Time to get serious about the fight.

[nuclearbroccoli]

I've been putting a lot of thought into this recently, and I think it's about time to start a Canadian focused group to fight Health Canada. A petition is good, and CASAA is also good, but I don't think either one of them is going to get things to where they need to be.

So, since nobody else seems to want to start anything, I've decided that I will. Nothing big to start, but I'm thinking a about a structure a little easier to manage than CASAA. ie no official leadership hierarchy. Why? Simply because it's harder to get people who have a substantial amount of time to put towards the cause.

What I'm looking for ideally, is 6 other people to join me to form a 7 person board to start. The only real purpose of this board is to manage a webpage and moderate a member forum, keep things updated, and to organize members. I'm willing to start designing a webpage (Yes, it will be a free Google page unless someone out there has some server space and can design a webpage for free) with links to a forum for members, probably hosted on another site. It's not ideal, but it will work to start.

I only have 3 requirements of anyone who wants to help if I'm going to do this:
1) You must be serious and committed.
2) You must be willing to commit at least a few hours a week toward whatever we need to get done, and an hour for a weekly or biweekly (to be decided later) meeting.
3) With the exception of 1 of the 7 members, you can NOT be a vendor, though vendors are welcome to join as members and contribute. No offence intended, but while there are fantastic vendors out there who feel strongly about this product, it can not appear that it is being organized and run by those with monetary interests in the outcome. This can hurt the credibility of anything we do.
Details obviously need to be worked out first, and it will take a couple of weeks to get going, but someone has got to do something already.
Just for the record though, I have no issues with working with CASAA. I just feel we need something more focused on the Canadian side of things.

I'll tell you guys straight up right now, I'm not a good public speaker, nor am I an internet whiz (though I manage well enough), nor am I swimming in free time, but I do want to do something about this.

If anyone is interested, PM me, and once we get a few people on board we can figure out the specifics of where to go with it.

 

[kanadiankat]

Have to say - I think it's a fabulous idea.

Even better that vendors not be directly involved - you're right - it's hard to make a political stand on something when it appears that there is monetary gain. There are very significant differences between how vendors need to approach the situation and how vapers - looking towards their rights - need to approach this.

(on the other hand - that does work for BT and BP.... but it's not very honest)

Good luck.

 

[mopar]

cricket chirp, cricket chirp why I just give $ to the casaa we've tried this before unsuccessfully many times. If it at all looks like it won't just be me and you fighting let me know and I can contribute resources.

 

[kanadiankat]

.... hmmm... why not ask CASSAA if they would help create a uniquely Canadian entity.

Maybe a letter explaining how significantly different our laws are, our population is and see where that goes.

If they're willing to co sponsor a separate Canadian only CASSAA - it would take away some of the duplication and save a bit of time.

...just saying... could be worth the asking. ....

 

[nuclearbroccoli]

That's maybe something worth discussing.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

.... hmmm... why not ask CASSAA if they would help create a uniquely Canadian entity.

Maybe a letter explaining how significantly different our laws are, our population is and see where that goes.

If they're willing to co sponsor a separate Canadian only CASSAA - it would take away some of the duplication and save a bit of time.

...just saying... could be worth the asking. ....

Pipeous attempted this a few months ago and he's now quit vaping so I would imagine he's no longer active?
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/canada-forum/190286-canadian-casaa.html
It's a great idea but there's lots of work involved and I wish you the best of luck and will support you in any way possible. It's a good idea to align with other groups as it saves an enormous amount of time researching and although CASAA is U.S. based they have a blueprint so to speak.
Some other groups you may wish to contact:
Right To Vape Forum - Index- Right To Vape Forum
Welcome to ECITA - The Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association
Also have a good friend whom I met through an activist org that is very close friends with a very well known actor who uses Ecigs. He's away in Europe for 6? months but I will contact him and see what transpires.

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

I'm all for it... the problem is people get all fired up for a few days, a few weeks and then they dissapear... i was involved in a project several months back... fizzled out.

If you can pull together the 6 others who are actually wiling to give it a real effort and not just quit after a few weeks, then count me as your 7th... I am a member of CASAA and i think that the two can work hand in hand and we can probably, if we approach them, use them as a resourse and a guide as we set up... mebbe as a sister/daughter organization... separate but still tied to CASAA?

 

[CanadaLady]

Just bumping this up.... Let's get serious Canada!

