This will get you thinking. Trying to explain to a non somker about ecigs.

[8a31]

Today I had an uncomfortable conversation with a non smoker about my ecig. To set the stage, We had a presentation in a large room with tables set up throughout. There were a few people at each table (kind of like the old grade school lunchroom). I was stealth vaping as I always do. Its out of respect not because I have to. After the presentation a few of us stayed behind for a few minutes to talk. I forgot and blew out a small cloud of vapor. My coworker who was obviously not happy told me he didn't appreciate being exposed to second hand vapor (not smoke). He has looked at a few websites about ecigs and has a basic understanding of them.

Keep in mind this conversation was respectful on both sides. His concern was all of the chemicals in the juice. Of course I told him about it containing PG, VG and flavoring. He knew about them and said he wasn't worried about the base chemicals, it was the flavorings he was concerned with. He asked how many flavors are made of the substance they mimic? He used an example of cinnamon. He said if you buy a fireball candy, it tastes like cinnamon but it has quite a few chemicals in the flavoring to make it taste that way. I couldn't argue that fact as he continued. When you eat something, the acid in your stomach digests it. Your body uses what it needs or wants and discards the rest. He then asked "what in my lungs digests what is useful and discards the rest other than the obvious"?

I was stumped because he was right. I remember, Dr. Farsalinos even posed a similar concern about flavoring.

As we fight legislation and lobbyists to keep vaping, this question will be asked again. This man is educated and isn't interested in a generic answer. He doesn't care about what I inhale into my body because he doesn't use my lungs to breathe. He doesn't care about how ecigs are safer than cigarettes because he doesn't have to be exposed to them in the workplace. The emissions from cars, buses or trucks aren't a concern because he works and spends most of his time indoors.

What are your thoughts? What would you have said? How would you have handled this? Do you know of any research that has been done on flavors?

 

[Nermal]

Because of the size of the base mixture molecules, the lungs adsorb very little of the vapor in the vaper. Your friend is starting with a much diluted concentration. I'm guessing he doesn't like visible proof that he's breathing something that came out of your body. Kind of a yuckie idea when you think about it, but vape or no vape, that is going to happen anyway.

 

[Hiding]

Should have asked if he has the same problem with people who wear cologne or perfume. Same chemicals, and you inhale those into your lungs.

Or for that matter, if you are cooking some food with added flavoring, if you can smell it you are inhaling it.

Even while eating those same cinnamon candies, if you breath while sucking on one, some of those chemicals are entering your lungs.

 

[OBDave]

I'm inclined to say that the molecules expelled when you exhale vapor are unlikely to enter someone else's body unless they're literally sucking on your cloud...but I must admit I'm really not prepared to back that belief with scientific evidence. Touche to your unusually-educated ANTZ coworker for now, but I imagine someone else here will have the scientific evidence to blow out his theory.

 

[Steam Turbine]

I would tend to agree with OBDave that flavoring molecules from second hand vapor is no more dangerous than the flavoring molecules that comes out of a baking cake... But it is a valid concern that needs to be addressed and studied (if not done already). If someone knows if this study has been done I would like to know about it.

 

[ScottP]

Should have asked if he has the same problem with people who wear cologne or perfume. Same chemicals, and you inhale those into your lungs.

Or for that matter, if you are cooking some food with added flavoring, if you can smell it you are inhaling it.

Even while eating those same cinnamon candies, if you breath while sucking on one, some of those chemicals are entering your lungs.

^^^ This

It is NOT possible to smell anything without it also going into your lungs. Thus any food, candy, or beverage that he had ever smelled that contained these flavorings has already been in his lungs. That is not to say that they are all safe in ultra high doses. Just look up "popcorn lung". However the doses in second hand vapor are nowhere near high enough to be a problem.

 

[Rickajho]

He then asked "what in my lungs digests what is useful and discards the rest other than the obvious"?

Well I can't get behind the illogical analogy to begin with. Other than that read the Drexel report as that's the best review of the data we have so far. First link at the top of the reports.: Lab Reports: ecigarettes

 

[ScottP]

I should also say that to me the bigger concern might be with ingredients that could potentially cause severe allergic reactions. For instance do any flavors contain nut oils such as peanuts? If so and you vape that around the wrong person it could send them into anaphylactic shock. I personally will never vape anything that might have any nut flavor in public...stealth or not.

