USA Today: States target e-cigarettes as potential revenue source

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Sundodger

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Sirius

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SimianSteam

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Ok, let's try a different tack.

Explain to me why eCigs SHOULDN'T be taxed. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "They Save Lives" reasoning. Not that they don't, but it's still all voluntary, and nicotine consumption remains a luxury, not a necessity. Let's hear some reasonable arguments against taxing eCigs in some manner.
 

NorthOfAtlanta

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Ok, let's try a different tack.

Explain to me why eCigs SHOULDN'T be taxed. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "They Save Lives" reasoning. Not that they don't, but it's still all voluntary, and nicotine consumption remains a luxury, not a necessity. Let's hear some reasonable arguments against taxing eCigs in some manner.

According to this logic, sodas, coffee, any thing that is not a need for survival is OK to tax?
 

SimianSteam

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Taxing every sale on the internet would cover everything.
That's already coming. Amazon taxes me for every order now, a universal Internet Sales Tax is definitely in the near future.
According to this logic, sodas, coffee, any thing that is not a need for survival is OK to tax?

Most of those are already covered by a standard sales tax.

Like I said, I'm interested in hearing arguments why eCigs shouldn't be taxed. Pointing out other items that aren't taxed isn't an argument, it's a redirection.
 

Vaslovik

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I've long believed that the day will come when they will bill us for oxygen. I'm serious. I really believe they will, and at some point they will install a chip and valve in our windpipes so they can meter what we breathe, and cut us off if we don't pay up. They will also tax us for the CO2 we exhale so they will have us coming and going.

Something has to change in a very big way, and it may require significant unpleasantness.
 

SimianSteam

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I've long believed that the day will come when they will bill us for oxygen. I'm serious. I really believe they will, and at some point they will install a chip and valve in our windpipes so they can meter what we breathe, and cut us off if we don't pay up. They will also tax us for the CO2 we exhale so they will have us coming and going.

Something has to change in a very big way, and it may require significant unpleasantness.

I don't think it'll ever get to the that point. It'd be past the tipping point. There'll never be a revolution in this country because on the whole we've just got it too good. We're fed, have all these luxuries like Nintendo and color TV (and I'm sounding old fashioned on purpose there. LoL.) People just haven't been pushed far enough to actually fight back, and the government is very good at balancing things out to keep the lower class down without making them suffer so much that they unite and revolt.
 

SimianSteam

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Proving a negative is impossible, please list any reason why they should be taxed beyond other reasonably safe product such as the ones I listed.

So the onus is entirely on me because I spoke first?

I already made my point. Like it or not eCigs are the child of the tobacco industry, even if they are a ....... child. No, they're not controlled by BT, but they're an evolution of it, and will eventually be given a luxury tax just like cigarettes are. Most luxury items that are viewed as indulgent, like tobacco and alcohol, are taxed. Ecigs shouldn't be exempt.

As I'm not an economist I can't say why caffeine isn't taxed as well. Maybe someone else has the answer to that one.

I'm not a rich man. If eJuice is taxed like cigarettes are I'll have to cut back my consumption to be able to afford it. That'd suck, but I know that vaping is not something I need to do, just something I like to do. I really think more people need to recognize the difference there. The options are not just vaping or going back to smoking. You could vape less, or, god forbid, just quit.
 
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AgentAnia

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Proving a negative is impossible, please list any reason why they should be taxed beyond other reasonably safe product such as the ones I listed.

So the onus is entirely on me because I spoke first?

From "The 10 Commandments of Logic":
8. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him that is questioning the claim. (Burden of proof reversal)

I already made my point. Like it or not eCigs are the child of the tobacco industry, even if they are a ....... child.

Saying ecigs are a child of the tobacco industry is like saying automobiles are a child of the horse-drawn-buggy industry. Not relevant. Justifying taxation on a product because it evolved from another already taxed product is illogical.

No, they're not controlled by BT, but they're an evolution of it, and will eventually be given a luxury tax just like cigarettes are. Most luxury items that are viewed as indulgent, like tobacco and alcohol, are taxed. Ecigs shouldn't be exempt.

Do not confuse "luxury tax" with "sin tax." A) Something is unnecessary and indulgent but desirable ---> luxury tax. B) Something is deemed bad for you and/or bad for society and needs to be discouraged ---> sin tax. Alcohol is taxed under B, not A.
 

skoony

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cigarette taxes have never funded anything.its all thrown into the general fund.
the reason government needs to get more and more money is because of all
there baby boomer employees that are retiring into there underfunded or not funded at all
pensions and health benefits.
in minnesota we have tax levies for the school districts on the ballot quite frequently.
supposedly for our children's education.the thing is the money they get far outpaces
the amount actually spent on the students.its going somewhere.
regards
mike
 

AgentAnia

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All I'm asking is that instead of tearing down my statements with spurious logic try making some reasonable arguments of your own. I'm not a zealot either way, and I'd love to hear reasons why eCigs shouldn't be taxed. It seems like a no duh to me, but then again I might be missing something.

Ecigs *are* taxed, through general sales tax, where such laws apply. (Also I'm pretty sure other taxes have been paid along the line from manufacturers up through the distribution chain.) :2c: Ecigs should *not* be subject to tobacco tax because they are not (despite what FDA would have you believe) a tobacco product.

I think the crux of the argument here is whether ecigs should be subjected to tobacco-as-sin tax, not whether they should or shouldn't be taxed at all. Good grief, almost everything is taxed at some point in one way or another!

(I believe my logic is neither spurious nor even specious, but isn't it great we live in the country of the First Amendment!)
 

AgentAnia

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cigarette taxes have never funded anything.its all thrown into the general fund.