 

[nuclearbroccoli]

Thanks to everyone who posted, but to everyone else: You are using a product that could easily become completely unavailable if Health Canada decides to step up enforcement, and nobody wants to help?
What do the rest of you plan to do if that happens? Go back to analogs? Hang around dark alleys downtown asking drug dealers if they have any Juicyclear Mental Menthol and a 510 atomizer?

Last I checked, the stats say that over 37,000 Canadians die every year due to tobacco related illnesses.
Doing nothing is helping Health Canada kill people.

/rant

 

[NoizMaker]

This IS an awesome idea and I fully support it. I wish I could have helped things along faster and done something like this myself but, as I stated in my other thread before, my life just hasn't been stable enough to push ahead with this atm. We all deserve to take a stand and many of us here on this forum have been giving it the good old college try but what halts us in our tracks is almost always the money involved with fighting.

Health Canada has a very specific way of doing things; They have classified these devices as medical when used with nicotine and not much more than a toy if used without. The former requires a LOT of money to accomplish their market authorization and that's pretty much where it stands.

Who wants to be the one to drop $300 000 to $??? on this process and who can afford the risk? We do have the law on our side so to speak as it is completely legal for Nicotine Inhalers delivering 4 mg or nicotine or less in a dose but since E-Cigarettes are "new technology" and "the law wasn't made in anticipation of e-cigarettes" HC is demanding more. I'm fairly certain that Nicorette would have had to pay this price to have their products put on the shelves, but they were/ are a much larger company than any vendor we have here right now.

Now, I'm not saying this can't be done, nor could we possibly find alternate routes to take (like trying to label them as Tobacco Products like the USA did and accept the fact that we will have to buy this stuff in head shops and have to deal with the same laws about using them in public places, for example) but either way is going to take a rather large sum of money.

I would love to see us all finally accomplish something though... I know I sure haven't been able to. A petition is merely but a decent start in to-days world and I didn't expect it to rock the governments world per se. I had hoped it would merely start the ball rolling and I believe it accomplished just that. Keep in mind also that this was before HC really clamped down on the market.

I would love to say "I'm in, when can I start" but sadly can't right now, maybe once I have everything sorted out a bit more and things are a LOT more secure in my own personal life.

 

[nuclearbroccoli]

This IS an awesome idea and I fully support it. I wish I could have helped things along faster and done something like this myself but, as I stated in my other thread before, my life just hasn't been stable enough to push ahead with this atm. We all deserve to take a stand and many of us here on this forum have been giving it the good old college try but what halts us in our tracks is almost always the money involved with fighting.

Health Canada has a very specific way of doing things; They have classified these devices as medical when used with nicotine and not much more than a toy if used without. The former requires a LOT of money to accomplish their market authorization and that's pretty much where it stands.

Who wants to be the one to drop $300 000 to $??? on this process and who can afford the risk? We do have the law on our side so to speak as it is completely legal for Nicotine Inhalers delivering 4 mg or nicotine or less in a dose but since E-Cigarettes are "new technology" and "the law wasn't made in anticipation of e-cigarettes" HC is demanding more. I'm fairly certain that Nicorette would have had to pay this price to have their products put on the shelves, but they were/ are a much larger company than any vendor we have here right now.

Now, I'm not saying this can't be done, nor could we possibly find alternate routes to take (like trying to label them as Tobacco Products like the USA did and accept the fact that we will have to buy this stuff in head shops and have to deal with the same laws about using them in public places, for example) but either way is going to take a rather large sum of money.

I would love to see us all finally accomplish something though... I know I sure haven't been able to. A petition is merely but a decent start in to-days world and I didn't expect it to rock the governments world per se. I had hoped it would merely start the ball rolling and I believe it accomplished just that. Keep in mind also that this was before HC really clamped down on the market.

I would love to say "I'm in, when can I start" but sadly can't right now, maybe once I have everything sorted out a bit more and things are a LOT more secure in my own personal life.

Well, since electronic cigarettes can be used with nic free liquid, I'm thinking the first step is to try to get the hardware reclassified as just an electronic device, rather than a medical device. I think there is a good argument there for reclassification. That would make it substantially cheaper to get approval for the hardware as it takes it out of Health Canada's hands.

After that, we can fight for the nic juice itself.

