Totally turned off Five Pawns - absurd story from an absurd company

[RPadTV]

Regardless of who sells it, if it's sold online and five pawns makes it the request for a sample is a reasonable one.

If you'd show me a sample-sized bottle of Castle Long Reserve then I'd agree with you. I don't know that they're available that way. That aside, I do agree that the OP had a poor experience with the CSR.

$38 for 30 ml is ridiculous IMO. But, if people get off on paying that kind of money for juice, more power to 'em.

It's certainly expensive, but I don't know that that it's ridiculous. Anything that keeps people off cigarettes is a good thing. Besides, it's still cheaper than smoking.

That wasn't my post, but in response to it...

As an online seller of handmade goods myself, I feel that customer service and providing the best product you can is extremely important. It's the internet. All the customer gets IS customer service and the product. Regardless of what the OP asked for( ie it not being available for sale, ect) has nothing to do with it, at least from my stand point. I read reviews on the company before I purchase the product, as I'm sure many others do, hence why a lot of these forums exist.

It's like, aren't you more inclined to purchase a product after reading "their customer service and products are Great!!" as compared to, "their customer service sucks, they are rude (not saying specifically this case, just an example), but the product was great". I know I'd opt for better overall. Just my .02.

I appreciate your perspective, but every company has bad CS days. It happens. The OP certainly had a bad experience, but I wouldn't hold a single experience against a company.

As for believing what you read in forums, that's a tough one. A lot of people are selective with the information they collect and come to ill-informed conclusions. For example, I could read hundreds of negative things about the game the OP is working on and dismiss his work/company. The thing about the Internet is that it gives anyone a voice, which can lead to bad info. Like I said before, there are some people that seem to enjoy taking the time to blast Five Pawns products and business practices without having experience with them. That makes it hard to extract real info from the trolling.

To the OP: You know I love your company's games.

 

[GameDesigner]

You're making several assumptions about the company's business model and practices. The comparisons to AVE and Mad Murdock don't apply. Those guys are primarily online vendors. Five Pawns is a small company that's focused on retail. With that in mind, it's not surprising that the company doesn't give out samples, especially given that the requested sample isn't something it sells online (as of this writing). It can be sampled -- for free -- at the retailers that carry it.

Out of curiosity, have you tried any Five Pawns e-liquids?

=-=-=-=-=

Back to the OP, sampling can be a funny thing. Certainly I appreciate vendors that offer it, but I understand vendors that don't. You and I are both Ahlusion fans, and that company has a very generous sampling deal, but I'm sure you're a fan of companies that don't offer samples. The whole conversation reminds me of a Backwoods Brew complaint from last year (I think); a customer was very angry with BWB because he asked for a sample and didn't get one. Is that really fair? If a company doesn't normally give samples then should it be criticized for that? Speaking specifically about Castle Long Reserve, it's a limited-run juice that's only available at some Five Pawns retailers. Wouldn't it be strange to give you a sample of something you can't buy?

This misses the mark by a mile. It's not as if I felt entitled to something for free and then felt indignant when it wasn't offered. I simply asked if it was possible to pay full price for a smaller bottle if I also agreed to buy a full bottle of another flavor. In other words my proposition was: If I buy X from you, will you also allow me to buy Y. I asked because I was aware that LCR is not available on their site. Had they said, "We're sorry but LCR is only available in our brick and mortar shops" that would've been that. Totally understandable. Instead, though, they tipped their hand to the fact that selling the LCR wasn't actually an issue by saying that they would indeed sell it to me, provided I purchase two or more big bottles of their other product. I'm sorry if you can't see the problem in that -- certainly, marketing-oriented tasting tours and complimentary product might cloud one's judgement. But this is how "ordinary" customers are treated and it does differ. I suspect if they were aware of the audience I reach elsewhere, I wouldn't have received that response from Five Pawns.

 

[GameDesigner]

Regardless of how concerned 5P might be about undercutting their retail vendors, as soon as they stepped onto the internet with a shopping cart they made my comparison apply just fine. Besides, there are plenty of other juice makers out there that are also "focused on retail" that don't feel the need to overly inflate their prices in an effort to insinuate that their juices somehow taste better, or are manufactured with higher-grade ingredients, or better lab equipment, or cleaner people, or more love, or whatever. All those assumptions aside, I honestly have no idea why their juice is more expensive than anyone else's. I've searched for the answer, and have found nothing but sensationalism and general ballyhoo from the occasional shill.

