This will get you thinking. Trying to explain to a non somker about ecigs.

[Uma]

It's a grand summary isn't it! What a great idea to incorporate into your own letters to the politicians, along with the Drexel report. Thank you for your time & effort!

Haha. No, no title. But thanks for the thought!
Oh, and speaking of the essay, here's a fun post about the ALA, ACS, & Pfizer. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-raised-over-anti-smoking-guide-funding.html

 

[Talyon]

i suppose the phd chemists i've worked with in a flavor plant were all wrong.

So your saying that these phd chemists u work with, have indeed tested the flavors that are actually in some of our eliquids.

Interesting, as there is a study going on as we speak , with real samples bought from vendors without vendor knowledge.

Can u provide links and or data and how these tests were performed plus the credentials of those doing the testing and in what lab etc etc?

Ty in advance for this info.

 

[OBDave]

Bolded by me.

I would not call the co-worker an ANTZ. He doesn't care what the OP is putting in his own body, he's only concerned with what potentially is in the exhaled vapor. An ANTZ wants all forms of tobacco and nicotine wiped off the face of the earth. The co-worker sounds like an intelligent curious person that if presented with factual data could change his mind.

Thanks for the clarification, Robino! I'm pretty new to, and not entirely comfortable with slinging the "ANTZ" label around...

 

[OBDave]

Tell him to hold his breath when he goes into a public restroom. You know where those molecules cam from!!!!

Dang, I totally forgot to suggest the comeback of letting the guy know that whenever he smells a fart he's breathing poop particles...

 

[03FXDWG]

The cinnamon flavoring in your PV is no different than what is in cereal and it is possible you were using a naturally extracted cinnamon while alot of the cinnamon flavoring in foods is fake.

Even indoor air pollution is a problem in buildings where the windows don't open and the doors have wind breaks or revolving doors. The buildup from cleaning supplies, air fresheners, paint, carpeting, carpet padding and tile glue have caused many problems in some buildings here & sent a bunch of people to the hospital. There is a state office building in Jefferson City, Missouri that was made infamous right after it opened because of these & other problems. It still happens occasionally in the St. Louis area after new carpet is laid, especially. I know I had to work from home for 3 days when the office next to mine was putting in new carpet--massive migraine!

There is no way our PV's can cause as much indoor air pollution as one Glade Lavender & Peach air freshener. I swear that thing smelled like someone had set great grandma's hair on fire. Hubby liked it but my son and I couldn't stay in the room with it for 5 minutes. Even breathing through our mouths didn't work. I finally yanked it out of the wall & told hubby to take it to the garage if he insisted on using it.

I will add that if I am getting a little vape happy with a cinnamon heavy liquid while sitting next to hubby, he can smell it and although he likes the smell, it does irritate his air ways just a little but a little is enough to set off an asthma attack in some people or during high allergy count seasons.

 

[SPACKlick]

OMGZORS ban food NOW...We MUST save the kids!!!!

/sarcasm off

Umm, no they don't or they would not be FDA approved for food.

Actually yes they do. A good primer here. But as always the devil is in the dose and method of application.

Most complex molecules you put in your body are carcinogenic or toxic to SOME degree. Usually they're only dangerous at levels where you would die of something else before the exposure hurts you. Let's not deny lots of the contents of the flavourings are dangerous, to swim in.

 

[Ca Ike]

I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit. The pragmatism and cordiality shown here is a refreshing change.

On a personal note my GF has seasonal allergies and at times can't handle even the lightest scented candle, though she burns them daily the rest of the time. I hate them but tolerate them as long as its a scent I can enjoy. HOwever, when a candle sends her into coughing fits due to allergies even if its lit in another room, I can fill the room with vape clouds and she has no allergic reactions even on a similar scent. I'm talking can't see the TV through the fog amount of vape here and not just the small cloud here and there. Its actually gotten to where she picks what I vape sometimes when she wants to scent up a room and can't handle a candle

 

[SPACKlick]

The Drexel university medical school study results are in this link. It's the result of a study of thousands of vapers who participated over a 5 year period. The doctor who wrote the report comments in the report that he believes vapor is harmless to bystanders and adds that his findings were that all the components of ecig vapor are far below the levels considered safe by the EPA. Standing on a city street corner inhaling fumes from cars and buses may just be much more harmful to your health than vaping.
http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/media/files/publichealth/ms08.pdf

To summarise that paper
Someone vaping 25ml/day of >50% PG juice will be exposed to potentially concerning levels of PG. (60% of the TLV for all non-specified organic vapours)
Shock of Shocks, anyone vaping a juice with a nic content is likely getting more than the TLV of nicotine.
Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons were found in the aerosol. Pyrene was the only PAH detected in one study. Pyrene is not carcinogenic.
Tobaccos Specific NitrsosAmines were present in >90% of liquids. Although they were in concentrations 1/1000 that found in SNUS. A daily dose of 25-50picograms was calucalted on worst case scenarios. This number is enough to warrant some caution but will likely decrease as nicotine manufacture improves. May warrant regulation/control.
Volatile Organic compounds;
Acrolein 2% of TLV across 150 measurements
Formaldehyde: 0-4% TLV
Both of the above come from one experiment where the atty was left running for a long time and “atomizer, generating high concentration carbonyls, had been burned black”
VOC except benzene, acetic acid and isoprene were all much below 1%TLV in exhaled vapor
DiEthylene Glycol was detected in anomalously high levels in one study, even at those levels <1%TLV exposure to vaper.
Metals, taking the worst case for each of the metals results in <1% TLV on worst case scenario assumptions about the form of these metals.