 

[kanadiankat]

Well, since electronic cigarettes can be used with nic free liquid, I'm thinking the first step is to try to get the hardware reclassified as just an electronic device, rather than a medical device. I think there is a good argument there for reclassification. That would make it substantially cheaper to get approval for the hardware as it takes it out of Health Canada's hands.

After that, we can fight for the nic juice itself.

Just thought I'd chime in here a bit and see if I can help.

For vapers to try and take on Health Canada is - as Noizemaker stated - a pretty big undertaking and likely not one that will be successful. Even if every vaper contributed and took Health Canada to court and won - they could simply create another "category" for ecigs and nic liquid and start the whole problem all over again.

It's up to vendors to take up that particular fight - because regulatory frameworks are not created by product consumers.

One fight that can be taken on though - and is within the reach of all vapers - is to petition your local MP's and parliament to recognize this as a product that people have the right to choose to use. It's actually an important step - because it could lead to pressure to compel Health Canada to work with stakeholders to bring a real framework into existence.

It's not a short road, so the first steps can be daunting and uncertain. Some have already been taken. There are facebook pages, threads in this a petition (started by Noizemaker at the beginning of the year), and some people who have contacted their MP's.

If these efforts could be brought together - they may bring a louder voice to the table.

With politicians - the louder the voice - the more they'll listen. Keeping in mind that MP's are elected and if an issue will not significantly effect their re-election - there's not much incentive to take it up.

The steps taken in the US have been very different - their political system is also very different Here - you have to shout loud and long and with many voices to gain even mediocre attention in a public forum and earn the ears of Ottawa.

There are several activists in Canada. Some take too much of the cause on themselves though - burning bright - but burning out long before making real waves.

The most successful forward march will be one where a huge number of people are involved - and the amount of work that each does is reasonable, comfortable and never at burn out level (ie: each person makes 2 phone calls, writes 2 letters and attends 1 meeting - that kind of thing.)

Hope this helps.

 

[nuclearbroccoli]

Just thought I'd chime in here a bit and see if I can help.

For vapers to try and take on Health Canada is - as Noizemaker stated - a pretty big undertaking and likely not one that will be successful. Even if every vaper contributed and took Health Canada to court and won - they could simply create another "category" for ecigs and nic liquid and start the whole problem all over again.

It's up to vendors to take up that particular fight - because regulatory frameworks are not created by product consumers.

One fight that can be taken on though - and is within the reach of all vapers - is to petition your local MP's and parliament to recognize this as a product that people have the right to choose to use. It's actually an important step - because it could lead to pressure to compel Health Canada to work with stakeholders to bring a real framework into existence.

It's not a short road, so the first steps can be daunting and uncertain. Some have already been taken. There are facebook pages, threads in this a petition (started by Noizemaker at the beginning of the year), and some people who have contacted their MP's.

If these efforts could be brought together - they may bring a louder voice to the table.

With politicians - the louder the voice - the more they'll listen. Keeping in mind that MP's are elected and if an issue will not significantly effect their re-election - there's not much incentive to take it up.

The steps taken in the US have been very different - their political system is also very different Here - you have to shout loud and long and with many voices to gain even mediocre attention in a public forum and earn the ears of Ottawa.

There are several activists in Canada. Some take too much of the cause on themselves though - burning bright - but burning out long before making real waves.

The most successful forward march will be one where a huge number of people are involved - and the amount of work that each does is reasonable, comfortable and never at burn out level (ie: each person makes 2 phone calls, writes 2 letters and attends 1 meeting - that kind of thing.)

Hope this helps.

That's the while point of starting a group - so that we can do this in an organized, focused manner without having to give up all our spare time.

 

[Pipeous]

Yes, join casaa. Talk to them about a Canadian Version. There are good people over ther that will provide some insight to help, but as they told me, our problems in Canada are unique to us and they had no plans on learning our laws and taking on our fight, as they have enough to battle themselves in their own country.

I am considering a new web server and could probably provide some space for a site and/or forum. Right now I use my personal web space (free) from my isp to host my files and just pay $18/yr for my name and have it forwarded to my site. I want to create a new site for my music production.

that said there are places to get free forums and could easily have that open in a frame on the main page.

 

[nuclearbroccoli]

There are good people over ther that will provide some insight to help, but as they told me, our problems in Canada are unique to us and they had no plans on learning our laws and taking on our fight, as they have enough to battle themselves in their own country.