And in regards to the sample requested by the OP: Fine, if the juice is not to be sold online, then don't sell it online. Full stop. If whatever goofy thing you can drum up to provoke interest in your product works, then I guess it works, and more power to you. Clearly that isn't the case, as the OP was offered a sample, but with terms. To me, that's lame no matter how you slice it. Send a nice response to the customer explaining that the juice is limited-run, ask them where they're located, and perhaps point them to a nearby retailer who stocks it. Not "Yes, I can send you some, but you'll need to spend more money to cover the additional expenses incurred by pouring it into a tiny container and stuffing it into your package for you." It would've been less offensive if the guy had said "Yeah, we can send you a small sample, but it's $27.50. It does come with a free 30ml bottle of Gambit, though!"

I haven't tried them, and it's not likely I ever will. I've already got a few solid vendors I buy (reasonably priced) juice from and I mix my own ADV's, so it would be counter-productive of me to sample something that costs so much more than anything else that I might actually like enough to order again.

Bingo. Thanks for understanding.

 

[skyztheLynnit]

,.............

 

[GameDesigner]

...

They offer a sample set that is worth trying if you're curious. With few points of comparison, I was impressed when I first tried them only two weeks into vaping. The product descriptions which come on a nicely printed tasting menu convinced me that these were uniquely complex liquids. Now I know otherwise. Absolute Pin is an absinthe juice and is no more remarkable than others such as Ahlusion's Blue Fairy. Grandmaster is a banana dessert blend similar to any number of such liquids like Ahlusion's Banana Fosters. Queenside is dime-a-dozen orange creamsicle (I trust everyone already has several favorites). Similarly, Bowden's Mate is just another chocolate mint. And as for the one that I thought was unique among the bunch, Gambit, I found better alternatives in Hurricane Vapor's Galleta Dulce and Dulce de Leche Ice Cream.

 

[skyztheLynnit]

To RPAD.. i responded in this thread because it DOES make a difference to me how a customer is treated.. we've all experienced crappy CS at some point.. so we can all relate..

Being a promoter in the ecig industry .. i would think you would understand the value of these forums and what word of mouth can do for a company..

much of what is sold for ecig merchandise is bought blind. You hear enough good things over time.. you trust in that. You just might buy the product. That's how it works, unless, that is, your B&M is quite successful.



As far as the juice aged in a barrel .. how do you know it adds flavor? Did you also sample liquid from the same batch that didn't "age"?

 

[skyztheLynnit]

They offer a sample set that is worth trying if you're curious. With few points of comparison, I was impressed when I first tried them only two weeks into vaping. The product descriptions which come on a nicely printed tasting menu convinced me that these were uniquely complex liquids. Now I know otherwise. Absolute Pin is an absinthe juice and is no more remarkable than others such as Ahlusion's Blue Fairy. Grandmaster is a banana dessert blend similar to any number of such liquids like Ahlusion's Banana Fosters. Queenside is dime-a-dozen orange creamsicle (I trust everyone already has several favorites). Similarly, Bowden's Mate is just another chocolate mint. And as for the one that I thought was unique among the bunch, Gambit, I found better alternatives in Hurricane Vapor's Galleta Dulce and Dulce de Leche Ice Cream.

Thank you GameDesigner! You have saved me $$, time and frustration..
For that.. i thank you.

 

[Frankenmizer]

Five Pawns is certainly an experiment in branding and marketing. And a new one, too, so I'm not entirely surprised they're encountering some image and communications missteps in the ECF community.

It's clear the OP was put off, but without seeing the entire e-mail words can go out of context fast. An arguably better answer from Five Pawns would have read along the lines of,
"..Castle Long Reserve is available in limited quantities only through our retail partners. We appreciate your business and hope you understand. I am including a list our partners in this reply. Five Pawns encourages you to visit them.." or words to that effect.

In no way do I think Raymond Padilla (RPadTV) is a shill for anything or anyone. It's clear to me at least that Raymond loves what he does, and he does it well. My apologies to ECF, but that "shill" crack really gets up my nose.

However, there is something about the Five Pawns pitch that is off to my ear. Some tuning is called for.

Finally, in the interest of full disclosure, I have an order of Castle Long Reserve on the way. Why? I want to see what can be done with bourbon. Raymond's review piqued my interest. This is Five Pawns one shot to prove their abilities to me.

