Vape shop sued for over a Million dollars because of exploding battery

[stevegmu]

Most things which are potentially dangerous carry warning labels, but they are generally regulated and require a warning label, or the seller of the item is smart enough to place one on the item...

 

[Racehorse]

Do you know how many people burn their houses down with 9v batteries? A fair number. They take a "dead" 9v and throw it into a drawer. The draw could be a cutlery or junk drawer full of items that can short the battery. Then they do to bed or work and pretty soon the drawer is on fire and it goes from there.

Battery safety is not limited to e-cigs, you can point to numerous consumer devices and battery designs that are simply an accident waiting to happen when the uniformed do something with that device or battery. It only seems to make headlines when its a vaper.

Let's make it simpler........in your line of work, how many people have you "showed" how to use a fire extinguisher? (who werent' stupid).
Probably a lot. My 86 year old mom has a lot of talents, but using tools of any sort is reallly not her wheel house.

Let's do another one. How many people do you think know about super heated water in the microwave? That will blow up the moment they put a spoon or sugar into it.? How many newlyewed couples for instance, who don't know much about the kitchen, would know that water can be heated beyond it's boiling point but still look "undisturbed" i.e. no bubbles, etc. Because superheating is an exception to the simple rules we learned......

I KNOW the kinds of community service that my firefighters, first reponders, and the like perform every day of every year. That is because they take their expertise and they actually TELL people stuff.

Who is doing that in the vaping world? Joe Schmo who was working at dairy queen and decided to open an ecig shop? Who tells customers it's okay to charge over night on your bed stand? (plenty of those, believe me).

What about the eliquid vendor who put titanium oxide in my ejuice? I'm still sick over that. Who would even do that if they weren't *stupid*????

 

[SissySpike]

So, you're saying that most consumers, wanting to use an ecig, who are sold a high energy lithium battery, at a B&M, know that they are dangerous ....... in the same way that they know a knife is sharp and will cut them?

I learned about knives when I was about 3 years old. Unfortunately, I did not have much knowledge about lithium batteries until I started vaping.

I did make it my business to learn about them, mostly because I didn't want to blow part of my face off.

However, with the advent of ecigs becoming so popular, such a hot selling item, would you say that the man in the street, who orders a mod online with a battery that comes with it,, with no user manual, etc. is going to automatically know this?

In negligence lawsuits, "COMMON KNOWLEDGE MAY FURNISH STANDARD OF CARE". In the case of the woman who was burned with the McDonalds coffee, it is most people's common knowledge that coffee is hot.

However, if you read that case in detail, the coffee wasn't just hot (i.e. what I make in my mr coffee machine). It was hot beyond hot. You know, the kind of hot that even after you put in cream and sugar it's still ......scalding. In other words, you probably could not put to your lips. You would have to drop a few ice cubes in, etc.

I've had that kind of coffee before from a store.....and was unable to drink it, even after 15-20 minutes.

So "most people" would not assume coffee would be THAT hot.

The question becomes: is the idea that lithium batteries, in an ecig that you hold to your lips, are dangerous and require proper education and handling instructions------or is this just common knowledge that most people would already know?

IMHO, I believe that a better standard of care would be a B&M employee at least asking the person buying if they know how to properly carry a loose, single lithium battery. Because there will be PLENTY of people just over the age of 18 who will pick one up to go to a party or something, to "vape" and they really don't know these things.

I really don't think it's about stupidity as much as lack of exposure to the principals --- battery university is quite a long document......I read it!

Good points Like most things it takes 10 mistakes to have an accident. I think you are correct it only takes a few seconds to ask some one if they know how to properly use a battery and not very long to educate them.
I guess for me the lack of know how is kind of a result in the fact we've started to think everything is 100% safe and idiot proof. Because everything is made lawsuit proof.
We are cheating our selves out of knowledge, self reliance and adding expense to products because they have to be idiot proof. So in my mind both consumers and retailers could do a little better and alot of these problems would go away.

 

[Racehorse]

I think you are correct it only takes a few seconds to ask some one if they know how to properly use a battery and not very long to educate them

Some of us are asking for "very simple things". In 2012 I wanted disclosure if my ejuice had diketones. As a paying consumer, I didn't feel I should have to dish out $200 for lab testing to use a $10 bottle of eliquid.

Professional businesses are supposed to have some knowledge about their product to pass on to the customer.

Vapers have a lot of demands. Meeting those demands requires more than writing emails from a chair . There's a lot of diplomacy and education that is required, and professionalism w/in the industry to establish credibility......as well as knowing what concessions to make (because there always are concessions). Right now it seems like everyone wants to buy a lot of stuff ---- and everyone else wants to sell it to them. Very little thought about prudent "managed" growth and sparse cohesion in the industry itself, barely a trade or professional org. or network.

Then, when the rules get made by somebody else, everyone will scream bloody murder. And the rules are alway made based on the mistakes made, not the other way around, because that is how reality works. Develop a reputation for sloppiness and the cleaning crews will be sent in.