Conclusion
"By the standards of occupational hygiene, current data do not indicate that exposures to vapers from contaminants in electronic cigarettes warrant a concern. There are no known toxicological synergies among compounds in the aerosol, and mixture of the contaminants does not pose a risk to health. However, exposure of vapers to propylene glycol and glycerin reaches the levels at which, if one were considering the exposure in connection with a workplace setting, it would be prudent to scrutinize the health of exposed individuals and examine how exposures could be reduced. This is the basis for the recommendation to monitor levels and effects of prolonged exposure to propylene glycol and glycerin that comprise the bulk of emissions from electronic cigarettes other than nicotine and water vapor. From this perspective, and taking the analogy of work on theatrical fogs [45,46], it can be speculated that respiratory functions and symptoms (but not cancer of respiratory tract or non-malignant respiratory disease) of the vaper is of primary interest."

"The cautions about propylene glycol and glycerin apply only to the exposure experienced by the vapers themselves. Exposure of bystanders to the listed ingredients, let alone the contaminants, does not warrant a concern as the exposure is likely to be orders of magnitude lower than exposure experienced by vapers. Further research employing realistic conditions could help quantify the quantity of exhaled aerosol and its behavior in the environment under realistic worst-case scenarios (i.e., not small sealed chambers), but this is not a priority since the exposure experienced by bystanders is clearly very low compared to the exposure of vapers, and thus there is no reason to expect it would have any health effects."

"The only unintentional exposures (i.e., not the nicotine) that seem to rise to the level that they are worth further research are the carrier chemicals themselves, propylene glycol and glycerin. This exposure is not known to cause health problems, but the magnitude of the exposure is novel and thus is at the levels for concern based on the lack of reassuring data."

 

[DaveP]

PG and VG in high concentrations is my only concern about long term irritation to lungs. I've generally adjusted my voltage to that which produces a visible exhale and satisfactory nic level. If I crank it and vape huge clouds I can feel the irritation after a while. The fog in concentration isn't meant to be vaped at extremely high levels for long periods. EPA says that it's a workplace concern that warrants monitoring among those who work in theatrical stage environments or those who work where it's used all day long in vapor form.

For that reason, I think we are better off limiting the concentrations of PG and VG. The GRAS terminology is applied to normal exposure, not puffing clouds all day that obscure vision. Less is more. It's more about tapering off the nicotine than it is about heavy concentrations.

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit. The pragmatism and cordiality shown here is a refreshing change.

On a personal note my GF has seasonal allergies and at times can't handle even the lightest scented candle, though she burns them daily the rest of the time. I hate them but tolerate them as long as its a scent I can enjoy. HOwever, when a candle sends her into coughing fits due to allergies even if its lit in another room, I can fill the room with vape clouds and she has no allergic reactions even on a similar scent. I'm talking can't see the TV through the fog amount of vape here and not just the small cloud here and there. Its actually gotten to where she picks what I vape sometimes when she wants to scent up a room and can't handle a candle

That is hilarious!

There has to be some type of marketing opportunities off this concept

 

[twgbonehead]

Please don't lump candle scents in with e-cigarette flavorings! Candle scents, in general are NOT regarded as safe for ingestion. The food flavorings used in e-cigarettes ARE regarded as safe for ingestion.

The argument that candle-makers use (successfully, by the way) is that the scents are released in such small amounts that they can be considered safe.

 

[Nick Dubs]

Ask if they've ever been to a concert that's used a fogger... It is usually a PG water mix, and food flavorings are sometimes added to make it smell more pleasant.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingswork/a/smokemachines_3.htm

http://www.amazon.com/American-F-Sc...id=1392915242&sr=8-2&keywords=fog+juice+scent

http://www.froggysfog.com/c=D1WP4w9...nt-Additive-for-Fog-Fluid-and-Haze-Juice.html

 

[8a31]

Ask if they've ever been to a concert that's used a fogger... It is usually a PG water mix, and food flavorings are sometimes added to make it smell more pleasant.

I never thought of this one. It may be one of the best arguments because the only thing missing is the nicotine which is contained in the very foods we are told are some of the healthiest.

 

[Nick Dubs]

Also, this:

http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/med...ealth/ms08.pdf
An extract from the abstract:

The calculations reveal that there was no evidence of potential for exposures of
e-cigarette users to contaminants that are associated with risk to health at a level that would warrant attention if it were an involuntary workplace exposures by approaching half of
TLV [threshold limit value]

In summary,an analysis of current state of knowledge about chemistry of liquids and aerosols associated with electronic cigarettes indicates that there is no evidence that vaping produces inhalable exposures to contaminants of the aerosol that would warrant health concerns by the standards that are used to ensure safety of workplaces.

