Tossed out of bars any anyone?

[Plodder]

So, I went to the bar this weekend, extremely excited to have my new PV with me. I had two charged batteries and plenty of cartridges. I waited quite a while before I got up the nerve to try it. I had watched the bouncers move people outside all night for lighting up in the bar. I took my second puff and what to you know? The bouncer shows up and tells me I have to smoke outside. I tell him as well as I can, being new to this, what a PV is but he has never seen one and doesn't think it will work. The bouncer sent me to the bar manager to run it by him. When I spoke to the bar manager, he said, as far as he can tell it is smoking, and he is not prepared to pay a ticket or get shut down. Very frustrating.

I am curious, who should I call at a city/state level, to confirm this is acceptable? I want to be able to pass the info on to the bars I frequent, so this is not an issue in the future. Any ideas on who I should contact? Who enforces no smoking rules?

 

[Kent C]

You might check the 'law and the ecig' forum and do a search. No one but a lawyer could really answer your question fully and then he'd have to know the exact wording the the law that banned smoking. It's probably something about 'no smoking of tobacco products' and that's where nicotine comes from. You won't be able to post over there for now but I would think the subject has come up and that's where it would be.

Thanks for testing the waters though... It should be the owner's call, but so should smoking tobacco be their call as well. You could just wait for total anarchy. Shouldn't be too long...

 

[wv2win]

I've had both experiences. I always tell the waiter, bartender or manager what the PV is, how it works and explain it and that it is only water vapor. Some establishments are fine with it. One place that wasn't actually did have a fairly good explanation as to why she did not want me to vape. She explaned she was afraid that smokers would think it was the real thing and want to light up and then she would be in the middle of explaining the difference and she didn't want to get into that. That does make sense to me. I hope the day comes that beside the "no smoking" sign on the door, there will be "vaping accepted" signs. But I figure that is a ways off.

 

[TheColoradoDude]

Hey I understand where you are coming from. I have been to several and I first ask the bartenders/bouncers/managers if they have heard of them. If they have not then just let them know that it is not smoke! I have a handy little card that I received with my first e cig the NJOY. It's a little card that explains why smoking bans dont affect NJOY

*E Cigarettes and cigars contain no tobacco therefore procuces no first or second hand smoke. No carcinogens, no tar
*There's no Ignition or Flame.

Ultimately I suppose its the establishments right to say yay or nay no matter what is legal or not. So take it as an opportunity to educate them and you might even recruit a few more consumers to your favorite vendor!

 

[zero7starz]

So, I went to the bar this weekend, extremely excited to have my new PV with me. I had two charged batteries and plenty of cartridges. I waited quite a while before I got up the nerve to try it. I had watched the bouncers move people outside all night for lighting up in the bar. I took my second puff and what to you know? The bouncer shows up and tells me I have to smoke outside. I tell him as well as I can, being new to this, what a PV is but he has never seen one and doesn't think it will work. The bouncer sent me to the bar manager to run it by him. When I spoke to the bar manager, he said, as far as he can tell it is smoking, and he is not prepared to pay a ticket or get shut down. Very frustrating.

I am curious, who should I call at a city/state level, to confirm this is acceptable? I want to be able to pass the info on to the bars I frequent, so this is not an issue in the future. Any ideas on who I should contact? Who enforces no smoking rules?

As a fellow Kansasn can I inquire as to what place it was?

I've had both experiences. I always tell the waiter, bartender or manager what the PV is, how it works and explain it and that it is only water vapor. Some establishments are fine with it. One place that wasn't actually did have a fairly good explanation as to why she did not want me to vape. She explaned she was afraid that smokers would think it was the real thing and want to light up and then she would be in the middle of explaining the difference and she didn't want to get into that. That does make sense to me. I hope the day comes that beside the "no smoking" sign on the door, there will be "vaping accepted" signs. But I figure that is a ways off.

I understand that, no one wants to have to explain time and again to people why person A seems special. Before I knew much about vaping, if I saw someone who looked like they were smoking I would have wanted to as well.

 

[sherid]

Write to the health department and ask them for clarification. I did that in OH, and they grudgingly said that e cigarettes do not violate the smoking ban. Carry the letter with you.

 

[CheeMiss]

Write to the health department and ask them for clarification. I did that in OH, and they grudgingly said that e cigarettes do not violate the smoking ban. Carry the letter with you.

THAT IS A GREAT IDEA! Thanks!

btw: Would you provide a copy of the letter you wrote. Maybe your verbage is what got you thru the system.

