Tobacco absolute, which one, and where?

[wetclay]

I feel my tobacco mixes, including NETs, are still lacking something. Maybe it's time to give TA a try. Problem is I'm not sure which TA to buy. ECX has a 100% one that I ordered. But I remember reading some posts recommending the Rustica TA.
Only stocked source I could find for a Rustica is :
Tobacco Absolute – Perfumer Supply House
Is this the one?
The specs sheet says there is some residual ethanol (OK) and toluene (is this fine though)?

 

[BrotherBob]

some residual ethanol (OK) and toluene

I would question any Toluene in my e liquid.
Could check out for high end TA if thats' your thing:
Search Results for Query: Samara Botane | E-Cigarette Forum
Nothing wrong with ECX's TA's though. Some TA's have an ashy taste and some don't. It all depends on what your looking for. Some flavor mimic TA like:
Inawera's DNB/Dirty Neutral Base "tobacco DNB FLAVOUR".
Tobacco Absolute Cuban Cigar (WG-INW)

Tobacco Absolute Garuda (WG-INW)
Tobacco Absolute Oriental (WG-INW)
Tobacco Absolute Virginia (WG-INW)
Some bases with/without PB,VG,ethanol etc...
Could tell us more as to what exactly are you looking for.

 

[wetclay]

I would question any Toluene in my e liquid.
Could check out for high end TA if thats' your thing:
Search Results for Query: Samara Botane | E-Cigarette Forum
Nothing wrong with ECX's TA's though. Some TA's have an ashy taste and some don't. It all depends on what your looking for. Some flavor mimic TA like:

Do you mean to say they are not real TA (diluted)?. I tried them all, except for the virginia, and found they add very little flavor except for DNB which gives an ashy hint.

Some bases with/without PB,VG,ethanol etc...

Could tell us more as to what exactly are you looking for.

A none/less ashy TA. I guess this would be the rustica. Who stocks that?

 

[BrotherBob]

Might want to contact Samara Botane. From my old notes: "TOBACCO ABSOLUTE: Samara Botane Aromatic Apothecary Natural and Pure Ethically Grown Tobacco Absolute (Nicotaina rustica) Absolute from Leaves from Paraguay sold in several sizes with samples available.""Due to much of what combustion offers, replicating a cigar, pipe or cigarette flavour is impossible with e-liquids. What we can do though is to mirror the flavours of a tobacco, and offer an acceptable alternative to smoke, ash and or char. We can also introduce a variety of concentrates that elevate the level of satisfaction, and for most, exceed that of which we derived from smoking. "
re: Flavours and Additives for DIY Tobacco Recipes. Building a Tobacco Base

 

[Str8vision]

I've been extracting flavor from tobacco in order to make NETs since 2012 and experimented with making Tobacco Absolutes (TA).

TA is made by reducing (concentrating) tobacco extract down to its "absolute" form (>95% reduction). Because its primarily manufactured for the perfume industry, commercially available TA is not made with flavor or purity in mind. Easy to evaporate, alcohol is the solvent of choice for this endeavor however some commercially available TA is made using less expensive toxic solvents (such as toluene) because the end product isn't/wasn't intended for ingestion/consumption. TA contains natural oils and impurities that are extracted from the tobacco (as does many NETS that are made from tobacco extract).

Some e-liquids that claim to have Naturally Extracted Tobacco (NET) flavoring are actually made from commercially sourced TA.

What I found is when you reduce tobacco extract down to its absolute form many of its flavor nuances are lost (especially higher flavor notes) resulting in a rather "generic" tobacco flavor. Not a bad flavor, but nowhere near as complex and rounded as what the original extract provided. You -can- significantly reduce (concentrate) an extract without suffering such flavor losses but you must stop reduction far short of it becoming an "absolute" if flavor is the ultimate goal.

My advise; Stick with NETs and or tobacco extracts that are manufactured specifically for vaping, avoid commercially available TA unless you know it was made with vaping in mind.

 

[nostradadus]

contact Samara Botane.

They don’t sell it anymore. They stopped selling it a year or so ago. It was some good stuff! But, it could be on the “bright side”.

Nicotiana Rustica Flavor notes:

As close to really fresh tobacco leaves as you can get. The flavor is somewhat light and lifting in nature and with that, hints of an earthy, musty, salty flavor coupled with a super light fruity note. There's no telling what nicotine content is in the final mix, but Samara Botane says it's somewhere around 5mg to 25mg in it's undiluted form. I've mixed it with my ususal 6mg worth of nicotine and have not felt as if I were getting an overdose of Nic in the vape.

