US Vs UK in Relation to Vaping

[Arainbow Dash]

Hi all.

So I have been taking a look around these forums since joining and can see that there is a great deal of concern, particularly in the US, as to what governments might do in reaction to this new product. Here in the UK, there was never a talk of a ban per say. What they are likely to do and what it is looking like now, is that the industry will become regulated to ensure that the appliances are manufactured to a certain standard and that the juice is also upheld to certain qualities, dosages etc. In the US, Im not entirely sure what is going on. The situation with the FDA and the Government is a little confusing. But, I can give some insight into possibly why our countries are acting in such differing ways.

Here in the UK, our government was quick to use caution when addressing E-Cigs. As the ingredients were mainly harmless, they were reluctant to put the foot down and ban them. As such, the MHA (Medical Health Association) and BMA (British Medical Association) conducted surveys and studies into the products and what action people should take, splitting that survey into Medical Establishments, regular people and the retailers of the products themselves. This of course showed that many people, regular people, overwhelmingly wanted nothing to be done. However, health charities and institutions wanted a 1 year wait and careful planning of legislation.

I believe one of the reasons for the more cautious and reasoned response is down to our NHS. With a publicly funded health system, our medical care bodies make profits not by keeping people sick and selling them medication, but my preventing illness and curing people as quickly and in as large a number as possible. The more people they cure, the less it eats into their budget, the more savings they make, the more profit the NHS makes.

This is a stark contrast to the USA where it seems that the pharmaceutical industry makes money by keeping people sick and selling them products. This is true with the NRT that is available. The Pharma industry in the USA makes a killing on NRT that is ultimately only effective for 10% of people in the world.

This is just what I can glean from what I have heard and thought you yanks might like to hear the differing perspectives on healthcare and why I love my NHS.

 

[Bullette the Cowdog]

Thank you for your post.

Please explain to us Yanks how your system works.

Questions such as: How is the doctor paid? What is the doctor's incentive? Does the patient have a specific doctor assigned or can the patient choose his own doctor? How long does it take to get an appointment to see a doctor? A specialist? How is a patient admitted to hospital? How is it determined when surgery is needed?

Yes. Our system is a capitalist system. It is driven by profit. What drives your system?

 

[Arainbow Dash]

Thank you for your post.

Please explain to us Yanks how your system works.

Questions such as: How is the doctor paid? What is the doctor's incentive? Does the patient have a specific doctor assigned or can the patient choose his own doctor? How long does it take to get an appointment to see a doctor? A specialist? How is a patient admitted to hospital? How is it determined when surgery is needed?

Yes. Our system is a capitalist system. It is driven by profit. What drives your system?

Just so you know, we dont use the term 'yank' as an insult, thats not what its meant to be. Sorry if that offended you...that wasnt my intent.

Doctors here get paid a reasonable wage depending on where the scale they are. Doctors in training earn from £22k a year at the start of their training up to 27k a year when they are in specialist training. Specialty and Associate Specialists earn between £36 and £70k a year. Consultants earn between £74 and £100k a year. GPs earn anywhere from £53 to £81k a year depending on experience and time served as a GP. They are paid via a local health authority that governs health care in a given region, whose funding comes from the government. We all pay a specific tax here called National insurance. This is the tax that pays for things such as they NHS.

A doctors incentive is to keep his patients healthy. This incentive is enforced by the government who provide incentive bonuses. For example, a doctor who can get a certain percentage of his patients to quit smoking will receive a bonus to his wage. Further to this, by keeping people healthy through preventative care, they are able to put those savings into other areas of treatment.

A patient can chose where he wishes to be treated and can also select the doctor he wishes to see. There is now law or policy preventing free choice of a doctor. And getting an appointment isnt a long wait. If its a serious matter, you can get an appointment that day, as most GPs will reserve slots later in the day for emergencies. If its a severe emergency, the doctor can and will usually see the person right away, particularly if they are in alot of pain. The longest I have EVER had to wait for a doctors appointment was a couple of days. It all depends on the severity of the issue you are having. Something more severe will be seen before something less severe.

