Time to DO SOMETHING !!!

[maclean]

Not to bash him, but I do believe he does not really know anything about E-cigarette's or the industry as a whole. That was reflected in the articles as it was filled with half-truths to out right wrong information

Casey,

You might want to point out to him something I saw in a forum post here - to wit, that on Planet Earth, we spend $57 billion a minute!!! on cigarettes*. That might give him an idea of the comparative size of the lobbies involved. ecig manufacturers would need to be selling trillions of items more to even begin to compete with the tobacco lobby's money.

* I hope this information is genuine. I read it here, but I can't vouch for it.

mac

 

[DC2]

From my reading of it, I think he meant just the opposite. He meant there was heavy lobbing to keep them on the market and that's why the FDA didn't ban them. I wanted to show him that there is some lobbying, but not to the extent he believes there is.

That was my reading of it as well.
The FDA is, and has been actively trying to ban electronic cigarettes.

If he really wants to understand what is happening he just needs to review the current court case...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...t-important-thing-every-vaper-needs-know.html
SE, NJoy vs FDA -- court dockets / updates
What is this Case all about, why do we need to watch it, and how to get up to speed on it.

 

[NinetyNine]

Casey,

You might want to point out to him something I saw in a forum post here - to wit, that on Planet Earth, we spend $57 billion a minute!!! on cigarettes*. That might give him an idea of the comparative size of the lobbies involved. Ecig manufacturers would need to be selling trillions of items more to even begin to compete with the tobacco lobby's money.

* I hope this information is genuine. I read it here, but I can't vouch for it.

mac

That seems a tad high. 57 Billion X 60 minutes per hour X 24 Hours per day X 365 days per year= 29,959,200,000,000,000

Or 29 Quadrillion dollars a year on tobacco.

 

[maclean]

That seems a tad high

LOL. It does seem high when you put it that way.

I did read it somewhere in here, but it could be wrong. Or equally likely, it was millions, not billions, and my memory is wonky.

The point is, the comparative strengths of the vapers/tobacco lobbies depend on money. I'm sure there are statistics out there which demonstrate exactly how much money the tobacco lobby has to burn in order to maintain their market position.

mac

 

[Pheisty]

I hate to kill anyone's hope, here, but I can tell you that once political wheels are in motion--especially when HUGE money is involved--your voices don't make a bit of difference. I found this out the hard way here in Wisconsin when a friend of mine and I decided to start a group called 'Ban the Ban' to stop the smoking ban. We got interviewed on radio shows, had newspaper articles about our efforts, had thousands of members and got lots of donations...but in the end, we discovered that we were incredibly naive to the power and money behind the legislation.

Here's what's stacked against us:

1. The e-cig industry isn't wealthy enough to buy politicians. This is huge. Unfortunately, this is what our 'democracy' has become. If you don't have money, you don't get a snowball's chance in hell. Big Pharma and Big Tobacco have money. They already have politicians in their back pocket.
   
2. Tax Revenue - I don't have to tell you how much money government generates from the taxes on cigarettes. They don't want us to quit smoking any more than Big Pharma wants us to stop being depressed and stop taking their drugs. You know how much tax money is generated from cigarettes, because you've purchased the things. This is a freaking cash cow for state gov't and the feds. Now that they've discovered that a very high percentage of people are quitting smoking with e-cigs and not purchasing their cancer sticks, what do you think they're going to do? They have to regulate it so they can tax it (best case scenario)...or they'll simply ban it.
   
3. Shockingly enough and contrary to popular belief, government does NOT care about your health. If they did, they'd ban cigarettes--and thousands of prescription drugs--outright. (Go back to #2) So they can do all the testing in the world and make us 'prove' that these juices are better for us than smoking, in the end, that's not what their concern is. It's money and power.
   
4. Anti-Smoking Nazis - Trust me, I have had my run-ins with these people at the 'American Lung Association' and 'American Cancer Society' level. They are busybodies with no sense of humor, who hate their lives because they spend most of it running 5 K's, biking to work, doing yoga after work with their 'LiveStrong' yellow wristbands on, and eating so much fiber that they are obsessed with discussing their BM's. In other words, they don't have fun. So when they see us enjoying what looks exactly like smoking, they get ...... OFF. It isn't about health for them, it's about you enjoying something that looks like something unhealthy but isn't, when they've spent so much time demonizing it because...well, they're jealous that you just don't give a s***, and that you don't care what people think of you...because THEY DO and are miserable because of it.
   
