the FDA has no expertise, and should have no purview over electronic devices. The way I see it, there are really 3 classes of device, and should have different sets of "guidelines": mechs, internal battery, and replaceable battery, which are designed to use batteries that are not designed for them. The masses tend to believe they're all in the same class, and ignore the safety warnings like they ignore the 3 pages of safety warnings on a blowdryer. They mistakenly think all the warnings are overkill, just like on thousands of other products they buy. And why wouldn't they, after seeing the warning that their mod contains nicotine?

So I'm not sure what the solution is. Federal regulation quite often does more harm than good, but it will almost inevitably come. The mere threat of regulation and lawsuits can do wonders for self regulation - more for US companies than Chinese, though.

I definitely don't want FDA to put its nose into vaping. It is already proved they are very biased about vaping. I really feel that vaping community need to form a trusted body for this purpose of their own. Since the battery issue is so sensitive we do need batteries made and designed specially for mods. We don't have other options now unfortunately.

I have to comment.

Just what we need, another Governmental Agency to handle vaping, like the FDA isn't a big enough pile of crap. It would be staffed with more idiotic, self-anointed, experts with their own private ax to grind, and grind they would.

The overall problem, from my perspective anyway, is that there is no more personal responsibility and an expectation that Government, or some agency thereof, can make everything totally safe and risk free and protect from stupidity, youth and just plain ignorance. Of course, being able to litigate because your wore flip flops while mowing the lawn, ran over your own foot with the mower and removed a few toes doesn't help either. It all fits the "blame the device, not the operator" theory being promulgated everywhere.

If you like going to the DMV, the Post Office or any other Governmental Agency, you'll just love the FVA, Federal Vaping Agency.

I definitely don't like it when bleeding hearts apologists try to rain on a perfectly fine pitchfork parade. In the absence of damning evidence to the contrary, knowing what we know about mech mods and the nature of teenagers, Occam's Razor tells us that user error is the most likely explanation. The user was even reported to say that he had never even considered battery safety ("I didn't know it could explode!"). It's a case of ignoring the warning labels and neglecting to become informed. Such irresponsible behavior does not merit sympathy, compassion or the benefit of the doubt. Moreover, we have the justification to be angry since his idiocy ended up hurting the entire vaping community.

I do agree with you. When a cigarette bud cause a fire that kills the whole forest, no one blames smoking but when a mishap like this happens everyone blames vaping but I still sympathise with this boy because of the injuries he suffered because of the device he should not have used. But as I said mistakes can happen. He didn't blow his device on purpose. What we need to see here is to have awareness about proper use of batteries and most importantly we need batteries which are designed for the vape mods specially and not just any 18650s or other batteries which are not produced by manufacturer for a vaping mod.

 

[Baditude]

What we need to see here is to have awareness about proper use of batteries and most importantly we need batteries which are designed for the vape mods specially and not just any 18650s or other batteries which are not produced by manufacturer for a vaping mod.

And that's the problem. There are no battery manufacturers who are making batteries specifically for vaping. All 18650 batteries are made to be used ONLY in a battery pack with a BMS (battery management system) for mobile power tools.

battery pack with BMS

As vapers, we are "borrowing" the available technology because there's nothing else available to suit our needs. The vaping market is but a very small fraction of who uses these batteries, and designing and manufacturing a battery exclusively for vaping would not be profitable or make sense to these manufacturers. As a matter of fact, manufacturers like Lg, Samsung, and Sony don't even want us to be using their batteries (see the warning letters below).

A few years ago, Battery Mooch was in touch with a battery manufacturer who showed some interest to research and possibly design a battery for vaping. Mooch did a poll of what features vapers wanted in a vaping battery. You would think a safer battery design would top the votes, but that was not the case.

”Cheating” on the Molicel new battery poll...really?

 

[Eskie]

And that's the problem. There are no battery manufacturers who are making batteries specifically for vaping. All 18650 batteries are made to be used ONLY in a battery pack with a BMS (battery management system) for mobile power tools.

battery pack with BMS

As vapers, we are "borrowing" the available technology because there's nothing else available to suit our needs. The vaping market is but a very small fraction of who uses these batteries, and designing and manufacturing a battery exclusively for vaping would not be profitable or make sense to these manufacturers. As a matter of fact, manufacturers like Lg, Samsung, and Sony don't even want us to be using their batteries (see the warning letters below).

A few years ago, Battery Mooch was in touch with a battery manufacturer who showed some interest to research and possibly design a battery for vaping. Mooch did a poll of what features vapers wanted in a vaping battery. You would think a safer battery design would top the votes, but that was not the case.