 

[FourWinds]

This always makes me laugh.

You tell them it's only food flavouring, and they are delighted to respond by saying 'aha, but you eat that, who knows what it will do if you inhale it!'

I just ask them if they've ever cooked or eaten processed food, and if they held their breath whilst doing so.

 

[erazzz]

Your body uses what it needs or wants and discards the rest.

"what in my lungs digests what is useful and discards the rest other than the obvious"?

I'm not quite sure what he means by this. Our small intestine does most of the nutrient absorbing (large intestine is mostly for water absorption). It doesn't just take "what is useful". I wish! If that was the case, diets would be obsolete "Oh I already had enough fat today! Don't need to absorb that!"

It will also absorbed medications, toxins, poisons, and so on if you ingest them.

Seems like a smart guy, I'm sure he was just trying to make the point that the digestive system is for food and food flavorings, not the lungs. Still, many of you are right. You inhale artificial flavors and smells quite often. Smelling your food as you eat it is part of what gives you taste.

 

[SPACKlick]

It's pretty simple.

1) You inhale the same proportion of my exhalation whether or not I vape. (actually slightly different amounts due to the way vape falls and rises as opposed to different temperature airs...anyway)
2) What goes into me with vape is PG/VG, Nicotine, Flavourings.
3) What comes out is PG/VG, Nicotine, Flavourings, slightly more water than usual.
4) PG/VG are safe and have been used for years. Very little nicotine comes out. So really only the flavourings can be of concern.
5) You smell most of the ingredients in vape flavour every day, the stronger the smell, the more you're taking in. The exhaled vape hardly smells, therefore you're taking in next to no flavourings.

 

[jpargana]

This always makes me laugh.

You tell them it's only food flavouring, and they are delighted to respond by saying 'aha, but you eat that, who knows what it will do if you inhale it!'

I just ask them if they've ever cooked or eaten processed food, and if they held their breath whilst doing so.

This.

Just thinking how insane the 'no-one knows what's in there' argument is, and also the tried e-cig medicalization on the last 08October... let's see...

The main ingredient of our juices is the solvent: Propilene glicol, and/or vegetal glycerine, maybe with a little purified water to lower the viscosity. Do you know where I can buy PG, VG and purified water? AT THE PHARMACY!

Now, let's look at nicotine, which is optional... I don't really know about the safety standards of the pure, liquid nicotine that is later added to our concentrated, nicotine bases (Nicotine + PG and/or VG, that can be bought at a pharmacy. (All we do is DILUTE that base in MORE PG and/or VG, that can be bought at a pharmacy... )

But I do know this: Pharma uses that nicotine to make patches that we put in our skin, gums that we put in our mouth and inhalers that we... well... INHALE... so, I believe that it must be free of 'dangerous' chemicals or contaminants; otherwise they would show in the final product, ruining they 'pharma tests'.

In other words, if it is 'good' and 'safe' enough for Pharma to produce medicines, you can bet it is safe enough to be used in our liquids!

Until now, we have only ingredients that are either sold already with 'pharma certification', or are good enough for Pharma to make products with said 'pharma certification'! And yet, the EU wanted e-juice makers to pay incredible amounts of hard-earned money for MORE 'pharma certification' ??? Am I missing something here?

And last, the flavours... the 'demonic' flavours that are 'apealling to childreeeeen', and 'NOT pharma tested'... well, just like the e-juice itself, they do NOT need to be 'pharma tested', because they are 'consumer products'...!

(Can you imagine, having bottled water with a mandatory 'pharma certification' to be allowed in market... and then being sold at the price of Scotch, because of the added economical burden? Without any REAL advantage from that, because simpler 'consumer product' regulation has done the job so far?)

Flavours are already used in food that we eat and SMELL, cosmetics that we rub in our skin, perfumes that we SMELL... but all of a sudden, everyone loses their minds because of flavours IN E-LIQUID - the same flavours, with the same market certification, that everyone deals with in their everyday's lives... without batting an eye...!

 

[ScottP]

Just thinking how insane the 'no-one knows what's in there' argument is...

Hmm that gives me an idea. We should get a 200+ page House Bill created that ensures the freedom of eCigs, and prevents it from being taxed beyond normal sales taxes. Since it will be too long to read, Nancy "we have to pass it to see what's in it" Pelosi will of course push it through.

