tobacco alkaloid pill?

[ifpo238]

Hi! I'm a newbie. I posted this in the noob forum, but I'm not sure who all saw it (though I know that Kurt did).

Thought I'd repost here, for those interested:

Rock Creek is exploring processes for the extraction of alkaloids from zero-nitrosamine tobacco for the purpose of using those alkaloids in the development of a generic nicotine replacement therapy (NRT), as well as a potential non-nicotine nutraceutical product. The nutraceutical would supply a dietary supplement for adult smokers who seek to minimize nicotine craving using a non-nicotine product. These development efforts are based in part on earlier research cited as support for the patents Star Scientific previously obtained for the use of tobacco alkaloids in treating various neurological conditions, including depression.

Curtis Wright, IV, MD, MPH, Medical Director of Rock Creek, stated, "We have acquired a large body of knowledge about why people smoke, and why smokers have been so unsuccessful in multiple quit attempts. We believe an appropriate strategy involves both an over-the-counter product and a parallel dietary supplement that may be of value in minimizing nicotine cravings."

Rock Creek and Star Scientific recently have developed a prototype nutraceutical product. The prototype combines minor alkaloids of tobacco with other ingredients typical of botanical-based, dietary supplement products. Contracts for initial benchtop and animal toxicity testing have been entered into by Rock Creek. Additional toxicity testing is expected to begin in the next few months. If those testing results and consumer acceptance studies of this product are favorable, Rock Creek anticipates using the brand name CigRx(TM) when it begins its test marketing effort. During the intervening period Star Scientific will be exploring a joint venture with either a pharmaceutical company or a marketing and distribution partner in order to be in a position to achieve broad market penetration with the new nutraceutical product.

 

[Happy Domino38]

Sounds like it's right up there with the patch and gum. Without the nicotine. Hmmm, can't figure THAT claim out..

BUT, I'm sure the government will get THEIR cut from THOSE little things, won't they?

Thanks anyway, I'll stick with my e-cig, if when it's gets forced 'underground'.

 

[Kurt]

Sounds like it's right up there with the patch and gum. Without the nicotine. Hmmm, can't figure THAT claim out..

BUT, I'm sure the government will get THEIR cut from THOSE little things, won't they?

Thanks anyway, I'll stick with my e-cig, if when it's gets forced 'underground'.

The point is that tobacco contains other alkaloids that are also psychoactive, and many here find that nic is not enough. there are whole threads devoted to this, thus the popularity of smokeless products like snus when vaping is not cutting it. Personally I think it is a good idea if those alkaloids remain active after gut metabolism. Tobacco dissolvables like Stonewalls are meant to do this, but they are orally absorbed, much like snus. The other alkaloids are MAOI's and have nicotine-enhancing and antidepressant effects. The challenge is to know exactly what the dose should be, since these types of compounds have a narrow therapeutic window, and MAOI's in general can have nasty side effects...thus their relative absence in psych treatments.

They would have to know the normal dosage from smoking, liver metabolism due to gut absorption, and a whole range of neuropsych responses. But it could work, and work well. It might be a problem treating tobacco as an herb, like ginkgo or St. John's Wart, and the FDA will raise a stink over it, I predict, but it is thinking in the right direction.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Hi! I'm a newbie. I posted this in the noob forum, but I'm not sure who all saw it (though I know that Kurt did).

Thought I'd repost here, for those interested:

I saw this on the New Members Forum too, but thank you for reposting here. This is enormously important work, and I'm glad a company has figured out that it poses a business opportunity as well.

I wonder if this will be approached by the FDA as a tobacco product or as a dietary supplement.

"with other ingredients typical of a botanical-based dietary supplement..."? I hope they mean binders and fillers rather than random vitamins or other ingredients.

What they don't mention is that the other non-nicotine alkaloids, like anabasine, can act a lot like nicotine in the brain.
But what it seems like they are suggesting is that this product will make NRT more effective in smoking cessation, and I can believe that.

There are some important differences between the pharma MAOIs and the botanical MAOIs (namely reversibility and degree of MAO inhibition) that make the tobacco MAOIs less dangerous in terms of drug and dietary interactions as well as side effects. If they keep the alkaloids in their original proportions, and people don't stupidly overdose (as has happened in multiple case reports with other botanical MAOI sources), then I think there shouldn't be significant problems.