5. The Media - These fools have been a tool of central planning gone insane for well-over a decade. Whatever the Nanny State wants, the media will be sure to sway public opinion their way. Trust me. The only media that don't do the bidding of Big Government are Talk Radio and bloggers. Period.

On the positive side, I think that we CAN change public opinion about vaping. This is our best and only hope, in my opinion. But we won't do it by 'hiding' and pretending like we're doing something wrong. We need to get out there and show people that it really is safer than smoking, that we feel better vaping than we did smoking, and that we're actually QUITTING or drastically reducing our smoking. And I mean vaping in front of children, pregnant women, small farm animals...whomever. And TALK about it. Have your facts. Be prepared to answer questions and to tell your story.

When I was with Ban the Ban, we had the Constitution on our side. No government entity should be able to tell a private business owner that they cannot allow a legal act on their private property. We brought this up time and time again, that this issue was about property rights, and if the government wanted to be honest about it, they should just ban cigarettes. We had property rights on our side, and we still lost. Obviously our elected officials don't give a rat's ... about our 'rights', let alone our 'health'.

Gosh, I wish I weren't jaded. I wish I could be positive, but I know what we're up against. I've faced the government machine, the media, and their 'We Know What's Best for You' non-profit propagandizing thugs, and all I can say is "Good freaking luck".

 

[jtcaseyjr]

I hate to kill anyone's hope, here, but I can tell you that once political wheels are in motion--especially when HUGE money is involved--your voices don't make a bit of difference. I found this out the hard way here in Wisconsin when a friend of mine and I decided to start a group called 'Ban the Ban' to stop the smoking ban. We got interviewed on radio shows, had newspaper articles about our efforts, had thousands of members and got lots of donations...but in the end, we discovered that we were incredibly naive to the power and money behind the legislation.

Here's what's stacked against us:

1. The e-cig industry isn't wealthy enough to buy politicians. This is huge. Unfortunately, this is what our 'democracy' has become. If you don't have money, you don't get a snowball's chance in hell. Big Pharma and Big Tobacco have money. They already have politicians in their back pocket.
   
2. Tax Revenue - I don't have to tell you how much money government generates from the taxes on cigarettes. They don't want us to quit smoking any more than Big Pharma wants us to stop being depressed and stop taking their drugs. You know how much tax money is generated from cigarettes, because you've purchased the things. This is a freaking cash cow for state gov't and the feds. Now that they've discovered that a very high percentage of people are quitting smoking with e-cigs and not purchasing their cancer sticks, what do you think they're going to do? They have to regulate it so they can tax it (best case scenario)...or they'll simply ban it.
   
3. Shockingly enough and contrary to popular belief, government does NOT care about your health. If they did, they'd ban cigarettes--and thousands of prescription drugs--outright. (Go back to #2) So they can do all the testing in the world and make us 'prove' that these juices are better for us than smoking, in the end, that's not what their concern is. It's money and power.
   
4. Anti-Smoking Nazis - Trust me, I have had my run-ins with these people at the 'American Lung Association' and 'American Cancer Society' level. They are busybodies with no sense of humor, who hate their lives because they spend most of it running 5 K's, biking to work, doing yoga after work with their 'LiveStrong' yellow wristbands on, and eating so much fiber that they are obsessed with discussing their BM's. In other words, they don't have fun. So when they see us enjoying what looks exactly like smoking, they get ...... OFF. It isn't about health for them, it's about you enjoying something that looks like something unhealthy but isn't, when they've spent so much time demonizing it because...well, they're jealous that you just don't give a s***, and that you don't care what people think of you...because THEY DO and are miserable because of it.
   
5. The Media - These fools have been a tool of central planning gone insane for well-over a decade. Whatever the Nanny State wants, the media will be sure to sway public opinion their way. Trust me. The only media that don't do the bidding of Big Government are Talk Radio and bloggers. Period.