 

[Dominique Hoogduin]

Please don't lump candle scents in with e-cigarette flavorings! Candle scents, in general are NOT regarded as safe for ingestion. The food flavorings used in e-cigarettes ARE regarded as safe for ingestion.

The argument that candle-makers use (successfully, by the way) is that the scents are released in such small amounts that they can be considered safe.

scented toilet paper.. something tells me that isnt healthy ;p

 

[03FXDWG]

Please don't lump candle scents in with e-cigarette flavorings! Candle scents, in general are NOT regarded as safe for ingestion. The food flavorings used in e-cigarettes ARE regarded as safe for ingestion.

The argument that candle-makers use (successfully, by the way) is that the scents are released in such small amounts that they can be considered safe.

Which is exactly why bystanders exposed to the flavorings in e-liquid should be considered safe. They are already considered safe to ingest/be exposed to during preparation. Then we vaporize them and inhale them further filtering them for innocent bystanders.

On another note, some flavorings are multipurpose and safe for all purposes.

 

[DaveP]

I'm trying to develop a habit of holding my vape in my mouth for a few seconds and then doing a shallow inhale, just enough to allow me to exhale through the nose. Since there is a slight irritation to the bronchial tubes and the fact that most of the nic is absorbed through the mucous membranes anyway, there's not a good reason to inhale the vapor directly into the lungs every time.

Sometimes I do sense a little chest heaviness from vaping huge clouds of vapor over a long period. Others have expressed the same when using high VG or high PG juices and they experiment with mixes that are better suited for them until they find one that is a little less harsh. I try to reduce my voltage levels to the lowest level that produces pleasing vapor about equal to the ultra light cigs I used to smoke.

Theatrical fog is somewhat regulated by the EPA due to performers experiencing chest heaviness, lung irritation, and other mild maladies after being involved in extended stage and film set exposures to the mist. The EPA health effects are mentioned in the last few paragraphs of the article. The worst effects occurred when mineral oil fog was used. Most are primarily PG with a mix of other glycols added.

We can't really say that vaping huge clouds all day long doesn't have some detrimental effect.

Theatrical smoke and fog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In May 2005, a study published in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine,[7] conducted by the School of Environment and Health at the University of British Columbia, looked at adverse respiratory effects in crew members on a wide variety of entertainment venues ranging from live theatres, concerts, television and film productions to a video arcade. This study determined that cumulative exposure to mineral oil and glycol-based fogs were associated with acute and chronic adverse effects on respiratory health. This study found that short-term exposure to glycol fog was associated with coughing, dry throat, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, and tiredness. This study also found long-term exposure to smoke and fog was associated with both short-term and long-term respiratory problems such as chest tightness and wheezing. Personnel working closest to the fog machines had reduced lung function results.

 

[edyle]

The real issue isn't whether it is safe, the real issue is etiquette. It's about being polite.

 

[klynnn]

I don't even try anymore. My neighbor is 73 and a non-smoker who always had colds and sinus issues and used to ask me about it. I smoked 48 years with bouts of bronchitis at least twice a year. She has watched me quit and since I haven't been sick in the last 2 years now she has me making her a no nic juice. We are watching to see how it goes.

 

[jpargana]

i suppose the phd chemists i've worked with in a flavor plant were all wrong.

Not exactly... sorry, but maybe you got it wrong...

Let me put is this way: Pharma NRT's have tobacco-specific nitrosamines in them. Those nitrosamines are carcinogenic. They appear from the process of liquid nicotine extraction: a SMALL quantity of those nitrosamines is extracted along with the nicotine. Did you see I capitalized 'small'? As everything in Nature, quantity is the key... too much oxygen will kill us, because we evolved in an atmosphere NOT made ALL of oxygen. And yet, we will also die without it.

Those nitrosamines ARE present in Pharma products, but at concentrations that do not pose any threat to people who use them. That's why FDA approved them, even for prolongued use. I believe this is the case with flavourings, also... they may have carcinogenics in them, but not at a level to pose any threat.

Speaking of FDA, this is exactly the fear-mongering tactic they used with their e-liquid tests: "It has nitrosamines in them!! They are carcinogenic! E-liquid should be banned!!". WITHOUT saying that the LEVELS of nitrosamines found were similar to those found in Pharma products - products that THEY, themselves, approved as safe earlier.
They did not even publish the results for the Nicotrol inhaler (the very control group, or product, of that 'study'). Why? Of course, to keep people from realizing that they were basically the same. To keep people from wondering "Why call for a ban on e-cigs, and approve Nicotrol? OMG!! Is Nicotrol dangerous, ALSO??". That would put a Pharma product in a bad light, paired with another product that 'should be banned'...! And God forbid attacking Big Pharma, in ANY way...