 

[master_meow]

I have had both happen to me, but rarely getting asked to do it outside. The biggest thing is respect. There have been some posts I have read of very disrespecful people here(few as it is though). Remember you are not the owner and not risking as you posted him saying he does not want to risk a fine or being shut down. Over time it will change. I think you handled it well none the less, since you didnt appear to make a scene. And the bright side is at least you got to talk to the manager as opposed to the bouncer saying get the hell out.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Write to the health department and ask them for clarification. I did that in OH, and they grudgingly said that e cigarettes do not violate the smoking ban. Carry the letter with you.

This is a great idea i'd love to know who you wrote to and how you worded the letter also...If i could get something on NYS Letterhead that stated specificly that PV's do not violate the smoking ban it could help out the cause a lot!

 

[Hex]

I have mostly good experiences with bars and clubs, however there was 1 spot that didn't allow me to smoke inside even when I explained it to them. To me, its really up to the establishment if they will allow you to or not, but PV's are at least getting more exposure so hopefully soon we will not have to worry about these inconvenient situations anymore.

 

[CheeMiss]

I have mostly good experiences with bars and clubs, however there was 1 spot that didn't allow me to smoke inside even when I explained it to them. To me, its really up to the establishment if they will allow you to or not, but PV's are at least getting more exposure so hopefully soon we will not have to worry about these inconvenient situations anymore.

I agree. Of course there is the odd business that is fearful of penalty, but that is clearly understandable. But what I have noticed so far, most people do not mind what so ever. Actually they like the fact that I do not have to leave their company (ie: having a coffee at a table) just to go outside to smoke. Since there is no offensive smoke to land on their clothes.....people really do not mind. Quite honestly, I really don't blame them for not liking a stink attached to their clothes.

I too think that with more & more exposure.......
but, I am not getting any grief about it right now. Thank God.

 

[Mac]

I have yet to be successfully stopped. The key is understanding what you have in your hands and the ability to explain it clearly.

 

[Vegatron75]

Where you at in Kansas? I live outside of KC and know of a few places where it's ok. I'm to the point of not asking and just sneaking hits. Hold the vapor in and almost nothing comes out.

 

[Jim Davis]

The bottom line is, if the owner or manager says no. There's nothing that can be done. They have that right. I would suggest mentioning the disposals to the owner. Some bars sell them right at the bar, and the owner makes a few extra bucks, as well as letting people vape in his establishment. A win/win.

 

[Joe498]

The situation is a little tricky. You can get all the letters from anyone you want, but in the end if the owner/manager of the establishment ask you not to vape then it's probably best to comply. I have a friend of mine that is a manager of a bar and while I was hanging out up there waiting for the place to close I started vaping. He told me someone threw a fit when he asked them not to smoke inside the guy explained it to him and he informed him it had nothing to with the tobacco law.

The night the guy started vaping inside the bar it was a busy night and when one guy saw the ember and vape he thought it was okay to smoke inside and then 2 or 3 other people lit up. They escorted them out asking them to finish their cigarettes outside. When he asked the guy vaping he threw the fit.

Short story long, he no longer allows people to vape inside the bar. He knows all about them he just doesn't want to have to deal with people not complying when he ask them to step outside.

Plus if they say no what are we going to do? We can't call the police because they have the right to say no. It's just best to go to places that will let you vape and not fight the ones that don't because they have their reason.

 

[Cloud9Smoking.com]

I have yet to get tossed out of a bar though I did get threatened with expulsion if I didn't put my e-cigarette away in a "Strike", a place thats got bowling, arcades, pool, and a bar..

 

[sherid]

This is a great idea i'd love to know who you wrote to and how you worded the letter also...If i could get something on NYS Letterhead that stated specificly that PV's do not violate the smoking ban it could help out the cause a lot!

Well, I did have a bit of fun with this guy because he could not just give an answer at first. He had to include what "might" happen, so I continued to push. Here is the entire exchange for your enjoyment. You will have to start at the bottom and move up from first to last reply.




As mentioned earlier, technically, electronic cigarettes are allowed in public places because tobacco is not used in them.
________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:02 AM
To: Smoke Info
Subject: RE: electronic cigarettes

I am not trying to be difficult, but I would like a definitive answer if you could. If the electronic cigarette does not violate the terms of the smoking ban (no tobacco, no ashtray, no fire, etc.) and no one is smoking real cigarettes during the investigation; then how could the place allowing customers to vapor electronic cigarettes and nothing else be held liable for breaking the smoking ban? I did not see anything in the law that covers the "appearance" of smoking. I did see a definition of "smoking" and the e cigarette does not fall under that definition. I also don't see how other patrons could complain that there was a violation. Under what part of the smoking ban would a customer be able to make such a complaint....no ashtray, signs posted, no tobacco, no lit substance. If you cannot answer these questions or do not wish to do so, who might I direct my questions? Thank you.