On the positive side, I think that we CAN change public opinion about vaping. This is our best and only hope, in my opinion. But we won't do it by 'hiding' and pretending like we're doing something wrong. We need to get out there and show people that it really is safer than smoking, that we feel better vaping than we did smoking, and that we're actually QUITTING or drastically reducing our smoking. And I mean vaping in front of children, pregnant women, small farm animals...whomever. And TALK about it. Have your facts. Be prepared to answer questions and to tell your story.

When I was with Ban the Ban, we had the Constitution on our side. No government entity should be able to tell a private business owner that they cannot allow a legal act on their private property. We brought this up time and time again, that this issue was about property rights, and if the government wanted to be honest about it, they should just ban cigarettes. We had property rights on our side, and we still lost. Obviously our elected officials don't give a rat's ... about our 'rights', let alone our 'health'.

Gosh, I wish I weren't jaded. I wish I could be positive, but I know what we're up against. I've faced the government machine, the media, and their 'We Know What's Best for You' non-profit propagandizing thugs, and all I can say is "Good freaking luck".

While I agree with some of what you say, I think there is a bigger issue here. That is people are willing to talk about doing something and then, Not do it! First The vendors refuse to organize themselves and would rather bicker with each other than get together and do something, even though it's their businesses at stake. I almost get the feeling the vendors are out for as much money as they can get while they can get it.

Second we as a community talk about the need to do something and show are anger here on a forum only WE read. That's not helpful. The CASAA is active, but that's not enough. If we really care about these things we need to all be voicing that everywhere we can.

Let's face it President Obama weather you voted for him or not became President because of basically having a grass root movement. Nobody had given him a shot and many were negative about the prospect of him winning. But he changed public opinion. That is what we have to do. Right now, it is against us, but public opinion sways like the wind. If we put in the effort we can change it. We just actually need to put in some effort.

I'm afraid at this moment it is sorely lacking in that department.

 

[maclean]

Shockingly enough and contrary to popular belief, government does NOT care about your health. If they did, they'd ban cigarettes--and thousands of prescription drugs--outright

Yep. That's for sure. We've all known for years (or should know) that analogs keep government budgets afloat. There's no way they want you to stop smoking.

But as casey points out, grass roots movements can be pretty effective once they get going. Ross Perot had money, but he also had a bunch of people who were sick of established pols and their games, and that got him as far, or further, than the money did.

I firmly believe that educating the public - friends, relatives, strangers - in any small way contributes to the cause. And although the media mostly kow-tow to money, there are still some people in it willing to give a fair hearing to anyone who is standing up for their rights.

I agree with much of what you say, pheisty, but this is not the time to be defeatist. Even if the odds are stacked against us, we still have to fight back.

mac

 

[Pheisty]

While I agree with some of what you say, I think there is a bigger issue here. That is people are willing to talk about doing something and then, Not do it! First The vendors refuse to organize themselves and would rather bicker with each other than get together and do something, even though it's their businesses at stake. I almost get the feeling the vendors are out for as much money as they can get while they can get it.

Second we as a community talk about the need to do something and show are anger here on a forum only WE read. That's not helpful. The CASAA is active, but that's not enough. If we really care about these things we need to all be voicing that everywhere we can.

Let's face it President Obama weather you voted for him or not became President because of basically having a grass root movement. Nobody had given him a shot and many were negative about the prospect of him winning. But he changed public opinion. That is what we have to do. Right now, it is against us, but public opinion sways like the wind. If we put in the effort we can change it. We just actually need to put in some effort.

I'm afraid at this moment it is sorely lacking in that department.

Is that what unions and the mainstream media are called now? 'Grassroots movements'? Must have missed that.

That aside, I find it ironic that people don't see that the entire reason why we're having this discussion is because of big government. And I'm not just blaming the Democrats and Obama, either. Bush and plenty of Republicans grew government, as well.

If you want to start a 'grassroots movement' of getting the government out of your lives (after all, isn't that what we're talking about here?) start a movement that centers on that premise. Oh, snap! There already is one...it's called the Tea Party.

Instead of wasting your efforts on trying to get an 'Vaping Revolution" going, why don't you stand up against every facet of government creeping into your lives instead of just the one thing you happen to hold dear? This isn't just about e-cigs. This is about us losing more and more of our individual life choices to an ever-mutating and growing monster of a government.