I’ll look back at my notes and refresh my memory on who Samara said was selling the same stuff... Stay tuned.

 

[nostradadus]

Is this the one?

Indeed... that is the one I have in my notes. Good luck!

A 5g purchase will last you a VERY long time! You’ll wind up using less than .5% of a 10% dilution in any mix you create... the stuff is super strong!

 

[BrotherBob]

Who stocks that?

I would take a close look at:
Tobacco Flavorings for Home Grown Tobacco
Looks like N. rustica not available in vape liquid form.

 

[wetclay]

Indeed... that is the one I have in my notes. Good luck!

A 5g purchase will last you a VERY long time! You’ll wind up using less than .5% of a 10% dilution in any mix you create... the stuff is super strong!

Thank you! That helps.
BTW, they mention it's 9% nicotine. Higher than expected. But like you said, shouldn't affect final concentration in a juice after the repetitive dilutions it goes through.

 

[wetclay]

What I found is when you reduce tobacco extract down to its absolute form many of its flavor nuances are lost (especially higher flavor notes) resulting in a rather "generic" tobacco flavor. Not a bad flavor, but nowhere near as complex and rounded as what the original extract provided. You -can- significantly reduce (concentrate) an extract without suffering such flavor losses but you must stop reduction far short of it becoming an "absolute" if flavor is the ultimate goal.

My advise; Stick with NETs and or tobacco extracts that are manufactured specifically for vaping, avoid commercially available TA unless you know it was made with vaping in mind.

Actually, I'm planning to add TA to NETs (will add flavorings as well, fusion NETs). Although they are better than artificially flavored juice, to me they still leave something to be desired. Will try and see if TA complements them.

 

[nostradadus]

try and see if TA complements them.

Good luck on your quest! I went down the TA road for a spell... they were an enjoyable experiment and experience. However, I found that personally, my tastebuds enjoyed straight NET with no adders. Sometimes it comes down to finding that tobacco (expensive or not) which tickles your fancy. It’s so darn cheap to create your own NET extract... why not spend that $1.50 to $10 per oz of tobacco as many times as it takes to find the right tobacco for you! It’s out there @wetclay! You just have to keep searching. But, until then, trying different things is the joy of DIY NETing. I wouldn’t say “DON’T” for any reason. Enjoy your journey.

 

[wetclay]

Good luck on your quest! I went down the TA road for a spell... they were an enjoyable experiment and experience. However, I found that personally, my tastebuds enjoyed straight NET with no adders. Sometimes it comes down to finding that tobacco (expensive or not) which tickles your fancy. It’s so darn cheap to create your own NET extract... why not spend that $1.50 to $10 per oz of tobacco as many times as it takes to find the right tobacco for you! It’s out there @wetclay! You just have to keep searching. But, until then, trying different things is the joy of DIY NETing. I wouldn’t say “DON’T” for any reason. Enjoy your journey.

I did try my hand at home extractions before. The result was OK, but nothing to be proud of. OK, I didn't use the micron size filters, but otherwise followed the "standard" process for cold maceration. Commercial NETs are better, but still leave something to be desired. Can't pin point what's missing. I'm guessing adding flavorings and TA might be the next, and last, thing to try.
Who knows? I might go full circle and come back to DIY NETs like you. Anyway, commercial NETs are not sustainable (for me) at the current prices.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I've not used TA is several years. My experience was that they were cause for significant wick and coil maintenane.

I'm currently vaping max VG and high nicotine with no flavoring. PG is problematic for me. With max VG, flavorings are almost a waste. However an appropriate TA might add a bit to my otherwise bland-leaning scheme of things.

@Walter Ladd mentions that 3X Extract's are 'Crystal Clear,' but they don't seem to be a concentration anywhere near that of TA. It also seems that in vaping 3X Extract's products would involve a significant amount of PG.

Does someone know of TA-like substances that are non-gunking?

...still, I might revisit TA a bit just for experimentation in my max VG scheme of things.

...thoughts?

 

[nostradadus]

did try my hand at home extractions before. The result was OK, but nothing to be proud of... otherwise followed the "standard" process for cold maceration.

Not to derail this TA thread @wetclay... however, I’d like to ask you, what is your “standard” cold maceration method?

Perhaps, if you’re not getting a satisfactory outcome from your usual methods... it’s time to shake it up a bit. Have you experimented with a heat bump start to your macerations? I learned that a gentle warming of the maceration (4 to 8 hours @ 125 degrees F) at the genesis of the maceration, aided in the depth and boldness of the end results. This, coupled with a cool, dark cabinet steep of 1 to 6 months, has been my “go to” method for years now.