 

[rebgold]

I think someone around here should try the oak barrel vs. oak chips steeping test!
The one thing I kept thinking as I read through this thread is this, attractive packaging and labeling isn't shilling in my opinion. There are ways to market to every type of consumer, that's why many, many companies sell various versions of their products, often exactly the same, with different types of packaging at different price points.
I appreciate attractive packaging and labeling. I am not unaware enough to believe it always signifies a better product, but I like it when the presentation is appealing.
If you came to eat at my restaurant and I served you the exact same entree, one plated nicely with a fancy swoosh of sauce and some kind of garnish on a pretty plate and one plopped on the middle of a paper plate with the sauce just glopped on top, which one do you think you'd prefer to eat?
As for 5 Pawns, I like their packaging, but not their juice. Every one has either cinnamon or cream in it, two flavors I cannot stand.

 

[retired1]

If you came to eat at my restaurant and I served you the exact same entree, one plated nicely with a fancy swoosh of sauce and some kind of garnish on a pretty plate and one plopped on the middle of a paper plate with the sauce just glopped on top, which one do you think you'd prefer to eat?

If the food is good, who cares?

I've never been one for the fancy presentation when it comes to what I eat. Good food is good food. As long as my taste buds are happy, it's all good!

 

[raqball]

$37.50 for one 30ml bottle of juice??????????

PASS

Good lord! I just ordered 125ml of my all day vape for $44

 

[RPadTV]

This misses the mark by a mile. It's not as if I felt entitled to something for free and then felt indignant when it wasn't offered. I simply asked if it was possible to pay full price for a smaller bottle if I also agreed to buy a full bottle of another flavor. In other words my proposition was: If I buy X from you, will you also allow me to buy Y. I asked because I was aware that LCR is not available on their site. Had they said, "We're sorry but LCR is only available in our brick and mortar shops" that would've been that. Totally understandable. Instead, though, they tipped their hand to the fact that selling the LCR wasn't actually an issue by saying that they would indeed sell it to me, provided I purchase two or more big bottles of their other product. I'm sorry if you can't see the problem in that -- certainly, marketing-oriented tasting tours and complimentary product might cloud one's judgement. But this is how "ordinary" customers are treated and it does differ. I suspect if they were aware of the audience I reach elsewhere, I wouldn't have received that response from Five Pawns.

I totally agree that you had a bad CS experience. It was handled poorly and I've said that a few times on this thread. I don't appreciate some of the implications you're making though. Come on man. You're familiar with my background and the way writers in gaming are treated. I assure you that my judgement isn't clouded.

To RPAD.. i responded in this thread because it DOES make a difference to me how a customer is treated.. we've all experienced crappy CS at some point.. so we can all relate..

Being a promoter in the ecig industry .. i would think you would understand the value of these forums and what word of mouth can do for a company..

much of what is sold for ecig merchandise is bought blind. You hear enough good things over time.. you trust in that. You just might buy the product. That's how it works, unless, that is, your B&M is quite successful.

Forums can provide lots of great information. They can also provide lots of bad information or misinformation. The OP was indeed met with poor CS. I've said that several times. Some of the other opinions that came up on the thread are based on nothing, yet they've influenced people.

As far as the juice aged in a barrel .. how do you know it adds flavor? Did you also sample liquid from the same batch that didn't "age"?

There's a slight aftertaste of oak. I'm thinking that's from the barrel. While it's possible that oak flavor could have been added to the mix, that would make the whole barrel thing a waste of time and money. Personally, I don't think that it does anything for the "aging" of the e-liquid, but altering flavor? Sure.

In no way do I think Raymond Padilla (RPadTV) is a shill for anything or anyone. It's clear to me at least that Raymond loves what he does, and he does it well. My apologies to ECF, but that "shill" crack really gets up my nose.

However, there is something about the Five Pawns pitch that is off to my ear. Some tuning is called for.

Finally, in the interest of full disclosure, I have an order of Castle Long Reserve on the way. Why? I want to see what can be done with bourbon. Raymond's review piqued my interest. This is Five Pawns one shot to prove their abilities to me.

Thank you for that. Being accused of being a shill is funny. I've been covering tech and videogames since 1996, so I've been accused of being on the take for Apple, Dell, Gateway, Acer, HP, Palm, Handspring, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, Google, etc. I've written articles that have had comments saying that I'm clearly being paid by Microsoft to promote Xbox 360 followed by comments saying that I'm clearly being paid by Sony to promote PlayStation 3. It's rather confusing.

