Toxicity Assessment of Refill Liquids for Electronic Cigarettes

[nicnik]

Agree 100% with the ideas of moderation. I found several months ago I was using way too much flavor in my own DiY after cutting it in half and surprisingly finding more flavor rather than less. Very tempted to try the no flavor route because honestly the taste is about the least important thing to me, the nicotine and the actions are what keeps me vaping rather than smoking. If you look at it in comparison to what a cigarette tastes like and you would have to dip pretty low to get anywhere near that.

Ayear ago I switched to flavorless. Lately, I've started sometimes adding a tiny bit of flavor. I've tried full flavor to see the difference, then back to a tiny bit. Then, in comparison, it seems really weak. But if I vape a few minutes flavorless, folowed by a tiny bit of flavor, I like it as much as full flavor.

I've now tried that with maybe ten flavors, and that effect applies to some more than others, for me.

Lots of advantages to low/no flavor. Much less expesnsive, much more atomizer friendly and less fuss cleaning, and finding flavors I like and don't get tired of. I also rarely vape over 5 watts, and that also really helps with keeping atomizers clean. Edit: I forgot about the fact that the eroll, which I use sometimes, vapes higher than 5 watts. 2.2ohm SR atties (usually test a bit higher for me) and 3.7v, so up to about 6.2 watts. Still need higher nic % with the eroll compared to 3.3v 2.5ohm with my egos, which is well under 5 watts. I think that's because of more airflow making for increased vapor with the ego tanks, but maybe something else that I'm not familiar with about the output of the devices.

 

[bobwho77]

Agreed that this is highly useful data but also less than thrilled about the results. This will fuel regulationists beyond the point of reason and give the anti's more than enough to pound the table.

If this is used to appropriately regulate and innovate methods that lead to a reduction in these harmful elements in liquids, that'd be great. What's certain is that this will finally end the "there's only 4 things in e-liquid" debate that some vapers erroneously engage in.

I really hope that these data are used for good but my fear is that they won't be. Rather, it will be used not to fix the issue but to eliminate the entire discussion.

At best, it's a regulatory beginning that will benefit us all because at present, e-liquid isn't safe enough. At worst, it's a science-based aguement that anti's will use to finally prove that e-liquid isn't safe period.

I hope my wife doesn't see this.

I agree with you, but in todays all or nothing, risk averse society, there seems to be no such thing as "Appropriate" regulation. you either let the "Market" regulate itself, (We could do that, given transparency from the manufacturers, and all the information, but...) or you ban it completely (a lot more likely, given the circumstances)

 

[DC2]

Agree 100% with the ideas of moderation. I found several months ago I was using way too much flavor in my own DiY after cutting it in half and surprisingly finding more flavor rather than less. Very tempted to try the no flavor route because honestly the taste is about the least important thing to me, the nicotine and the actions are what keeps me vaping rather than smoking. If you look at it in comparison to what a cigarette tastes like and you would have to dip pretty low to get anywhere near that.

I spent a long time listening to people say that unflavored is pretty good by itself.
I finally pulled the trigger and bought some, and it IS pretty good.

In fact, I'm vaping some right now.
70% PG/30% VG

 

[Katya]

I spent a long time listening to people say that unflavored is pretty good by itself.
I finally pulled the trigger and bought some, and it IS pretty good.

In fact, I'm vaping some right now.
70% PG/30% VG

I've been vaping unflavored for ever--and diluting almost all of my flavored e-liquids.

Glad you like too.

 

[sofarsogood]

I've been vaping since october, smoke free since november, rebuilding for the past 2 months, keeping it below 15 watts, and close to pulling the trigger on diy. I've intentionally avoided trying a lot of flavors. I don't want a fussy palet. With diy I don't want to do a lot of experimenting and fiddling with flavors. What I'm reading here is I can keep diy simple and get a satisfying result.

One of the most interesting things about the ecig debate is the absense of reports about doctors treating illnesses caused by using ecigs. There are 10s of millions of people vaping around the world. Disease and poison control people are quite efficient at gathering and sharing information, especially when there is something new. Where are the sick vapers who got that way by vaping?

One short coming of testing the liquids as liquids, what is actually inhaled and how much of that ends up being harmlessly exhaled?

 

[caramel]

I've been vaping unflavored for ever--and diluting almost all of my flavored e-liquids.

Glad you like too.

5 drops of MBV "Extreme Ice" diluted in 30ml unflavored is what I'm sipping right now. It's definitely fresh and distinctly recognizable as mint, without burning your throat and nostrils like the undiluted one.

I believe most flavored liquid on the market today is way too concentrated. It's clearly useful for the first weeks after switching from smoking, as your senses are numbed by so many years of cigs, but after some time one may feel it too heavy.