Historically, I filtered my extractions down to 2 microns... now, I halt at 8. My gut (and tastebuds), over time, told me to not be too stringent with “filtering out” all the flavor particulates. Do I need to change out my wick on a daily basis? Yup! But, it’s really no sweat off my brow. The delish flavor of my NETs far outweigh the need to change out a wick on my atomizers every day; rather a cathartic action with my coffee in the morning.

 

[wetclay]

Not to derail this TA thread @wetclay... however, I’d like to ask you, what is your “standard” cold maceration method?

Perhaps, if you’re not getting a satisfactory outcome from your usual methods... it’s time to shake it up a bit. Have you experimented with a heat bump start to your macerations? I learned that a gentle warming of the maceration (4 to 8 hours @ 125 degrees F) at the genesis of the maceration, aided in the depth and boldness of the end results. This, coupled with a cool, dark cabinet steep of 1 to 6 months, has been my “go to” method for years now.

Historically, I filtered my extractions down to 2 microns... now, I halt at 8. My gut (and tastebuds), over time, told me to not be too stringent with “filtering out” all the flavor particulates. Do I need to change out my wick on a daily basis? Yup! But, it’s really no sweat off my brow. The delish flavor of my NETs far outweigh the need to change out a wick on my atomizers every day; rather a cathartic action with my coffee in the morning.

I basically steep shredded/cut tobacco (different pipe & cigar tobaccos) in PG for 2-3 months then filter the tobacco out. Smallest filter I used was a coffee filter. I tried heating it but only for few minutes. The result was not bad I'd say. Same applies to commercial NETs. Best results I got so far is from adding flavors to NETs. That's why I want to experiment with adding TA. If this works for me, I'll start extracting my NETs as this seems more sustainable.

 

[mcclintock]

I only have used the Inawera TA's. These are well-dissolved into a liquid solution, vs. the cited stuff which is a paste. I use it as a light flavor as part of a hybrid which is my most vaped liquid. No issues whatsoever with gunking etc., but then I use only about 10 ml of the flavoring in 6 months.

The flavor includes dry hay flavor notes, and never has the sort of wet musty grass flavor of some NETs. Sort of like if you could isolate the thing that makes things taste "natural".

 

[nostradadus]

I want to experiment with adding TA. If this works for me, I'll start extracting my NETs as this seems more sustainable.

Indeed, producing your own NET is the best financial way to go; you know that already. Folks are indeed shocked/amazed when NET-heads tell them, for less than $15, we can create roughly 1000ml of ready to vape eliquid by extracting our own tobacco concentrates.

I’m glad there are vendors out there, supplying NET to folks who like/love it; hope they stay in business for a long time. However, honestly, I have no doubt in the world you can produce the same quality NET which they produce. Why? Because, the procedure you use is 99.9% the same procedure which they use. The only difference being, perhaps the big vendors employ a fancier filtering system than we do. Meh... who cares!

Back to TA. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer... but, my tastebuds always found TA to be a bit on the “dank” flavor side of things. The Nicotiana Rustica, which I purchased from Somara Botane, was the only TA which had some character. Everything else I tried, tasted like dank wet/moldy mono-flavored hay. It didn’t serve to “improve” the flavor of the liquid. Any TA I used listed as “Nicotiana Tabacum”, proved to have this outcome.

Now, all that being said... this situation was my pig, my farm. You, on the other hand, might experience something completely different in your travels. Here’s hoping you find your Holy Grail of TA’s!

 

[nostradadus]

... forgot to load this w/my post.

Tack on another $5 (at most) to the price show for 1oz of tobacco, and there’s your $15 per 1000ml of finished, ready to vape liquid.

 

[nostradadus]

Just FYI @wetclay...

 

[wetclay]

Back to TA. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer... but, my tastebuds always found TA to be a bit on the “dank” flavor side of things. The Nicotiana Rustica, which I purchased from Somara Botane, was the only TA which had some character. Everything else I tried, tasted like dank wet/moldy mono-flavored hay. It didn’t serve to “improve” the flavor of the liquid. Any TA I used listed as “Nicotiana Tabacum”, proved to have this outcome.

From what you say (and others as well), it seems the rustica TA is the one to get. I will from perfumer supply.
I think you convinced me to try my hand at extractions once more. But I have a bunch of stixx mixx concentrates on the way I have to go through first.
I might actually give N-E-T a try. Thanks for posting that. Any pipes you recommend? One weird thing about N-E-T is that buying the extract doesn't seem any cheaper than buying finished liquid.
Speaking of sales. Gremlin is listing all StixxMixx extracts for $2.5 for 15mls.
Thanks for all the handholding @nostradadus