”Cheating” on the Molicel new battery poll...really?

Just to point out one issue we sometimes forget to address. A BMS is nothing fancy. It's required to provide over and under voltage cutoff, balanced charging and discharging, and support a total Amp load appropriate to the battery selection made. Our regulated mods should, and some do, provide a that functionality. Any regulated mod that can't do that probably shouldn't be on the market to begin with, as this isn't all fancy circuit and product design. If that were in place then once we insert the proper battery for the device it is the equivalent of having the same protections as any battery pack (which can still fail).

Mechs, well, if anyone does choose to regulate devices based on electrical standards sold at retail in the US, stand no chance of remaining aside from hobbyist small scale FB sellers. They are specialty devices meant for those with knowledge and experience with them. And let's face it, one of the big arguments for mechs were they were the only way to get more than 15-20W to a coil. That's no longer an issue with 300W devices out there (as stupid as they are).

 

[kashif]

And that's the problem. There are no battery manufacturers who are making batteries specifically for vaping. All 18650 batteries are made to be used ONLY in a battery pack with a BMS (battery management system) for mobile power tools.

battery pack with BMS

As vapers, we are "borrowing" the available technology because there's nothing else available to suit our needs. The vaping market is but a very small fraction of who uses these batteries, and designing and manufacturing a battery exclusively for vaping would not be profitable or make sense to these manufacturers. As a matter of fact, manufacturers like Lg, Samsung, and Sony don't even want us to be using their batteries (see the warning letters below).

A few years ago, Battery Mooch was in touch with a battery manufacturer who showed some interest to research and possibly design a battery for vaping. Mooch did a poll of what features vapers wanted in a vaping battery. You would think a safer battery design would top the votes, but that was not the case.

”Cheating” on the Molicel new battery poll...really?

Thanks and that's very unfortunate. So this means we not gonna see dedicated batteries for vape devices ever or at least not anytime soon because the way I see it the vaping community is not worried about this issue and I also think that if a manufacturer makes batteries for vape devices and its pricey than the conventional 18650s then people will just buy the regular ones and not which are produced specifically for mods. We are borrowing a battery which is not meant to use outside its box and to me this is not something to be taken lightly to be honest but I didn't read any concern over it ever anywhere and just whenever a mod explodes its a common practice to blame the end user. As I said batteries in mobile phones can explode even when there is no mistake of user.

I can take certain precautions like never make my own juice and always buys a juice which is tested by manufacturer to be free from anything which I am not suppose to inhale. But I am dependent on the batteries from Sony or LG etc because I don't have any other choice which is sad.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

It's naive to take statements like this at face value. It's called CYA and they're doing it to limit legal liability. If courts weren't known to occasionally make boneheaded ruling, LG and Sony wouldn't bother saying anything. These are convenient documents for them to have on record in case somebody tries to blame them for anything in the future, but they have no intention of wasting money trying to enforce them.

They're effectively saying, "we refuse to assume liability unless you pay us a licensing fee to make it worth our while" and we're saying "get off your high horse, they're only lithium cells and we're perfectly capable of supplying our own 'enclosure, protective devices and circuitry' without any help from you."

In fact, it's kind of like if a multinational grain grower were to assert that their brand of barley was not suitable for use in home beer brewing. The appropriate response would be, "screw you, it's a commodity, Molson already uses your barley, so we'll do the same."

 

[Horselady154]

I'd like to know if it was a mech mod and if the batteries sold them were the appropriate ones.

Frankly, if it was a mech mod, I don't understand why a vape shop would sell that to a noob.

The vast majority of people out there are not going to seek a Master's degree in vaping before they purchase their first device or take their first toot.

 

[bombastinator]

I'd like to know if it was a mech mod and if the batteries sold them were the appropriate ones.

Frankly, if it was a mech mod, I don't understand why a vape shop would sell that to a noob.

The vast majority of people out there are not going to seek a Master's degree in vaping before they purchase their first device or take their first toot.

An angry mother can push around a salesperson pretty good, and it doesn’t always turn out well. Once back in the 70’s when I was a wee wee lad, my mother took me to a movie because it was a cartoon and how bad could cartoons possibly be so when the ticket person tried to stop her from bringing me in she threw an unholy fit and got me in anyway. The movie was “Wizards”. It was by far the most violent thing I had ever seen in my life I spent the movie in more or less a state of shock and threw up in the car.
The movie is almost cute by today’s “family guy” standards but I was thoroughly traumatized. (It’s actually kind of a great film btw. Just don’t show it to an 8 year old)

 

[Baditude]

1) I'd like to know if it was a mech mod and if the batteries sold them were the appropriate ones.