 

[Painter_]

Carmel, I could not agree with you more. I started diy about a year ago because I wanted to be able to drop the nicotine slowly and also because the store bought juices were way to strong. I was cutting the store juices by 50%, not only to save money and cut the nic but also to dilute the flavors. The juice I make now days is between 5 and 10% flavorings, most people aim of 20%. and sometimes I cut that back.

 

[Caro123]

I find this a fascinating topic, I chose to smoke a pack to a pack and a half a day for over 40 years, I have been vaping exclusively for about nine weeks I gave up tobacco because it simply did not taste good and was not very pleasurable it was the easiest thing I have ever done. I gave up worrying about cigarette consumption thirty years ago. I will not live forever. I refuse to live my life in fear, still I will minimize the risk as much as possible within reason. I am grateful for reliable information - there has been way too much unreliable information around nicotine and tobacco use over the years and one old man crawling over the bed rails and breaking a hip because he wanted to go out for his puff was just too much polically caused BS for me. The hospital took an 80 year old heavy smoker confined him to a bed and cut him off completely and then wondered why he became confused- psychiatric patients have been heavy tobacco users for years- why did we fail to listen to our patients and demonized tobacco use - money , politics and misinformation.

Living is a high risk occupation- I liked my smokes when I was doing it, I like vaping much more, when I don't like it I will stop. I will keep the flavours low because of the work of dedicated people and I am delighted to see that the risk of diacetyl was pretty darn minimal if I understood it correctly because I am partial to sweet custards- but because I have chosen diy juice I appreciate any factual scientific info I can glean.

 

[blivey]

Main points of the study:

1) Two samples had diaceytl (both from Johnson Creek).

Isn't this the liquid that one of the big tobacco brands use in their cigalikes?

 

[Nermal]

^^^ Yes. Good catch, blivey.

 

[QU1T]

The problem was mainly the use of very high amounts of flavoring compounds in a small minority of the liquids. The levels were higher than what is recommended in food products. In my opinion, this creates an issue considering that very little is known about inhalation of these compounds.
I have always advised vapers to use as little flavoring as possible. Of course, i accept that for most people it is impossible to use flavorless liquids, and i do not suggest flavored to be restricted. However, manufacturers should have some quality measures concerning the amount of flavoring they put into the liquid!!!

Thank you for all your efforts and work.

 

[Kent C]

Isn't this the liquid that one of the big tobacco brands use in their cigalikes?

Blu uses some of the flavors from Johnson Creek. And Blu is owned by Imperial Tobacco. Whether those flavors tested were Blu flavors isn't said. Johnson Creek has their own set of flavors as well, of course.

 

[nicnik]

I am delighted to see that the risk of diacetyl was pretty darn minimal if I understood it correctly because I am partial to sweet custards

Sweet custards are the type of flavors that would have the highest levels of diacetyl and other diketones. I avoid diketones, but I'm not one to advise, seeing as how I tend to overplay many health fears in my head, despite decades of smoking.

Edit: Dr. Farsalinos, who did this study this thread is discussing, recommends that vendors remove diketones from eliquids as an unecessary risk. I realize you may already be aware of this, but thought I'd post it, just in case.

 

[Kent C]

Of course, i accept that for most people it is impossible to use flavorless liquids, and i do not suggest flavored to be restricted.

However, manufacturers should have some quality measures concerning the amount of flavoring they put into the liquid!!!

I look at these two statements like this - I can't see, say, ex-Senator Harkin (or Durbin, Rockefeller, Boxer, et al.) saying the first one.

I can see each of those Senators and others - Zeller, CDC etc., making the second statement, which from their point of view invites regulation.

Fortunately, the good doctor can't really enforce his 'should' on manufacturers, but unfortunately, the Senators, or the FDA, could.... AND, they could use that statement, and the science, as a justification for doing so. (even though most here, see little or no reason for any problems in the conclusions).

 

[Caro123]

Sweet custards are the type of flavors that would have the highest levels of diacetyl and other diketones. I avoid diketones, but I'm not one to advise, seeing as how I tend to overplay many health fears in my head, despite decades of smoking.

Edit: Dr. Farsalinos, who did this study this thread is discussing, recommends that vendors remove diketones from eliquids as an unecessary risk. I realize you may already be aware of this, but thought I'd post it, just in case.

thank you for info yes I am aware BUT I think I may have to go back and reread his findings because it seemed that the risk was minuscule and perhaps I will keep them to a minimum but I suspect the good Doctor was speaking to the most ideal of situations and the very best practice which makes perfect sense but probably wouldn't cause me to lose much sleep if the risk was very tiny which I believe it may have been still I muchly appreciate your thoughts Of course I am only making diy for me and not for others if I were to make for others I would feel obligated to inform -thanks Carolyn

 

[nicnik]

thank you for info yes I am aware BUT I think I may have to go back and reread his findings because it seemed that the risk was minuscule and perhaps I will keep them to a minimum but I suspect the good Doctor was speaking to the most ideal of situations and the very best practice which makes perfect sense but probably wouldn't cause me to lose much sleep if the risk was very tiny which I believe it may have been still I muchly appreciate your thoughts Of course I am only making diy for me and not for others if I were to make for others I would feel obligated to inform -thanks Carolyn

Still not sure you know about the study Dr. Farsalinos did on diketones (not the study discussed on this thread, but plenty of discussion in the forums when the study was released).