 

[Stubby]

LOL... I think DVap should get a job with Star scientific.

This really is cutting edge research. This could well be the missing pieces of the nicotine puzzle that drove many of us to smokeless tobacco (not that I'm complaining as I love the stuff). If I could get a relatively inexpensive supplement that would provide the missing alkaloids not found in nicotine gum and e-liquid that could be very interesting.

I'll be following this closely. Hopefully the FDA won't put up massive roadblocks to its development and marketing.

 

[TropicalBob]

This is only one of the products being worked on by Star Scientific's pharmaceutical division. There was a press release about three days ago on an application from Star Scientific to the FDA for a tobacco-based product to prevent Alzheimer's.

These are enormously important developments. And I'm speaking as a daily user of Star Scientific's Stonewall tobacco pellets since shortly after their introduction in 2004. Also note that RJR copied Star's curing process to use with the new Camel dissolvables, the two went to court and Star lost the first round. RJR and others with Big Tobacco and Big Pharmaceutical will, in my opinion, do all they can to put Star Scientific out of business.

Thanks for posting this newest development. I was an original tester of Dvap's whole-tobacco-alkaloid e-liquid and it worked as nothing else ever has. I spoke at length about the need to include tobacco alkaloids with the liquid maker for Totally Wicked -- did not hear back from an email -- but have hopes that at least one liquid maker will see the wisdom of using Dvap's distillation process to provide both nicotine the other important alkaloids in tobacco.

 

[Katya]

This is only one of the products being worked on by Star Scientific's pharmaceutical division. There was a press release about three days ago on an application from Star Scientific to the FDA for a tobacco-based product to prevent Alzheimer's.

These are enormously important developments. And I'm speaking as a daily user of Star Scientific's Stonewall tobacco pellets since shortly after their introduction in 2004. Also note that RJR copied Star's curing process to use with the new Camel dissolvables, the two went to court and Star lost the first round. RJR and others with Big Tobacco and Big Pharmaceutical will, in my opinion, do all they can to put Star Scientific out of business.

Thanks for posting this newest development. I was an original tester of Dvap's whole-tobacco-alkaloid e-liquid and it worked as nothing else ever has. I spoke at length about the need to include tobacco alkaloids with the liquid maker for Totally Wicked -- did not hear back from an email -- but have hopes that at least one liquid maker will see the wisdom of using Dvap's distillation process to provide both nicotine the other important alkaloids in tobacco.

Have you contacted Drew at Nhaler? He's experimenting with e-liquids and herbs. I love his lung juice. Very comforting.

I've also read somewhere that TV tobacco juice includes actual tobacco leaves. Does anybody know anything about it? Does it contain any alkaloids?

I think Star Scientific is right on the money. I use both snus and Stonewalls (thank you, Tropical Bob, for your excellent video on the subject).

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Very neat stuff if it hits the market. No doubt it would be a successful NRT where all others fail. Being one of DVap's WTA testers also, and having vaped true alkaloid laden eliquid, this stuff would make a huge difference....although I don't think we'll see it available for vapers, at least not for a long time. TB and I have had more than a few posts on the viability/probability..... It would also be a huge money-maker for whoever markets it.

 

[TropicalBob]

Katya: I haven't tried his liquids. But it's a great idea to combine herbs (and other beneficial items) to liquid. China has tried this and still sells some liquids like this.

When I need all the tobacco alkaloids, I can soak and vaporize a mini snus stuffed into my 801 cart core. It works. The flavor is great. But the process is messy until some supplier sells us ready-to-use snus cores.

 

[Katya]

Katya: I haven't tried his liquids. But it's a great idea to combine herbs (and other beneficial items) to liquid. China has tried this and still sells some liquids like this.

When I need all the tobacco alkaloids, I can soak and vaporize a mini snus stuffed into my 801 cart core. It works. The flavor is great. But the process is messy until some supplier sells us ready-to-use snus cores.

I like Drew's lung juices, they really make me feel good. They taste clean and soothing, and never leave any nasty residue in my mouth like some other "candy, bakery or coffee/soda/cocktail" flavors do. He posts all the ingredients on his website. The Green Tea Sleepy Time contains Valerian root extracts, lobelia, Reishi mushrooms, Yerba Santa. Interesting. Possible MAO inhibitors?