If you are referred to a specialist you would probably be looking at a 1 to two week wait, again, this is dependent on the severity of the condition. For example, you might have a long wait for a hip operation where as if you need to see someone about cancer treatments, its a very quick process.

Patients are admitted to hospital through specialists, A&E and in some cases even by the GP if the matter is serious enough. As to surgery, its up to those qualified to determine whether surgery is required or not.

Ultimately, what drives our system are doctors that dont care about profit in so much as they care about wanting to make people better and look after them. Recently, the government tried to pass legislation that would hand over more of the NHS to private competition, the Doctors, nurses and medical associations here in the UK were the first to protest. They like working in a system where they dont have to worry about insurance qualifications and can concentrate on treating people and making them better.

 

[Bullette the Cowdog]

Thank you for that explanation.

Now I just can't figure out how a UK doctor can get his Rolls or Lamborghini with a system like that. And how can he pay for his third wife's plastic surgery? You guys just don't understand what's truly important here in the US.

 

[Arainbow Dash]

Thank you for that explanation.

Now I just can't figure out how a UK doctor can get his Rolls or Lamborghini with a system like that. And how can he pay for his third wife's plastic surgery? You guys just don't understand what's truly important here in the US.

Hehe, yeah, I guess we are a bit slow on the uptake here in the UK.

 

[Orobas]

Our system is backwards. Between the FDA and BP approving and marketing useless crap, like eyedrops whose potential side effects include heart attack and rectal bleeding, it's a wonder any of us are making it out alive.

I have been waiting years to try and get my mouth fixed. Not only do I have wisdom teeth that need yanking, I also have TMJ which prevents me from opening my jaw wider than an inch. Now, three of these wisdom teeth are still in the gums, which means they'd be billed medical. The fourth is peeking out, which means it would be billed dental. This means I have to find an oral surgeon who participates in both my medical and dental insurance plans. There are none around here. My husband just finished paying off a thousand dollar bill from the local oral surgeon because our insurance company seems to be of the opinion that he should be able to sit quietly with nothing but local anesthetic while they literally dig a rotten mollar out of his jaw.

We have a major insurance company, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, not some bumpkin company, either.

Meanwhile we have republicans who want less government (but wants the government to dictate my reproductive rights and who i can and can't marry) who are up in arms at the prospect of me being able to actually afford to get the help I need, be it my teeth, my reproductive health, or mental health. They lobby so hard to try and make us keep our unplanned, unwanted balls of cells the size of the tip of my pinky, but once the kid is born they lose interest entirely in their personal welfare.

Welcome to America, where the rights of purely theoretical children trump the rights and needs of the living.

 

[Arainbow Dash]

Our system is backwards. Between the FDA and BP approving and marketing useless crap, like eyedrops whose potential side effects include heart attack and rectal bleeding, it's a wonder any of us are making it out alive.

I have been waiting years to try and get my mouth fixed. Not only do I have wisdom teeth that need yanking, I also have TMJ which prevents me from opening my jaw wider than an inch. Now, three of these wisdom teeth are still in the gums, which means they'd be billed medical. The fourth is peeking out, which means it would be billed dental. This means I have to find an oral surgeon who participates in both my medical and dental insurance plans. There are none around here. My husband just finished paying off a thousand dollar bill from the local oral surgeon because our insurance company seems to be of the opinion that he should be able to sit quietly with nothing but local anesthetic while they literally dig a rotten mollar out of his jaw.

We have a major insurance company, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, not some bumpkin company, either.

Meanwhile we have republicans who want less government (but wants the government to dictate my reproductive rights and who i can and can't marry) who are up in arms at the prospect of me being able to actually afford to get the help I need, be it my teeth, my reproductive health, or mental health. They lobby so hard to try and make us keep our unplanned, unwanted balls of cells the size of the tip of my pinky, but once the kid is born they lose interest entirely in their personal welfare.

Welcome to America, where the rights of purely theoretical children trump the rights and needs of the living.

The problem as I see it in America, isnt the health care provided when you get it, its the HMOs and insurance companies trying everything in their power to prevent or refuse having to pay out to their customers. And even when they do decide to pay out, they make their clients jump through hoops to get it.