Exactly the problem. It's going to be up to us Canadians to fight our own battle.
I realize that it's not as simple as fighting HC on a single part of the issue, but we do need to fight if we want to continue vaping and if we want it to be available to others in the future.

HC's classifications need to be fought because there just aren't enough customers in Canada to make the current cost of getting market authorization feasible. Unless some vendor in Canada wins Lotto 649, I don't see this happening.

HC's attitude towards ecigs needs to be changed because they are still in the mindset of "nicotine bad - all people must stop using nicotine or die". This is wrong. Period.

We also need to promote ecigs and encourage smokers to switch over to increase the number of users in order to put more pressure on HC to change their stance on this product.

One way or another, I'm going to do something, even if I have to start this on my own. I'd rather have a group that can split the work and can help set things up, but so far it's not looking good. If anyone does want to get involved, the offer is always open. I'll bump this thread every few days to keep it active in case someone who hasn't seen this before wants to join.

Anyway, I'm going to start work on a webpage as soon as I can come up with a useable name. I'm not big on the idea of adopting CASAAs name as I personally find the acronym a little awkward. CASAAC? Who is even going to remember that?
If anyone has a better idea for a group name with a decent acronym that is easier for people to remember or pronounceable, feel free to post a suggestion in this thread.

 

[nuclearbroccoli]

Name opinions?

Citizens
Opposed (to the)
Restrictions (on)
Electronic cigarettes -------- or ecigs.

CORE seems to be a viable acronym. Everything else I can come up with is unpronounceable (and therefore hard to remember), or just stupid sounding.

Any opinions on this?

 

[FunkyVapes]

Thanks to everyone who posted, but to everyone else: You are using a product that could easily become completely unavailable if Health Canada decides to step up enforcement, and nobody wants to help?
What do the rest of you plan to do if that happens? Go back to analogs? Hang around dark alleys downtown asking drug dealers if they have any Juicyclear Mental Menthol and a 510 atomizer?

Last I checked, the stats say that over 37,000 Canadians die every year due to tobacco related illnesses.
Doing nothing is helping Health Canada kill people.

/rant

For any movement or petition to be successful, it must have a unified and distinct voice. This ensures that our goals are clearly communicated and will keep any misinterpretations to a minimum.

I'd be interested in contributing my time, and my experience with rhetorical public speaking and writing, as I am very proficient in both. However, if the above is an example of our "single voice", you'll have to count me out.

While humorous, this kind of reasoning is fallacious and besides the point. We have to formulate an argument based on logic and framed in our rights as Canadians; nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

I too have been in a couple groups that have "fizzled out" and they usually did so because of internal arguments and lack of unity.

 

[nuclearbroccoli]

For any movement or petition to be successful, it must have a unified and distinct voice. This ensures that our goals are clearly communicated and will keep any misinterpretations to a minimum.

I'd be interested in contributing my time, and my experience with rhetorical public speaking and writing, as I am very proficient in both. However, if the above is an example of our "single voice", you'll have to count me out.

While humorous, this kind of reasoning is fallacious and besides the point. We have to formulate an argument based on logic and framed in our rights as Canadians; nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

I too have been in a couple groups that have "fizzled out" and they usually did so because of internal arguments and lack of unity.

I understand what you're saying, but I was exaggerating to make a point. Obviously we won't be buying 510 parts in back alleys, and Health Canada is not doing this because they want to kill smokers. However, the way they are handling this, and their classification of e-cigs is not helping the situation any.
The point I was trying to make is that Health Canada could easily begin enforcing their ban, leaving those of us who vape with nothing but ineffectual quitting aids or returning to analogs, and most people don't seem to care enough to actually do something about it which I just find kind of sad.

My issue with HC is that based on everything we know about e-cigs, they are relatively safe compared to smoking tobacco, yet they are unwilling to commit any resources towards it. Instead, they try to ban them, and expect the manufacturers and vendors to prove to them that they are safe at great expense. Meanwhile, tobacco is still legal. That is an insane stance, and makes no sense at all unless....

unless Health Canada is afraid of undoing all the work they have done to paint smokers as deviants...
See, unlike many people (and you are all entitled to your opinions of course), I don't actually believe that Health Canada is opposing e-cigs because of the tobacco companies and the revenue generated from the sale of tobacco. They are after all, health professionals, and I'm sure they are trying to look out for us.
However, they have spent years telling us that smoking AND smokers are bad. For them to support a product that allows smokers to keep their addiction to nicotine, and keep participating in an activity that resembles smoking, completely undermines their strategy to get smokers to quit. I truly believe that they are looking at it from the viewpoint that they don't want anyone addicted to nicotine in any way, shape, or form, and intend to discourage anything that does not work with that vision. The problem is of course, that they are dreaming. That is not how things work in the real world.