 

[DVap]

Hmmm.. sounds like they're looking at extracting out stonewalls (actually the low TSNA tobacco used to make Stonewalls) and getting at the good stuff.

Whether or not this stuff works well without nicotine is an interesting question. I'm not convinced that nicotine is all that addictive on it's own. Just because it's 90 - 95% of the alkaloid content doesn't mean that the other 5% is negligible... in fact, the other 5% might be the key (and from what I've been able to uncover, this wouldn't surprise me at all).

The box of Stonewalls that Vaporer sent me demonstrated the good stuff is in there, if you're willing to suck down a box of Stonewalls/day to get at enough of the minor alkaloids to make a difference. Personally, I couldn't handle it.

I've thrown around the idea of making low TSNA WTA eliquid via extraction of Stonewalls. Kinda gives me the inkling to roll up my sleeves and make some WTA from 10 or 15 boxes... Hmmm, 15 boxes = 300 stonewalls = 1200 mg nicotine = perhaps 60 mg minor alkaloids = 40 mL of 30 mg/mL WTA. Not too unreasonable!

But it's Spring, and I'd rather be outside. Maybe a stormy weekend project?

 

[DVap]

Originally Posted by web url: ca.sys-con.com/node/922837
Rock Creek is exploring processes for the extraction of alkaloids from zero-nitrosamine tobacco for the purpose of using those alkaloids in the development of a generic nicotine replacement therapy (NRT), as well as a potential non-nicotine nutraceutical product. The nutraceutical would supply a dietary supplement for adult smokers who seek to minimize nicotine craving using a non-nicotine product. These development efforts are based in part on earlier research cited as support for the patents Star Scientific previously obtained for the use of tobacco alkaloids in treating various neurological conditions, including depression.

Curtis Wright, IV, MD, MPH, Medical Director of Rock Creek, stated, "We have acquired a large body of knowledge about why people smoke, and why smokers have been so unsuccessful in multiple quit attempts. We believe an appropriate strategy involves both an over-the-counter product and a parallel dietary supplement that may be of value in minimizing nicotine cravings."

Rock Creek and Star Scientific recently have developed a prototype nutraceutical product. The prototype combines minor alkaloids of tobacco with other ingredients typical of botanical-based, dietary supplement products. Contracts for initial benchtop and animal toxicity testing have been entered into by Rock Creek. Additional toxicity testing is expected to begin in the next few months. If those testing results and consumer acceptance studies of this product are favorable, Rock Creek anticipates using the brand name CigRx(TM) when it begins its test marketing effort. During the intervening period Star Scientific will be exploring a joint venture with either a pharmaceutical company or a marketing and distribution partner in order to be in a position to achieve broad market penetration with the new nutraceutical product.

They've figured out the key lies in the minor alkaloids. If they do this right, and don't get {ahem} stonewalled by the FDA, this will be a huge success.

 

[ifpo238]

No argument here. I read the "are we getting it or not" thread, as well as the follow-up temporary thread, with much interest.

In the past, I've tried patches and gum. I tried one patch that was strong enough to make me ill, but I never felt that "click" in my head - that oh-so-yummy feeling you get after going a couple of days without an analog and then taking a couple of really good drags. A month without analogs left me with a case of the grumpies and the sadz. Thanks to this board, I found Swedish snus, which have been like salvation.

I'm pleased that I'm learning to use my 510. (This is my second day vaping.) It's still not a B&H gold, but it's getting closer. It should be enough to keep me off the analogs at my brother's bachelor party this wknd.

I wonder if we should work up a petition or something requesting/demonstrating the ready market for a commercial WTA eliquid. I for one feel strongly that it would work for me, based on what I've read here, and how closely I identify with what Madame P calls the "anecdata."

-j

 

[hittman]

This whole thing sounds very interesting. I will be curious to see where it leads.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

No argument here. I read the "are we getting it or not" thread, as well as the follow-up temporary thread, with much interest.


-j

That floors me!! One of the most vital threads contained on this forum and I figured only a handful would know it ever existed. Wow.
And welcome to the darkside..............

 

[ifpo238]

Thanks, TV! Glad to be here.

Saw this this afternoon, which addresses that "are we self-medicating" question:

The link between depression and smoking, long observed by health-care experts, is real and strong, a new government report shows.
People aged 20 and older with depression are twice as likely as others to be cigarette smokers, the researchers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found. And as the severity of depression increased, so did the number of smokers.