Over here, our medical equipment might be a year older, but, the healthcare received is top quality and provided for by people who actually care about the work that they do. Its not just a job to them, its something worth while.

I hope that you manage to get your teeth and jaw sorted out soon. Mouth problems are no fun.

 

[meli.]

Now I just can't figure out how a UK doctor can get his Rolls or Lamborghini with a system like that. And how can he pay for his third wife's plastic surgery? You guys just don't understand what's truly important here in the US.

hehe, our GP's, Specialists and Consultants are also free to operate in Private Practice and Government run Specialist Training courses for Foreign Med students . This where they really make their money. A specialist consultant at our golf club drives an Aston Martin Vantage has a Morgan Roadster for his wife, his son potters about in a little SL Merc. He is not alone and most have their priorities in exactly the same order as your Dr's out there.

The UK National Health System has never been known to make a Profit. Ever. They waste Billions hand over fist, repeatedly. We have a health system that runs on a lottery basis, if you live in the correct Health Trust for your condition you may get the correct medication for your condition, otherwise you're stuffed. If you land up in hospital with a poor track record, you're lucky to come out alive.
And Not all health trusts care about their patients, the Elderly often get the short straw. Left in their beds for hours on end, food and water placed out of reach. It's an ugly picture and a nightmare for some families, I don't even want to think how awful this is for those that do not have loved ones to check on them because the Nurses are too busy, under paid and over worked.
If you can afford Private Health Insurance it's marginally better.

Our National Health Service is free at the point of contact but it is Not Free. We pay huge amounts of money every month in National Insurance Taxes for this service. Some of us pay More than others, irrespective of whether we Use this service or not or whether we have Private Health Insurance or not.

The British are well known for having moderate, liberal attitudes in life. They seem to have a common sense approach to rather a lot of things until something terrible happens then they Bolt the door and we're never to speak of it again or blame someone, anyone in current or previous government for not taking the correct steps in preventing a crisis to begin with. Then we'll waste more tax payer money on Inquiries and say 'This must never be allowed to happen again' 'til the next time that is.

All that said when it comes to tobacco, smoking cessation and harm reduction they do have a relatively reasonable attitude. They do recognise that Harm Reduction is better than nothing at all. They also recognised how many pubs and the like failed nationally after the Smoking Ban was Enforced which sadly coincided with the financial crisis. It didn't help matters when smokers decided they could drink more for less and smoke freely in their homes. Perhaps the Government sees vaping as new revenue source, time will tell. Maybe I'm just being a tad cynical.

 

[Arainbow Dash]

hehe, our GP's, Specialists and Consultants are also free to operate in Private Practice and Government run Specialist Training courses for Foreign Med students . This where they really make their money. A specialist consultant at our golf club drives an Aston Martin Vantage has a Morgan Roadster for his wife, his son potters about in a little SL Merc. He is not alone and most have their priorities in exactly the same order as your Dr's out there.

The UK National Health System has never been known to make a Profit. Ever. They waste Billions hand over fist, repeatedly. We have a health system that runs on a lottery basis, if you live in the correct Health Trust for your condition you may get the correct medication for your condition, otherwise you're stuffed. If you land up in hospital with a poor track record, you're lucky to come out alive.
And Not all health trusts care about their patients, the Elderly often get the short straw. Left in their beds for hours on end, food and water placed out of reach. It's an ugly picture and a nightmare for some families, I don't even want to think how awful this is for those that do not have loved ones to check on them because the Nurses are too busy, under paid and over worked.
If you can afford Private Health Insurance it's marginally better.

Our National Health Service is free at the point of contact but it is Not Free. We pay huge amounts of money every month in National Insurance Taxes for this service. Some of us pay More than others, irrespective of whether we Use this service or not or whether we have Private Health Insurance or not.

The British are well known for having moderate, liberal attitudes in life. They seem to have a common sense approach to rather a lot of things until something terrible happens then they Bolt the door and we're never to speak of it again or blame someone, anyone in current or previous government for not taking the correct steps in preventing a crisis to begin with. Then we'll waste more tax payer money on Inquiries and say 'This must never be allowed to happen again' 'til the next time that is.