The thing that makes me sound like a defeatist is the fact that people don't see the bigger picture of individual liberties as the center of this entire debate. All they see is their own personal discomfort if e-cigs are banned, so they think they can win on debating the issue alone. You can't, and that was my point to start with (EDIT and correction: That was what was running through my ADD brain when I was typing up my first post this morning, but it definitely didn't come out that way). It can't just be an 'Vaper Grassroots Movement'. It needs to be a FREEDOM grassroots movement.

 

[jtcaseyjr]

Is that what unions and the mainstream media are called now? 'Grassroots movements'? Must have missed that.

That aside, I find it ironic that people don't see that the entire reason why we're having this discussion is because of big government. And I'm not just blaming the Democrats and Obama, either. Bush and plenty of Republicans grew government, as well.

If you want to start a 'grassroots movement' of getting the government out of your lives (after all, isn't that what we're talking about here?) start a movement that centers on that premise. Oh, snap! There already is one...it's called the Tea Party.

Instead of wasting your efforts on trying to get an 'Vaping Revolution" going, why don't you stand up against every facet of government creeping into your lives instead of just the one thing you happen to hold dear? This isn't just about e-cigs. This is about us losing more and more of our individual life choices to an ever-mutating and growing monster of a government.

The thing that makes me sound like a defeatist is the fact that people don't see the bigger picture of individual liberties as the center of this entire debate. All they see is their own personal discomfort if e-cigs are banned, so they think they can win on debating the issue alone. You can't, and that was my point to start with (EDIT and correction: That was what was running through my ADD brain when I was typing up my first post this morning, but it definitely didn't come out that way). It can't just be an 'Vaper Grassroots Movement'. It needs to be a FREEDOM grassroots movement.

WOW you said a mouthful there First I wasn't defending Obama just so you know, By the way the unions and media didn't jump on board with Obama until After he started making waves..they thought Hiliary had the Democratic nomination in the bag. So yeah it was a grassroots movement to start with. I'm not a democrat or republican, I am Independent when it comes to politics. I agree with you there is a bigger issue. However if we can't get motivated on small issues, how do you purpose we get motivated on the bigger issues.

There is a scary movement in this country I noticed and all of us fall into the group at one point or another and that is, the do nothing movement. Yeah we will moan and groan, maybe even yell a little here and there. But at the end of the day we feel powerless, so we do nothing.

While I am not sure about the Tea party as the answer, I do know the movement is making waves and scaring some politicians, which is good we need to keep them on their toes. But we need a bigger movement. If you have ever seen the movie Network , It's time we ALL start saying "I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE"

One of my favorite videos I have seen on youtube says this WAY better then I can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA

 

[PoliticallyIncorrect]

I'm sorry to see this thread devolve into a vehicle by which to slam the politics of one's disapproval. Some tangible good might have come of it.

 

[jtcaseyjr]

I'm sorry to see this thread devolve into a vehicle by which to slam the politics of one's disapproval. Some tangible good might have come of it.

Wasn't going for that. However just talking about this alone, Vaping that is. I don't see much motivation from the general community. There are a few on here, but the general consenus seems to me, "Well let's vape while we can and we'll figure out the rest later."

 

[DC2]

Wasn't going for that. However just talking about this alone, Vaping that is. I don't see much motivation from the general community. There are a few on here, but the general consenus seems to me, "Well let's vape while we can and we'll figure out the rest later."

I've almost given up on getting people to care enough to do something other than give up.
I guess that is why new blood is good, so please, carry on exactly the way you are.

It appears, from the various state bans that our membership have been able to defeat, that we can make a big difference if we try.
I'm really not clear on why so many people don't even seem to realize that.
And that is with only a handful of us even trying.

Imagine if we could get a lot more people to try, but yeah, it sure doesn't seem to be easy.
And you'd think something that is saving people's lives would get them motivated.

 

[PoliticallyIncorrect]

I've almost given up on getting people to care enough to do something other than give up.
I guess that is why new blood is good, so please, carry on exactly the way you are.

It appears, from the various state bans that our membership have been able to defeat, that we can make a big difference if we try.
I'm really not clear on why so many people don't even seem to realize that.
And that is with only a handful of us even trying.