The magnitude of the link was surprising, said researcher Laura Pratt, an epidemiologist at the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics, which published the findings April 14.

"The relationship between depression and smoking has been getting stronger over time," she said. Studies found only a small, insignificant link among Americans in 1952 and 1970, she said. But when Pratt and her co-researcher Debra Brody analyzed information from 2005 to 2008 culled from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, they found that:

About 43 percent of adults 20 and older who had depression smoked, compared with 22 percent of that age without depression.

Women with depression had similar smoking rates as men, although women without depression smoked less than men.

As depression worsened, the percentage of adults who were smokers increased.

Depressed smokers smoke more than smokers without depression.

Adults who are depressed and smoke are less likely to quit than are smokers who are not depressed.

About 7 percent of U.S. adults aged 20 and older had depression in 2005 to 2008, the survey found. About half of those younger than 55 who had depression at the time of the survey were smokers, but less than a fourth of that age group without depression were smokers.

Since the U.S. Surgeon General's report on the ill effects of smoking was issued in 1964, cigarette smoking among adults nationwide has been cut in half, but about 21 percent of adults overall still smoke, the report noted.
"Everyone knows people with depression are more likely to smoke," Pratt said, but what surprised her, she said, was the extent to which that was found true in the study.

For instance, among women aged 20 to 39 they found that 50 percent of those with depression smoke, whereas just 21 percent of those without depression do.

Even adults with mild depressive symptoms -- those who wouldn't qualify for a diagnosis of clinical depression -- were more likely to smoke than were people with no symptoms of depression, the researchers found.

Exactly why depressed people tend to smoke more was beyond the scope of the study, Pratt said, but some research has suggested they might be self-medicating, with the cigarettes somehow acting as a calming or relaxing mechanism.

Stanton A. Glantz, director of the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education at the University of California, San Francisco, said the findings were not surprising.

And he agrees that depressed people who smoke may be self-medicating. Part of the problem, he said, is that mental health professionals have been slow to deal with the tobacco issue.

"There's a myth that somehow if you deal with it, [by encouraging them to quit smoking,] it makes it harder to deal with underlying mental illness," Glantz said. "Just the opposite is true."

Not that I consider myself depressed or anything. I will tell you, though, my this last "cold turkey" attempt, resulted in, IMHO, more than just what I consider to be withdrawal symptoms. My mood was affected pretty signifcantly. Sort of a chicken-and-egg thing, though. I didn't start smoking because I felt depressed. I was 16 and curious. Could be that that I just adjusted to functioning w/ a different balance of dopamine/seratonin/whatever, and going back to "normal" threw me for a loop.

-jeff

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Not that I consider myself depressed or anything. I will tell you, though, my this last "cold turkey" attempt, resulted in, IMHO, more than just what I consider to be withdrawal symptoms. My mood was affected pretty signifcantly. Sort of a chicken-and-egg thing, though. I didn't start smoking because I felt depressed. I was 16 and curious. Could be that that I just adjusted to functioning w/ a different balance of dopamine/seratonin/whatever, and going back to "normal" threw me for a loop.

-jeff

I'll never know why I'm the way I am. I was born with some health problems that entailed several surgeries from the ages of 6 months to 6 years in what would now be considered "medieval" medical practices. Anesthetics and painkillers, some not used anymore. Maybe I was just born this way, I've had anxiety since my earliest memories. However I got here, the years of chemical abuse most likely sealed my fate, had it ever been reversible. I function fine on coffee and tobacco nowadays. That's why the alkaloids will always be a part of my diet and why a patch, gum or even PV's won't be more than toys for me. Good post, not sure why they couldn't comprehend why folks with depression smoke more. DVap and the crew nailed it and proved it out in the span of ...what, a little over a month??

 

[W Axl Rose]

Where is that thread now? ("are we getting it...)?? I read parts of it but would like to read it in its entirety.

 

[DVap]

Right here.

Joe decided to close the thread... odd considering some of the threads that are allowed to go on without end. But we don't make the rules.

 

[Oliver]

Whoops - yes, you're right, that was wrong of me. I was (mis)informed that threads that long are too resource hungry, I forgot to reopen this one.

Sorry - it's opened again now.