He's addicted to writing bills about eCigs.
"Sorry I'm so cranky today but it's been at least two hours since I tried to ban eCigs. Let me just get a quick fix."
Utah bill (HB 112) by Paul Ray would ban the manufacture and sale of all e-cigs that dont contain pharmaceutical grade nicotine, require license to m
- Thread starter Bill Godshall
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
He's addicted to writing bills about eCigs.
"Sorry I'm so cranky today but it's been at least two hours since I tried to ban eCigs. Let me just get a quick fix."
At the last possible moment, this passed the senate. There was no time for it to go back to the house.
Sine Die
Sine Die
Last edited:
The bill is dead. It as a nail biter until the very end. For anyone who wants the play by play, it went like this:
As reported previously, the House approved a Sub 4, which was supported by the Utah Vapers Association. This infuriated the bill's sponsor to no end.
By the time the bill reached the Senate Committee, Ray was presenting Sub 8. We were not surprised, because Sub 4 basically gutted the version he was trying to pass.
The Senate Committee decided to send this Sub 8 to interim for further study. Ray was reported as being "perplexed" that the committee had "voted against the children" by doing so -- but we breathed a sigh of relief.
Nonetheless, somehow Ray convinced another senator to sponsor a Sub 9 and (I don't understand this fully) *Sub 10* for presentation on the Senate floor. It was placed at the bottom of the agenda.
We watched the agenda change throughout the day, with this bill rising and falling on the list.
With less than an hour in the session, it fell to the bottom, and we didn't think they would get to it. Approximately 15 minutes before the end of the session, it was bumped up to the top. Approximately 8 minutes later, Sub 10 was introduced, lied about ("this is the version that was agreed upon"), and passed the Senate with little discussion. There might have been a debate about it with one Senator asking, "What does this bill do? I've received some emails about this..." but he was shut down quickly.
It was then sent back to the House for final approval.
It was in this moment, when all hope was lost, that Isildur, son of the king, took up his father's sword.
Ok not really. Sorry.
The House did not act on the bill after it was sent back to them. It appears they simply ran out of time by the time they completed voting on other bills that were sent to them in the last 5 minutes of session.
I don't know if this was an honest attempt to get the bill rammed through, or if the Senate and House were doing it to infuriate either the bill's sponsor... or us... but we went through a lot of ejuice in that last hour.
Needless to say, we are vaping a lot easier in Utah today. It seems clear that nothing involving Ray can be trusted. He could have easily accepted Sub 4 and presented it to the committee and got it passed through the Senate and back to the house, but just kept pushing and changing things and convincing people to cram this bill down everyone's throat. Ultimately that's how the bill failed.
I'm not sure how but we really need to work to prevent him getting elected again.
In the end it was Rep. Ray's desire to write subs to the bill that caused it's demise.
What we objected to:
There are 29 counties in the state. No supplier or manufacturer would be able to comply with 29 different sets of regulatons.
We worked long and hard with one county health dept. (Davis County) to develop a set of regulation that we all could live with. Rep. Ray refused to allow those regulations to be part of the bill.
Sub 4 (which passed in the house) did not allow counties to make regulations, sub 10 (which passed in the senate) did (as did the origional bill). Neither sub passed in both chambers.
What we objected to:
There are 29 counties in the state. No supplier or manufacturer would be able to comply with 29 different sets of regulatons.
We worked long and hard with one county health dept. (Davis County) to develop a set of regulation that we all could live with. Rep. Ray refused to allow those regulations to be part of the bill.
Sub 4 (which passed in the house) did not allow counties to make regulations, sub 10 (which passed in the senate) did (as did the origional bill). Neither sub passed in both chambers.
Last edited:
Start here: ht tps://www.facebook.com/pages/Defeat-Paul-Ray-Political-Action-Page/363186063796455 (broken link)
This guy really has to go. It seems his only strategy is to wait for the last possible moment so that no one has a chance to look at what they are signing, or able to respond.
He has announced that he is seeking re-election (no suprise there).
I was suprised this year that the bill made an appearance so early, and had a feeling after some of the comments he made, after the senate committee, that something was still afoot.
He needs to go, sooner rather than later. I'm rather suprised that he was able to get a senator to go along with his game.
It began with the forging of the great bills...
... Nine... Nine Substitutes were gifted to the race of men.
But they were all of them, deceived... for another Sub was made...
In the fires of Mount Clearfield, Ray forged - in secret - a master Sub that would be presented after all the others...
If you want to see the slimy thing the Senate did and how they lied about it being agreed on, it's here:
Senate - Day 45 2014 Part 3 - Mar 13th, 2014
Senate - Day 45 2014 Part 3 - Mar 13th, 2014
Well, it's official. He has thrown his hat back into the ring:
h ttp://elections.utah.gov/Media/Default/2012%20Candidate%20Filings%20-%20Tuesday%2013th/Paul%20Ray%20State%20House%2013.pdf
So far no opponent. There was one, but he withdrew.
h ttp://elections.utah.gov/Media/Default/2012%20Candidate%20Filings%20-%20Tuesday%2013th/Paul%20Ray%20State%20House%2013.pdf
So far no opponent. There was one, but he withdrew.
Here's the Deseret news write up if anyone is interested.
http://m.deseretnews.com/article/86...//www.google.com/?ref=https://www.google.com/
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
http://m.deseretnews.com/article/86...//www.google.com/?ref=https://www.google.com/
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Happy to see that the Des News actually bothered to talk to Aaron
I like how the tone of panic has calmed down since the bill didn't pass. Before and during the legislative session it was like "OMG OMG THE KIDS" and now it's like "Oh well it didn't pass. Meh." lol
ABC 4 coverage
http://www.4utah.com/story/d/story/...tions-still-come/79577/2O24ldbXGkyS020EOFiYyg
I don't understand his logic. He doesn't have any faith in the ID procedures in place?