Imagine if we could get a lot more people to try, but yeah, it sure doesn't seem to be easy.
And you'd think something that is saving people's lives would get them motivated.

...And then, suddenly, the thread began to breath again.

So now what, guys? The gloom-and-doom cynics may be a bore, but on one point they have a point: we're vaping on borrowed time.

 

[Bfly]

Ban us yea ok Np........But stop us think not....

 

[Pheisty]

WOW you said a mouthful there First I wasn't defending Obama just so you know, By the way the unions and media didn't jump on board with Obama until After he started making waves..they thought Hiliary had the Democratic nomination in the bag. So yeah it was a grassroots movement to start with. I'm not a democrat or republican, I am Independent when it comes to politics. I agree with you there is a bigger issue. However if we can't get motivated on small issues, how do you purpose we get motivated on the bigger issues.

There is a scary movement in this country I noticed and all of us fall into the group at one point or another and that is, the do nothing movement. Yeah we will moan and groan, maybe even yell a little here and there. But at the end of the day we feel powerless, so we do nothing.

While I am not sure about the Tea party as the answer, I do know the movement is making waves and scaring some politicians, which is good we need to keep them on their toes. But we need a bigger movement. If you have ever seen the movie Network , It's time we ALL start saying "I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE"

One of my favorite videos I have seen on youtube says this WAY better then I can: YouTube - We The People Stimulus Package

YES!!! Agree, on all counts.

I've been politically active my entire life (no kidding--started when I was in the 5th grade), and I lean heavily toward the libertarian side. My views are less government, more freedom. Let me do what I want as long as I'm not harming anyone (and don't try to stop me from harming myself...if I want to harm myself, I should be allowed), let me keep more of what I earn, and save government for things like military, cops, roads and bridges, and the justice system. Mostly though, I just want them to leave me the hell alone. Not too much to ask.

Unfortunately, this all started with seatbelt legislation. That began the paternalistic (or Nanny State, as I like to call it) "Government cares about you, so we're going to make it illegal for you to put yourself in harm's way" crap. The argument was, "Well, it's costing insurance companies (and thus, all of us, or so the argument goes) so much when someone gets into an auto accident because people are being harmed more when they don't choose to wear seatbelts". Really? Well then why don't we slap chastity belts on everyone who isn't married? Illegitimacy costs us MUCH more than people not wearing seatbelts...in many, many ways.

Of course I'm being facetious, but you see the ridiculous ways these politicians and lobbyists get this stuff passed. Smoking bans were passed based upon the flawed premise that people were "dying" from secondhand smoke...even though people had the choice to enter an establishment that allowed smoking, or not. And it was all done under the guise of "Government cares about you".

The same goes with e-cigs. Once we allowed the government to tell us that we had to wear seatbelts or motorcycle helmets, we pierced the veil. We allowed them to use the argument that they care about us and therefore can, by the end of a gun, tell us that we don't have the choice of putting ourselves in harms way if we felt like it. Well, I--like the rest of you--are taking our chances with vaping. Yes, it's true, we don't know precisely what we're putting into our lungs, but it's our right to do it. And the hypocrisy of keeping cigarettes legal while at the same time telling us that they care so much about us simply exposes their real agenda: Control.

Okay. Done with my rants for the evening. lol Sorry, but this is what it all comes back to, folks. Wish it were just as simple as bonding together and creating a vaping revolution, but the problem goes much deeper than that.

 

[Pheisty]

I'm sorry to see this thread devolve into a vehicle by which to slam the politics of one's disapproval. Some tangible good might have come of it.

Tangible good will only come when people realize that this isn't about e-cigs...it's about the Nanny State encroaching on our personal liberties. If you can't see that, then you're part of the problem. It's amazing to me how people don't get active when someone else's freedoms and choices are being threatened, but the moment theirs are, they suddenly become interested and active, but only by focusing on their freedoms that are threatened. Our government can't be held accountable if we operate this way. We have to stand up for ALL rights, not just those we personally are affected by.

I know a preacher with lung disease who never smoked, but at the same time stood with me against the smoking bans in Wisconsin because he saw them as an infringement on property rights. HE got it. He knew that if gov't could step in and tell a tavern owner that they couldn't allow a legal act on their privately-owned property, his property rights were also degraded. This is a person who could literally die if he inhaled too much secondhand smoke.