--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Smoke Info <smkinfo@odh.ohio.gov> wrote:
From: Smoke Info <smkinfo@odh.ohio.gov>
Subject: RE: electronic cigarettes
Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 10:35 AM


That decision would be up to the enforcement office and legal
council.
________________________________
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Smoke Info
Subject: RE: electronic cigarettes

One more question....if said e smoker provided a card and demonstration of the
product and the place in question posted an electronic smoking allowed notice
with that explanation, would that help to legally solve any confusion?



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Smoke Info <smkinfo@odh.ohio.gov> wrote:
From: Smoke Info <smkinfo@odh.ohio.gov>
Subject: RE: electronic cigarettes

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 11:13 AM


Technically, electronic cigarettes are allowed in public places where smoking
is
banned. However, other patrons of establishments where smoking is banned may
not understand the
policy, and some confusion may result as to what the users
of
the electronic cigarettes may be using. In other words, other patrons may
think
tobacco is being used instead of electronic cigarettes.
________________________________

Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:42 AM
To: Smoke Info
Subject: electronic cigarettes

Could you please respond with your policy for electronic cigarettes in places
where smoking is banned. I am assuming that since they are not lit or produce
any burning substance, contain no
tobacco, and are vaporized rather than smoked;
that it is legal to use them in bars and restaurants if the owner allows it.
Obviously, e cigarettes also do not require ashtrays. Although they are not
produced by a pharmaceutical company, e cigarettes function much like nicotine
inhalers sold in drug stores for smoking cessation.

In case you
are unfamiliar with electronic cigarettes, here is an introduction.

An electronic cigarette (or e-cigarette, e-cig) is a cigarette
substitute<http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_substitute>, giving
small amounts of the chemical
nicotine<http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine> without
tobacco<http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco> or other chemicals from
real cigarettes. The main substances making up in the liquid in the
e-cigarettes
are nicotine,
propylene
glycol<http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Propylene_glycol&action=edit&redlink=1>,
gylcerin<http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gylcerin&action=edit&redlink=1>
and some flavors<http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavor> or
smells<http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smell>.


Thank you.

 

[sherid]

The situation is a little tricky. You can get all the letters from anyone you want, but in the end if the owner/manager of the establishment ask you not to vape then it's probably best to comply. I have a friend of mine that is a manager of a bar and while I was hanging out up there waiting for the place to close I started vaping. He told me someone threw a fit when he asked them not to smoke inside the guy explained it to him and he informed him it had nothing to with the tobacco law.

The night the guy started vaping inside the bar it was a busy night and when one guy saw the ember and vape he thought it was okay to smoke inside and then 2 or 3 other people lit up. They escorted them out asking them to finish their cigarettes outside. When he asked the guy vaping he threw the fit.

Short story long, he no longer allows people to vape inside the bar. He knows all about them he just doesn't want to have to deal with people not complying when he ask them to step outside.

Plus if they say no what are we going to do? We can't call the police because they have the right to say no. It's just best to go to places that will let you vape and not fight the ones that don't because they have their reason.

All of that could be avoided with a simple sign: Electronic cigarettes allowed: tobacco smoking not allowed. It would follow the same, simple idea that owners should be able to post a sign on the door saying it is a smoking or a non-smoking establishment. Most people can read, and they would know through the sign whether they wanted to "risk" shs by going inside a smoking allowed venue. Problem solved

 

[jonnyb]

I have been using my pv everywhere,the most I get is a doubletake,however nobody has come up to me and question what i'm doing.

 

[AGNES PEACOCK]

The bottom line is, if the owner or manager says no. There's nothing that can be done. They have that right. I would suggest mentioning the disposals to the owner. Some bars sell them right at the bar, and the owner makes a few extra bucks, as well as letting people vape in his establishment. A win/win.

Having been a bartender in a busy Inn with live weekly entertainment, I beleive Jim has a great suggestion for you. Request a one on one meeting with the owner. Print the page from the supplier here that sells the Ruyan Jazz disposable to take along. Entertain the idea with the owner of starting a vaping club. You will also be able to demonstrate your PV to him/her. If you get at least one club started on it, several more may just follow.

Approaching managers and bartenders on a busy evening will most likely put them in a position to just say no. As they have so much going on at the moment.

Hope you are able to bring a few of the clubs you frequent over to our side. Good Luck to you.