All that said when it comes to tobacco, smoking cessation and harm reduction they do have a relatively reasonable attitude. They do recognise that Harm Reduction is better than nothing at all. They also recognised how many pubs and the like failed nationally after the Smoking Ban was Enforced which sadly coincided with the financial crisis. It didn't help matters when smokers decided they could drink more for less and smoke freely in their homes. Perhaps the Government sees vaping as new revenue source, time will tell. Maybe I'm just being a tad cynical.

Maybe a tad bit cynical. I would rather pay taxes then extortionate amounts of money to a HMO that may or may not approve medical treatment on a whim.

 

[meli.]

I don't know where you live, but in my area our Health Trust notoriously chooses to approve treatments on a Whim. And I don't mean ingrown toenails or your choice of Champix over patches I mean treatments and medications that can prolong Quality of life.

The endless paperwork one has to submit to these Health Trusts to try and make them see sense and approve the use of such treatments, whilst in neighboring Trusts they're readily available without question or hindrance. And there are no guarantees, everything is decided on a case by case basis. If you don't have someone in your corner fighting for your right to access these treatments, you're left out to dry and they're all too eager to pass the buck onto Social Services when it concerns the Elderly.

'Choice within the NHS' is not a true statement. I'd much rather see a system like that in Australia, implemented here.
Private insurance part subsided by the government & employers and No One is restricted. They also offer 'free' care for those that cannot afford treatment. What they don't do is give it freely, willy nilly, to all and sundry, that just happened to pop off a plane this morning without any requirement to contribute financially to the country in anyway.
Unfortunately our all our politicians are too lily-livered to tackle the NHS and would rather pursue Soft targets in order to make up for shortfalls in their coffers. There are many things I love about the UK, the NHS is not one of them. Well, actually that and the weather.;D

Still, this isn't about the state of failing health services, it's about Vaping. Thankfully, I don't have too much to complain about when it comes to that.

 

[brummyjon]

The UK National Health System has never been known to make a Profit. Ever.

The NHS was never intended to make a profit. Ever. That is what makes it different. It is one of the greatest social engineering projects of the last 100 years, anywhere in the world. Maybe you don't realise that when you pay your £7 for a prescription, you are often getting hundreeds of pounds worth of drugs, all subsidised, so that there is minimum impact at the point of use.

As for successive governments not 'taking on' the NHS, if you mean abolishing it, then that is because there would be almost no support for this in the UK. If you mean reforming it, then this is happening all the time.

 

[meli.]

Albeit unsuccessfully.

 

[Bubba]

Meanwhile we have republicans who want less government (but wants the government to dictate my reproductive rights and who i can and can't marry) who are up in arms at the prospect of me being able to actually afford to get the help I need, be it my teeth, my reproductive health, or mental health. They lobby so hard to try and make us keep our unplanned, unwanted balls of cells the size of the tip of my pinky, but once the kid is born they lose interest entirely in their personal welfare.

Welcome to America, where the rights of purely theoretical children trump the rights and needs of the living.

This is NOT the place for that left wing liberal rhetoric. Leave that trash at home. No one asked about your thoughts on abortion. I won't, however, let that go unanswered - here or anywhere else. You need to understand that your definition of an "unplanned, unwanted ball of cells" applies to you as well right? If you're defining it that way, we're all subject to abortion at any time, it's really just a question of how many trimesters. First, third, 1,235?

 

[Arainbow Dash]

The NHS was never intended to make a profit. Ever. That is what makes it different. It is one of the greatest social engineering projects of the last 100 years, anywhere in the world. Maybe you don't realise that when you pay your £7 for a prescription, you are often getting hundreeds of pounds worth of drugs, all subsidised, so that there is minimum impact at the point of use.

As for successive governments not 'taking on' the NHS, if you mean abolishing it, then that is because there would be almost no support for this in the UK. If you mean reforming it, then this is happening all the time.

I think that Tony Benn put it best when he said that if any, ANY government tried to take apart the NHS...there would be a civil war over it. And he was dead right.