Anyway, the point of this post was to explain that I'm not a "conspiracy nut", and in no way would I consider making any sort of exaggeration in any sort of official correspondence with Health Canada. I was simply frustrated, and trying to make a point to the users of this forum.
As for the group, I'm not looking to dictate to a group what our strategy should be, and I should be clear about my intentions here. I feel that the direction the group takes should be decided by a vote of the group leaders with the input of any members. I have no intentions of trying to control the group. The only reason I alone decided on the requirements for group leadership is because I felt that they were important in order for the group to be taken seriously, and was not willing to be part of any group that disagreed with that.

 

[FunkyVapes]

I understand what you're saying, but I was exaggerating to make a point. Obviously we won't be buying 510 parts in back alleys, and Health Canada is not doing this because they want to kill smokers. However, the way they are handling this, and their classification of e-cigs is not helping the situation any.
The point I was trying to make is that Health Canada could easily begin enforcing their ban, leaving those of us who vape with nothing but ineffectual quitting aids or returning to analogs, and most people don't seem to care enough to actually do something about it which I just find kind of sad.

My issue with HC is that based on everything we know about e-cigs, they are relatively safe compared to smoking tobacco, yet they are unwilling to commit any resources towards it. Instead, they try to ban them, and expect the manufacturers and vendors to prove to them that they are safe at great expense. Meanwhile, tobacco is still legal. That is an insane stance, and makes no sense at all unless....

unless Health Canada is afraid of undoing all the work they have done to paint smokers as deviants...
See, unlike many people (and you are all entitled to your opinions of course), I don't actually believe that Health Canada is opposing e-cigs because of the tobacco companies and the revenue generated from the sale of tobacco. They are after all, health professionals, and I'm sure they are trying to look out for us.
However, they have spent years telling us that smoking AND smokers are bad. For them to support a product that allows smokers to keep their addiction to nicotine, and keep participating in an activity that resembles smoking, completely undermines their strategy to get smokers to quit. I truly believe that they are looking at it from the viewpoint that they don't want anyone addicted to nicotine in any way, shape, or form, and intend to discourage anything that does not work with that vision. The problem is of course, that they are dreaming. That is not how things work in the real world.

Anyway, the point of this post was to explain that I'm not a "conspiracy nut", and in no way would I consider making any sort of exaggeration in any sort of official correspondence with Health Canada. I was simply frustrated, and trying to make a point to the users of this forum.
As for the group, I'm not looking to dictate to a group what our strategy should be, and I should be clear about my intentions here. I feel that the direction the group takes should be decided by a vote of the group leaders with the input of any members. I have no intentions of trying to control the group. The only reason I alone decided on the requirements for group leadership is because I felt that they were important in order for the group to be taken seriously, and was not willing to be part of any group that disagreed with that.

I know dude,

I really liked the portrait you painted, I just wanted to be clear that we need a unified voice. My post came off rather arrogant and that wasn't my intention. Like I said, I have been part of these groups before and sunk a ton of time into them, only to see them dissolved with petty arguing and inactivity. I hope you'll keep me posted and consider me dedicated as this progresses.

Best of luck,

Charlie

 

[kalvinf]

I know this is way off the track here, but what about alternative approaches, like organize a group and approach a well know music act to aquaint them with the plight of vapers and see if there is any willingness to write a song that illuminates the problem to the public fan base. Musicians are well known for taking on social and political issues with direct snubbing of politicians (or thereabouts).

Maybe there is some viable alternatives to cosider. When gays wanted acceptance what did they do, have parades and do that every year - showing people they are just people in an entertaining way.

As vapers we are regular people that are trying to work the political ropes to take on Health Canada. HC is an arm of the government and are in their element and very political savvy and to fight them on their home ground seems to be the very definition of daunting.

I don't know, maybe the slow and labourous path of forging political headway with small steps here and there is all that is possible. The genuine interest that people have when they see a vaper for the first time, or the ease of converting smokers to vaping has energy in it and should be harnessed in some way that tips the balance away from HC in an arena that HC isn't holding all the cards.