Not true in all cases, but in far too many instances, revenue from tobacco taxes are indeed (and contrary to enabling legislation) rolled into general funds and used to finance basic services and programs. A shameful secret most governments do not want exposed.

the reason government needs to get more and more money is because of all there baby boomer employees that are retiring into there underfunded or not funded at all pensions and health benefits....

Let's be sure we put the blame where it belongs: on governments and private-pension administrators who misused the contributions entrusted to their care by workers, which is the main reason pension funds are now coming up short.

I worked long years and made conributions out of my salary in good faith to various governmental and private-sector pension programs, expecting to receive the promised benefits when I retired. I retired. And now I'm screwed.
 

Vocalek

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So the onus is entirely on me because I spoke first?

I already made my point. Like it or not eCigs are the child of the tobacco industry, even if they are a ....... child. No, they're not controlled by BT, but they're an evolution of it, and will eventually be given a luxury tax just like cigarettes are. Most luxury items that are viewed as indulgent, like tobacco and alcohol, are taxed. Ecigs shouldn't be exempt.

As I'm not an economist I can't say why caffeine isn't taxed as well. Maybe someone else has the answer to that one.

I'm not a rich man. If eJuice is taxed like cigarettes are I'll have to cut back my consumption to be able to afford it. That'd suck, but I know that vaping is not something I need to do, just something I like to do. I really think more people need to recognize the difference there. The options are not just vaping or going back to smoking. You could vape less, or, god forbid, just quit.

I'm not sure that YOU recognize the difference. You say this is not something you need to do, but what makes you think everyone is just like you?

If you do some exploring on this forum, you will find posts from plenty of people who describe how they become dysfunctional when they stop using nicotine. As David Krogh described in Smoking, The Artificial Passion, "...the smoker begins to turn into something slightly different: a person desirous of his controller, edgy, hostile, depressed, confused. Behold man."

In my case, despite the fact that I did everything I was supposed to do...attended the "learn how to stop smoking class", got the prescription for the patch, stepped down from 21 to 14 to 7 mg in dosage as prescribed, when I took off the last patch, it only took two days to turn me into a basket case, curled up in a ball on my couch, sleeping 12 hours a day, uninterested in personal hygiene, and crying my eyes out without really understanding why.

When I got in my car to go to the doctor, I nearly caused an accident when I looked left, looked right, looked left again and pulled out, only to hear a horn blast, the screech of brakes, and looked in my rear view mirror to see a car inches away from my own. My eyes had probably seen the car coming from the right, but it did not register in my brain. I had several more of these episodes when pulling out of a parking spot or making a left turn. As you might imagine, they were very frightening.

I can be stubborn when I want to be, and I stubbornly refused to stop quitting. Call it "will power" if you like. I kept waiting for those "temporary" withdrawal symptoms to stop. After 6 months, when they had not done so, I went back to the doctor who prescribed the anti-depressant that fixed up the sleeping problem and the depression, and asked her to give me some way to get back the 50 or so IQ points I seemed to have misplaced when I stopped using nicotine. When she told me there was nothing she could prescribe for that, I told her that I couldn't afford to lose my job, and so I was making a conscious decision to resume smoking. My boss had been very understanding about what I was going through for 6 months, but now I was being assigned to work onsite at the client's place of business and my performance was suffering from my inability to concentrate and pay attention.

So, SimianSteam, regardless of what you believe, people are not interchangeable. One person's mere want is another person's minor need, and is still another person's vital need.

Because nicotine improves the ability to concentrate and pay attention, improves mood, improves visual memory, and relieves anxiety, people with special needs in those areas find that nicotine helps them be able to function normally. Those taking anti-psychotic medication often fight terrible side-effects, and nicotine seems to help keep those side-effects under control.

Nicotine analogs are being studied to treat a wide variety of diseases from Parkinson's to Tourette's Syndrome to Ulcerative Colitis.

So I say, if we are going to put a luxury tax on anti-depressants, anti-anxiety medications, drugs to treat ADHD, MCI, dementia, or any other disease with symptoms nicotine can help to control, then--and only then--we can think of nicotine as a luxury. Many people are using nicotine as a low-cost, readily available, self-medication that is darn near free of side effects--especially when compared with drugs typically prescribed to treat those conditions. (Think suicide, think uncontrollable muscle movements, weight gain, etc. etc.)

Some people can get by with using Nicotine Replacement Therapy (NRT) products as their long-term substitute for smoking, but not everyone can. And, again, there's no luxury tax on Nicoderm, Nicotrol, or Nicorette.

Since e-cigarettes are closest in design to pharmaceutical nicotine inhalers, and as far as we know are no more hazardous to health than NRTs, I see no reason to pretend that they are a tobacco product and include them in the Draconian laws that are applied those products.
 

rothenbj

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I have always scratched my head. On one hand "they" tell us smoking is bad for you and you should quit to live a healthier life. Based on this statement, if everything runs as "they say it should" the day comes when everyone quits smoking and there is no more revenue from cigarette taxes. So you would think they are not going to be counting on that cash cow to continue forever, right?

So when we do stop smoking cigarettes, they justify taxing ecigs because they need to replace the revenue from the lack of cigarette sales. Wow! So what this tells me is that they have become accustomed to their standard of living based on something "they" have preached for decades now that smoking should be totally obliterated. And in case anyone pops in, no, vaping is NOT smoking!!!

Look at this from another angle. They have use the excuse that nearly $200b a year is the cost of smoking between health issues and lost productivity to constantly increase the tax on cigarettes. If those costs are actually true, anything that vaping is costing in lost cigarette revenue would be offset in multiples. They should be subsidizing vaping instead of trying tyo tax it.

However, I suspect that $200b is just a smokescreen to use to further punish smokers.
 
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