I want all vaping companies to do well, even ones with products I don't particularly like. These companies make products that help people stay away from tobacco cigarettes. That's a good thing.

As for Castle Long Reserve, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on it. I think CLR and Gambit are the company's best products, but of course we all have different preferences and tastebuds.

 

[Frankenmizer]

...

There's a slight aftertaste of oak. I'm thinking that's from the barrel. While it's possible that oak flavor could have been added to the mix, that would make the whole barrel thing a waste of time and money. Personally, I don't think that it does anything for the "aging" of the e-liquid, but altering flavor? Sure.

...

As for Castle Long Reserve, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on it. I think CLR and Gambit are the company's best products, but of course we all have different preferences and tastebuds.

According to the tracker, CLR will be here tomorrow. I have a new ProTank2 ready for it.

I haven't drunk alcohol in 30 years, but in my day I liked great bourbons, single malts, and cognacs. That's the allure of Castle Long Reserve for me. The taste of great "hard" liquors is not something being explored much in this market. Can bourbon work in an e-juice? If it can, new flavor territory could open up. I'll know tomorrow, one way or the other.

 

[Caridwen]

According to the tracker, CLR will be here tomorrow. I have a new ProTank2 ready for it.

I haven't drunk alcohol in 30 years, but in my day I liked great bourbons, single malts, and cognacs. That's the allure of Castle Long Reserve for me. The taste of great "hard" liquors is not something being explored much in this market. Can bourbon work in an e-juice? If it can, new flavor territory could open up. I'll know tomorrow, one way or the other.

Please start another thread.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Yes, it's aged in a treated oak barrel. I totally understand if some people believe that it does nothing for e-liquid. It does impart some flavor though.





Or perhaps the company doesn't sell it online in the first place.



Like I said in an earlier post, the company focus is retail. The juice isn't for sale on the company's web site at all, let alone in a sample size. Do you not think it's an unusual request to ask for something that isn't for sale? I'm not even sure the company has Castle Long Reserve bottles labeled for anything but its retailers, if it all. Please correct me if you've seen them.

These guys are such clowns. I'm seriously cracking up at the thought of them commissioning someone to brand "5 PAWNS SIGNATURE EXCLUSIVE LIMITED PREMIUM SERIES E LIQUID" into an oak barrel for them. Personally I wouldnt even want to vape anything that has been in a wooden barrel. It's going into my lungs, it's not a bordeaux. I got a free sample from these guys off reddit, and was mildly impressed with the packaging, but that's it. The juice was pretty standard fare. Ahlusion, Good Life Vapor, AVE all have far superior juices for half the price imo.

 

[raqball]

These guys are such clowns. I'm seriously cracking up at the thought of them commissioning someone to brand "5 PAWNS SIGNATURE EXCLUSIVE LIMITED PREMIUM SERIES E LIQUID" into an oak barrel for them. Personally I wouldnt even want to vape anything that has been in a wooden barrel. It's going into my lungs, it's not a bordeaux. I got a free sample from these guys off reddit, and was mildly impressed with the packaging, but that's it. The juice was pretty standard fare. Ahlusion, Good Life Vapor, AVE all have far superior juices for half the price imo.

I'd have to agree with you..

I ordered a sampler kit a while back to see what all the rage was about... The juice was average at best! I passed it along to a friend because I didn't really care for any of the flavors.. She later told me that she tried all the flavors, hated them, and had poured the rest down the drain.. LOL

Don't think I would say it was so horrid it need to go down the drain but I would not buy it again.. Heck I wouldn't buy it if it was $15 a bottle and I doub't I'd buy it at $10 a bottle either..

If it was $5 for 30ml I'd buy a bottle to keep around for emergency use only..

My .02 off the $37.50 price tag 8-o

 

[GameDesigner]

I totally agree that you had a bad CS experience. It was handled poorly and I've said that a few times on this thread. I don't appreciate some of the implications you're making though. Come on man. You're familiar with my background and the way writers in gaming are treated. I assure you that my judgement isn't clouded.