No special requirements to buy beer or cigarettes. Why the visceral hatred of ecigs? Does he really believe they are worse than smoking?
Guess somethings just defy logic, especially when it comes to Rep. Ray.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
http://www.4utah.com/story/d/story/...tions-still-come/79577/2O24ldbXGkyS020EOFiYyg
I don't understand his logic. He doesn't have any faith in the ID procedures in place?
No special requirements to buy beer or cigarettes. Why the visceral hatred of ecigs? Does he really believe they are worse than smoking?
Guess somethings just defy logic, especially when it comes to Rep. Ray.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Exactly I have never had my ID scanned to buy a pack of cigarettes or any quantity of beer. Quite frankly when they scan my ID at a bar it has such a big-brotherish feel to it that I really don't like going out anymore.
Elctronicstix in Ogden cards me every time I come in and while I understand why they do it I always roll my eyes at the notion that someone younger than my kids insist on seeing my ID. Other area stores don't card me, and I appreciate that. It was cute when I was 30 but I am now over 45. Good grief, enough is enough.
Then some have asked me "What's wrong with having to prove your age?" And it's because I don't want to be asked for my papers by random police either. I don't know what advantage those ID scanners are unless you are too stupid to read a date on a driver's license. No hate for the idea but when they implement scanners at the gas station that used to sell me smokes, I'll fall in line with the idea that it's reasonable to scan ID for something shown to be 100x less harmful.
I need to get out of Utah, I am so sick of this place.
hell, I've been carded at ENS, and I'm 73!
LOL that's awesome. I just want to know what problem it solves to card a 73 year old... or a nearly 50 year old. Asking for ID is ostensibly for the purpose of ensuring that the person is older than 19. As much as I would love to believe that I can be mistaken for someone under 35, I know it's nonsense. There are varying opinions on the youthfulness of my appearance but I am clearly not a teenager.
Sorry to say, I love all of our local shops but I pretty much stick to the ones who understand this and don't make me dig out my ID every time I walk in the place. Those are the ones who get most of my business.
Unless I'm paying with cash which is typical for me. Like I said, I get it. Vapers are so over-regulated that it's easy to get scared and start doing stupid things like cardining 50 and 70 year olds when they walk in the door. I don't understand why we should play along and accept ID scanners as well. The stores that implement those at the door will not likely see me a second time -- unless they're going to be a vapor lounge with a diner or coffee shop. I could totally go for that. But just to walk in and buy a coil head and wicking material? I don't think so.
I'm not picking on that one particular store (note well, I love those guys they're awesome) -- but as far as I know they don't offer samples there anyway so... what problem does it solve. Check ID with purchase for everyone using a card or if they appear to be younger than 35 or something... but this "Show me your papers" thing is over the top. I think it just reinforces Rep. Ray's hysteria and desire to control the world.
Last edited:
I have to agree with Bramble here. I'm 51. I didn't get carded when I was buying cigarettes a year ago. I don't get carded for any alcohol purchases, even at the state run liquor stores.
Even with the coded restrictions of online sales of tobacco, most online vendors don't pay any attention to it, and you can purchase cigars and loose tobacco via the internet.
Why should it be any different for vaping supplies?
This is what irritates me about what Ray is trying to do here. Nothing in any of the bill that failed will accomplish what he claimed (keeping them out of the hands of kids). All it will really do is make criminals out of adults that wish to partake of a perfectly legal substance. Or make it much more difficult for us.
Even with the coded restrictions of online sales of tobacco, most online vendors don't pay any attention to it, and you can purchase cigars and loose tobacco via the internet.
Why should it be any different for vaping supplies?
This is what irritates me about what Ray is trying to do here. Nothing in any of the bill that failed will accomplish what he claimed (keeping them out of the hands of kids). All it will really do is make criminals out of adults that wish to partake of a perfectly legal substance. Or make it much more difficult for us.
This is what I have tried to explain to our representatives and senators. When the government wants to restrict a freedom, they need to MAKE SURE it solves a real problem. So for that to happen there has to first be a real problem, AND that the steps taken will reasonably SOLVE it. They don't seem to get this. They think if it's in their power to prevent one teen from buying a Protank, it's worth legislating it.
I don't get IDd at the liquor store either, the pubs that card me only do it once and never see me again. Barbary Coast didn't card me, nor does the Green Pig. @PIZZLE89 and I were at City Club in Ogden a few weeks ago, they didn't card me. Just before that, I was at Two Bit Street Cafe, they didn't card me for the Bloody Mary. The examples go on and on.
Why reinforce the idea that vaping is dangerous and scandalous by saying we agree that ID scanners at vape stores are needed... you know it's bad when you have to show ID to buy a length of wick silica and a little wire.
Exactly on the last bit about wire and silica. Here's the thing. With the way they defined ecigs, ecig substance, and ecig product, including the words "accessories" it technically includes the following, all of which are accessories for my REO: wire, cotton ball, plastic bottle, tubing, battery and replacement spring. What, is Wallgreens now going to be licensed, regulated, and require ID to sell cotton balls?
The current regs read similar enough that even now, it is technically illegal to purchase kanthal PR nichrome off the net.
The only saving grace is its totally unenforceable. If that's the case, why are they spending all this effort?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