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

And about the only other thought I might add to the outstanding contributions above is to mention proximity.

The larger / fatter molecules can't get very far, so unless you two are very close personal friends, I suspect not many of them are making it through - further diluting anything that anyone of hypersensitivity could ever have a physical reaction to (can't speak to the psychosomatic ninnies)

Btw, excellent post OP!!


Oops - my bad and kudos to OBDave who said way up in post #4:

I'm inclined to say that the molecules expelled when you exhale vapor are unlikely to enter someone else's body unless they're literally sucking on your cloud..

I'm comfortable with the idea that the concentration levels could be nothing more than trace / background levels. Not only Drexel's Burstyn study, but fellow member p.Opus's provocative piece he posted a couple weeks back, that basically 'runs-the-numbers'.

Hang on, let me see if I can find it... Talk quietly amongst yourselves ...

Okay, I'm back.

The myth of second hand vape

Warning - if you get drawn into the thread, there are 743 posts! Get a pot of coffee and top off your tank before settling in for a long read!

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

Okay one more thought... hopefully my memory is going to provide me with an accurate recollection of previous research ...

OSHA* sets permissible exposure level (PEL), that would be applicable to the manufacturing of the artificial flavorings.

It would seem that the people who make these flavorings, typically using generally regarded as safe (GRAS) ingredients, would be falling over dead due to exposure to far higher concentrations that could ever be produced via second hand vapor.

I really like the idea of reminding people that these are the same ingredients the population lives with, (food, cosmetics, candles, etc.) every single day of their lives.

* OSHA establishes one set of 'exposure levels' and the EPA another - can't ever remember which one associates with which set.

Gotta go dig that out, and maybe write it down on a memory-sheet somewhere (if I can ever find where I put that notebook! )

 

[FourWinds]

Perhaps if 'they' regulate on the basis of food flavorings, we should all demand that government supplies us with little gas masks for the children to wear whilst mum is cooking the dinner.

 

[Robino1]

I'm inclined to say that the molecules expelled when you exhale vapor are unlikely to enter someone else's body unless they're literally sucking on your cloud...but I must admit I'm really not prepared to back that belief with scientific evidence. Touche to your unusually-educated ANTZ coworker for now, but I imagine someone else here will have the scientific evidence to blow out his theory.

Bolded by me.

I would not call the co-worker an ANTZ. He doesn't care what the OP is putting in his own body, he's only concerned with what potentially is in the exhaled vapor. An ANTZ wants all forms of tobacco and nicotine wiped off the face of the earth. The co-worker sounds like an intelligent curious person that if presented with factual data could change his mind.

 

[Doughboy67]

Tell him to hold his breath when he goes into a public restroom. You know where those molecules cam from!!!!

 

[Bosco]

The whole second hand vape thing is tricky . .especially for a non-scientist like me. I had some friends over the other week for dinner and, after dinner, I started vaping. They had both heard of e-cigs and knew I use them - one of them even tried mine once when he was drunk - he is not a smoker, never has been. I have no idea why he wanted to try my e-cig but that's another story, lol.

But they were both uncomfortable sitting across the table from me vaping and inhaling second hand vapor (I was not blowing it at them, btw). Rather than explain to them why they should not be concerned, I just put the pv away for a bit and then stepped out of the room to vape. I guess there are 2 reasons I did that . . 1 is that although I have read the studies out (or most of them) I don't feel like they are conclusive enough for me to argue with somebody that doesn't want to breath second hand vape. 2 is just out of politeness.

Are people who wear too much perfume rude? Hell yes I think they are! I find a person with too much perfume or cologne on totally disgusting and I distance myself from them although I stop short of asking them to go wash some off.

Just to be clear .. I don't dispute or not believe the studies that exist. I consider second hand vape safe enough that I vape in the same room as my kids - I never smoked around them. But is there enough conclusive information available that I could use it to argue my position against somebody complaining about my second hand vape? I don't think so . .not for me, anyway.

 

[Jay-dub]

I'd think kitchen workers would be exposed to more flavorings and all around air-born particulates than an average vapist. As a customer, I'm being exposed to whatever isn't ventilated out of the kitchen. I guess a professional grade ventilation system is probably better at venting air than what I have at home so I should maybe only eat raw foods or make some one else cook in a well ventilated area to avoid exposure.

Lungs produce mucus to capture and expel foreign material.