Evaluation of electronic cigarette liquids and aerosol for the presence of selected inhalation toxins

 

[Katya]

Blu uses some of the flavors from Johnson Creek. And Blu is owned by Imperial Tobacco. Whether those flavors tested were Blu flavors isn't said. Johnson Creek has their own set of flavors as well, of course.

Yeah, Imperial acquired Blu after Lorillard dumped them.

But Johnson Creek isn't what it used to be either after Republic Tobacco took a 50% stake in the company. Sleeping with the devil.

Johnson Creek - Republic Tobacco Vaping is NOT Smoking? - Spinfuel eMagazine

 

[Kent C]

Yeah, Imperial acquired Blu after Lorillard dumped them.

But Johnson Creek isn't what it used to be either after Republic Tobacco took a 50% stake in the company. Sleeping with the devil.

Johnson Creek - Republic Tobacco Vaping is NOT Smoking? - Spinfuel eMagazine

Knew all that And Johnson Creek isn't what it used to be after it changed it's formula for Tennessee Cured. And a few other flavors. Other than that, it's still a pretty good company - Big Eliquid

 

[Katya]

Knew all that And Johnson Creek isn't what it used to be after it changed it's formula for Tennessee Cured. And a few other flavors. Other than that, it's still a pretty good company - Big Eliquid

Big Eliquid has a nice ring to it!

Hey, nothing personal. Never used JC juices because I don't do 100% VG. It's a business decision. NJoy is also featuring small juice makers in their mainstream Artist's Collection. I do believe in free market.

I don't believe in big government.

 

[Jman8]

None of the products under scrutiny were totally exempt of
potentially toxic compounds. However, for products other than nicotine, the oral acute
toxicity of the e-liquids tested seems to be of minor concern. However, a minority of liquids,
especially those with flavorings, showed particularly high ranges of chemicals, causing
concerns about their potential toxicity in case of chronic oral exposure

Too many posts to respond to, saying too many things I find highly arguable. So, I'll just go with what is mentioned in OP for now. I find this poorly written. 2 "howevers" in a row? The first sentence (above), put another way, and staying accurate is asserting: all eLiquid products contain potentially toxic compounds. And "seems to be of minor concern" is not science, but opinion. ANTZ opinion and from what I can tell among some vapers, that could just as easily translate into "seems to be a major concern."

"Those with flavorings" are 99% of the industry. If scientist that many think is 'on our side' (or more likely neutral) is saying this, it doesn't bode well for the industry on the political level. On the reality level, flavors are always going to be desired, and if legal market can't find way to make that work and maintain scientific integrity, then another market, of the less legal kind, will make it work.

This idea of "we just don't know" right now is perhaps honest, but laced with ignorance of the politically blind variety. Of the things we think we know, we are routinely ignorant/blind and it shows daily on any study coming out about what is seemingly already known to us. Pick a substance, any substance, and find me the one that is harmless. I bet you can't. Pretty sure, most here won't even try. I also have standing bet that says the more knowledge we gain, and the more regulations we employ, will lead to more incidents of harm than what occurred with vapers between 2008 and 2013. If you are the type of vaper that chooses to be in what you call "the know," then by all means, go for products you believe conform to your personal requirements. But to suggest this needs to be industry wide for all vapers, then please consider my standing bet.

There will never (ever) be a perfectly safe vape. And to take that straw man down a notch, there will never again be products that were as safe as what we had a couple years ago. The only way to establish that last statement that I'm aware of is by incidents of harm. I predict there will be more incidents in the years to come. Partially, to perhaps mostly, because science will be seen as divided on this for awhile (perhaps forever) and thus it will look a lot like a popularity contest, as in "don't use Johnson Creek stuff, cause they got cooties." And partially, to what I believe to be mostly the reason, because human (so called) knowledge will think it has handle on 'minor concerns' and sure of notion that 'major concerns' exist, and that now that must be avoided, while vaping must go on. If that one sentence explanation doesn't make sense, I'm glad to elaborate, as I am convinced it will be our undoing now that we appear to be headed full steam ahead (pun intended) in this direction. The good news, politically speaking, is that while we will be, in actuality, doing this to ourselves, the politics will allow us to scapegoat ANTZ as to why we can't seem to get things just right going forward. Ya know, now that the trend of vaping flavors has been done away with in the legal market. It's going to convenient that we get to blame ANTZ for that occurring.