The implications are not what you might imagine. I'm not suggesting that you were bought off with secret handshakes and backroom bargaining or, in other words, that you're a shill. Nonetheless influence works in subtle ways. Naive as you may seem at the moment for someone who has worked in the enthusiast press, you surely understand that in the mind of Five Pawn's management you're simply a marketing tool. And as when videogame publishers host lavish events and provide the press with memorabilia, Five Pawn's management gives you the red-carpet treatment as well as gifts with the understanding that no matter what you may tell yourself, they do indeed stand to subconsciously influence your thinking and subsequent coverage.

So this is not to accuse you of anything more than being human, same as everyone else. Nothing nefarious in that. I've had similar discussions on the same issue as it pertains to the gaming press and will paste some snippets from one that occurred on the NeoGAF forums.

Relevant link: Thanks for Giving | Psychology Today

One unthinking member of the press wrote: "No, that's just overgeneralization. By your logic, it is impossible to write a negative review/article if the PR gifts/food/whatever was excellent? Because, we've had plenty negatieve reviews about bad games, even if the PR was good. I remember getting a very cool Brink PR package, but that game was awful. Thus it received an awful review. PR gift was cool, but that's it."

To which I responded: "Not at all. It's interesting that your defense is to dismiss the notion that influence works in subtle ways that we aren't always aware of (as opposed to the popular notion of blatant bribery and "money hats") as generalization, and then use as your argument the assumption that any PR interaction at all would have to guarantee a good review if, in fact, the psychological research was right. That is gross generalization... or you just aren't getting the argument. I can't offer a crash course on the topic at the moment as I'm at work, so instead imagine it from the "appearance of impropriety" angle:

You're publishing a review. Pretend you're willing to include a sidebar with the subhead "Things that can have no influence at all on my perspective." In this sidebar are photos of you sharing single malt Scotch and haute cuisine with PR people. There are photos of the array of tchotchkes you received at the assorted press events for the title that you attended. There are also photos taken from your night out with your hosts. Despite your confidence in you being the rare exception to rules about human behavior, how likely is your audience to come to the same conclusion?

Apparently, judges' glucose levels affect their rulings: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/no...ons-of-judges/
And yet you expect your audience to regard you as a Randian ubermensch rational above your biology."

I later wrote: "Many are eager to see people in the press address the matter (and several sites have been writing about it); some want promises that writers are taking palliative measures. The important thing, though, is that forums such as this are already skeptical, and there's no better corrective measure than that.

Whatever we want to think the press can do, what PR people can do, none of it will accomplish anything comparable to the result of audience scrutiny. GAF is great at this. It's why this thread exists. Sometimes we read signal where there's only really noise, sometimes we isolate the signal from the noise. So it goes.

I don't doubt that Shreier is being honest with himself when he writes that " I've never felt like being friendly with PR folk has affected the way I do my job, and all the good PR people understand that journalists want to be as fair and as honest as possible when covering their companies. If I ever felt like I was writing or covering a story differently because of a friendship with someone in the industry, I might reconsider this approach, but I've never had that experience." But we're all blind to our own blindnesses. In short, the proper path is the one GAF has walked all along: big, messy, boisterous, many-voiced discussions driven in equal part by enthusiasm and skepticism.

Thankfully, this isn't a field like medicine that (for the non-med students among us) is characterized by information disparities that disadvantage us and put us at the mercy of specialists. Second opinions are free and we needn't devote a month of research to determine whether or not a physician is painting the whole picture when prescribing a drug. Everyone here is as much an expert as the so-called specialists. When you smell bull...., call bull.... (as is already the case)."

Substitute ECF for GAF, and the argument is the same.

Ask yourself this: Would you inadvertently do damage control for a vendor whose product you've tried but have had no professional connection with and whose company you haven't covered?

On another note, Five Pawns entire PR formula is to attempt to manufacture exclusivity, and to sell potential customers on the fantasy that they have elevated, sophisticated tastes which they express in the symbolic act of buying from Five Pawns. That the product itself is run of the mill is irrelevant provided that they can consolidate the power of their status symbol. As they themselves say, "You are eligible to purchase" from them, and this is a privilege; membership in a meaninglessly exclusive club http://i.imgur.com/6JCkzl1.jpg
I've got no love at all for their transparent goonery.

 

[BennyBlanco]

glad i'm not the only gaming dweeb on this website

 

[GameDesigner]

glad i'm not the only gaming dweeb on this website

Augh yeah!

 

[raqball]

I watched the video review of the new 5 pawns juice and my instant opinion was that the reviewer was in their back pocket..

I am not saying that was the case but it was my opinion..