Okay, now that I've completely killed this thread, I'm going to bed.

 

[HighHeeledGoddess]

The defeatist attitude comes from the draconian legislation we've already been subjected to. Think about why most of us are here - other than health reasons we're here because of smoking bans, and taxes. We've already been forced out of restaurants, bars, and even our own homes and vehicles in some areas as smokers. We already experienced the general public demonizing us, and legislators who don't give a care.

I'm going to do what I can do to stop from being victimized again, but I'm also going to be realistic and hoard as much as I can.

 

[PoliticallyIncorrect]

Tangible good will only come when people realize that this isn't about e-cigs...it's about the Nanny State encroaching on our personal liberties. If you can't see that, then you're part of the problem.

When the vaping community fragments into political factions, each identifying the other as the problem, i.e., the enemy, what follows is certain defeat. The FDA and all it implies--ignorance, knee-jerk reactionaryism at the appearance of smoke where there's no fire--will conquer at its leisure, because we've disintegrated into easy roadkill, bite-sized divisions to be cooked and eaten piecemeal. The rights and freedoms of individuals become a quaint puff of vapor that dissapates unnoticed.

I may have little else in common with Idaho Panhandle vapers other than vaping, but I need them. I hope they understand that they need me.

 

[kristin]

I just googled CASAA and got hits for Casa Vieja and others not hit on their site.
I will try to find them the hard way and explain what meta data is. If you cannot google them and get a hit then they are way under the radar.

Not only is CASAA #1 on Google for "casaa" we are hitting the radar. TobaccoHarmreduction.org just emntioned CASAA as a "reputable source" for e-cigarette facts and the media is starting to contact us for stories, as well.

Who else is out there for the people who don't like the CASAA? Is it just the ECA as an alternative?

Can I ask why people wouldn't "like the CASAA?" To answer your question, there is also the Natiuonal Vapers Club.

I was thinking about this thread when I was offline, and I quote the above line because it fits in with what I was thinking. It occurred to me that this is really the crux of the matter. The FDA and other bodies are studying the ecig as a device for delivering nicotine.

It's not that it delivers nicotine. It's the intended use for that nicotine. Is it used as a recreational source of nicotine and an alternative for tobacco cigarettes or is it a treatment for nicotine addiction. Even if it contained no nicotine, if the companies claim (or post testimonials) that it can help you quit smoking, the FDA considers it a nicotine cessation treatment,will call it a "treatment" and will require scientific studies before it can be sold.

Sorry, but this is what it all comes back to, folks. Wish it were just as simple as bonding together and creating a vaping revolution, but the problem goes much deeper than that.

Except that the reason the nannies were able to create all of these rules for the rest of us is because they bonded together and created a "public health" revolution.

Nearly every person who is politically active had a "flashpoint" that got them started. For most of us here, it's e-cigarettes. The experience with e-cigarettes opens a lot of eyes to government regulation in general. Encourage people to keep fighting for e-cigarettes and it won't stop there for a lot of people. It completely changed my political outlook and turned me into an activist. I now watch the news reports with much more skepticism. But it started with something personal.

 

[Pheisty]

Except that the reason the nannies were able to create all of these rules for the rest of us is because they bonded together and created a "public health" revolution.

Nearly every person who is politically active had a "flashpoint" that got them started. For most of us here, it's e-cigarettes. The experience with e-cigarettes opens a lot of eyes to government regulation in general. Encourage people to keep fighting for e-cigarettes and it won't stop there for a lot of people. It completely changed my political outlook and turned me into an activist. I now watch the news reports with much more skepticism. But it started with something personal.

Fair enough. You are correct. I guess after 25 years of activism (I've always cared about preserving and restoring individual liberties...not just when mine were affected) I've become angry and yes, a little jaded. I've been screaming at the top of my lungs for years about this very thing (not e-cigs, obviously, but the nanny state, etc), and I guess I'm just ...... off that Americans haven't realized what they had in liberty until it was taken away.

My apologies, but I'm sure you can understand. Complacency is one of my biggest pet peeves.

Of course I'll stand with each and every one of you to fight for our right to vape. How could I not? It's in my being to fight.