2) Frankly, if it was a mech mod, I don't understand why a vape shop would sell that to a noob.

3) The vast majority of people out there are not going to seek a Master's degree in vaping before they purchase their first device or take their first toot.

1) Since this incident happened quite some time ago, and the media is just now reporting it, we probably have all the details that we will ever learn about this incident. These stories are all about sensationalized headlines, or click bait, with very little details in the story. If this incident does make it to trial, the parties generally agree to keep the details and end results quiet. So we probably know about as much as we ever will about this incident.

2) We don't know for certain it was a mech mod although previous history would suggest it was, or specifically where the mother/son purchased the battery device. The son could have ordered it online with his mother's credit card. Or he could have paid cash for a prepaid credit card at a Walmart, and ordered it online with the prepaid card. Kids are ingenious...where there is a will there is a way.

I'm sure that most of us long timers on the forum have read many stories of vape shops selling an "over specced" mech mod to a noob vaper because the noob wanted to "make clouds, bro". Some shops are only interested in making a quick sale and to be damned of the consequences.

3) Unfortunately, that is generally the case. It should not be surprising that most consumers know very little about lithium battery consumables when they begin to vape. I know I didn't, and I had one explode on me because of my ignorance. These high powered lithium battery devices are not the same as an AAA battery remote control for the TV or media center, but noobs don't necessarily realize that.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Yes, I noticed the date on this, and wondered who decided to make it news again.

I often hear that "vape shops shouldn't sell mechs to newbies." Okay, maybe they shouldn't. But I have a hard time envisioning this actually happening, if that's what someone asks for. Is there a standardized ohm's proficiency test they're supposed to giving? I mean, they can make recommendations. But even if the shop owner is knowledgeable and responsible, most of the vape shop employees I've encountered are just basically kids, and I've known more about vaping than 90% of them I've dealt with (I'm no master- look at my join date). In this case, the kid (ignorantly) picked out what he wanted, and mom went to the store to get it. Would/should the salesperson quiz the mom, and absolutely refuse to sell to her, knowing it was for someone else?

This is just an area where self-regulation should happen, but won't. It's inevitable that we'll continue to hear these stories, and the government will step in to "save" us.

 

[Baditude]

This is just an area where self-regulation should happen, but won't. It's inevitable that we'll continue to hear these stories, and the government will step in to "save" us.

Like it or not, for better or for worse, I think you might be correct.

I've made a previous post that seems to point in that direction:

New proposed FDA and UL guidelines for e-cigarette manufacturers that will affect YOU.

• No more "removeable, external battery" 18650-type mods, only internal lipo's.
• No more "mech mods".
• No more "open system" juice attachments to be able to refill your tanks yourself.

 

[bombastinator]

Yes, I noticed the date on this, and wondered who decided to make it news again....

NBC apparently. Or some poor sap at NBC who got fooled into reprinting an old story as if it were new. Which leads me to wonder about the the origional instigator of the reprinting what their agenda was.

Everything is corruptible.

 

[vimagreg]

For me, the point is quite simple. People use to be quite childish these days, showing simply no enough maturity to answer for their mistakes. And, because of that unprepared human beings we, who knows exactly what we are doing, who are prone to face consequences of our own decisions and who knows very well everything you put close to your or someone else body's needs to be studied and very well understood, are cursed to live in nanny-States who spent so much time figuring out how will it protects us in every sense that no time is spent in do what proper States are supposed to do.

Responsibility. The rarest commodity these days...

 

[bombastinator]

For me, the point is quite simple. People use to be quite childish these days, showing simply no enough maturity to answer for their mistakes. And, because of that unprepared human beings we, who knows exactly what we are doing, who are prone to face consequences of our own decisions and who knows very well everything you put close to your or someone else body's needs to be studied and very well understood, are cursed to live in nanny-States who spent so much time figuring out how will it protects us in every sense that no time is spent in do what proper States are supposed to do.

Responsibility. The rarest commodity these days...

I’d say that problem is worse rather than better these days. Its more a question of who is doing it and how big the resulting mistakes are.

“Nanny states” merely spread the the repercussions around equally instead of allowing the more powerful to push their mistakes downhill until there is someone who doesn’t have the resources to defend themselves and has to take them.