Since you work in oil/gas I know you realize that calling somebody "stupid", and making excuses, aren't going to keep a refinery from blowing up. That all has to be taken care of before something stupid actually HAPPENS And like you said, there are 10 mistakes that have to happen to make those dominoes start moving.

Hopefully people will spend their time to start looking for the "holes" --- now, not later----- instead of name-calling and finger-pointing. Because there are some, and they aren't being plugged, and being in denial about them isn't going to keep the water behind the dam.

We are cheating our selves out of knowledge, <snip> self reliance

I'm going to present this as a cautonary tale. Self reliance? I am what they call out here a homesteader. Purchased raw land, had to bring services, build a road, bring water under the road to my property, build a cabin, and learn stuff like installing a toilet & water heater. I am not talking hiring a contractor, I mean clearing trees with friends and learning how to do carpentry and build stem walls.

The "LIBERTARIANS" i meet on the internets would have run away screaming after the first year (crippling ice storm in 2000 with no electricty for 20+ days, F3 tornado, more crippling ice storms) They have no idea what it means when you say there are few services (haul your own trash, pave, grade and rock your own road, get friends with tractors to drag fallen trees on chains so you can burn them. We built the box with 200 amp service for the pole in my friend's shop (saved me $300) and ran the underground cable from pole to house, as well as 100s of feet of water lines.

Nervous breakdown days, like 2 weeks back-breaking clearing a path of trees for cement truck and bldg. materials delivery to come up, and when I arrived to the property the electric company had decided to perform an "unscheduled" right of way cut thru my forest early that morning........leaving 50+ downed trees over the very road we had spent 2 weeks clearing. I had about 3-4 years of those kinda days.

I don't think I could do this a *second time*. I'm female and getting old. But people say they want freedom but have no real game plan to attain it when they can just go to the bank and mortgage their .... down for the rest of their lives. And that ain't freedom. And it isn't self reliance either.

There is a huge gulf between what people say they want, and what they actually want. Many consider it a PITA to get up out of their recliner in front of the TV to take the trash out--- which is 12 steps down their PAVED driveway. And somebody else comes and picks that up for them, too.

A society riding on a comfortable pillow of affluence isn't in the kind of shape it requires to be self-reliant.

 

[SissySpike]

Well said. IM with you Id reather do for my self than depend on others to do for me.
My family a get together is putting a roof ,room addition ext,,, on a house then some good BBQ.

here is my DNA 40 DIY mod I never soldered a electronics board before this. It works great my theory on most things is someone put it together so I can to.

Its not perfect but I have a very durable and nice mod for work.

But anyway when we let the gooberment and regulation boards think for us we get less preforming stuff for more money.

 

[edyle]

Just came across this picture on gearbest;

A nine volt battery; I don't know what the chemistry of this particular battery is, but that "Not for Retail Sale" is something I've never seen;
the red band around the thing is interesting.
The "Pb" I suspect means it contains lead.
And the clear warning "MAY EXPLODE OR LEAK IF RECHARGED OR DISPOSED OF IN FIRE DISSE........ "

 

[Firecrow]

A nine volt battery; I don't know what the chemistry of this particular battery is, but that "Not for Retail Sale" is something I've never seen

OEM unit for inclusion in consumer electronics.

 

[Firecrow]

Some of us are asking for "very simple things". In 2012 I wanted disclosure if my ejuice had diketones. As a paying consumer, I didn't feel I should have to dish out $200 for lab testing to use a $10 bottle of eliquid.

ECTA members are now doing this and I only order juice I can get certified testing for. This is an example of responsible business ownership and production.

Flavour Crafters Premium Eliquids

We should be rewarding companies like these with our business.

 

[caramel]

Let's make it simpler........in your line of work, how many people have you "showed" how to use a fire extinguisher? (who werent' stupid).

Funny you mentioned that.

http://www.safetyphoto.co.uk/photo1/downloads/Fire%20extinguisher%20explosion%20May%202010.pdf

Whom should be sued?

 

[Firecrow]

Who is doing that in the vaping world? Joe Schmo who was working at dairy queen and decided to open an ecig shop? Who tells customers it's okay to charge over night on your bed stand? (plenty of those, believe me).

Well, communication has a MESSAGE and a SENDER and RECEIVER.

So its a transaction. In FireEx training, my audience is compelled by OSHA and Workplace Safety. I'm also a lifetime instructor so I have ways that make the message as a sender compelling.

Receiving a message is entirely optional, and I think thats where there is a lot of breakdown. Some people are terrible receivers. You can usually spot them in the first 3 minutes of an interaction.

So while the message may be important and the sender may be good, it can all fall apart at the receiver.

SIDENOTE

I've been very impressed with the local vape shops here in Ontario. Most of the owners are passionate and knowledgeable and they hire staff with similar qualities. I've always had EXCELLENT interaction and have learned a lot from them on my visits. They know their message, and they are excellent senders and receivers. Moreso than most retail places I visit. If places like Walmart or Canadian Tire had to staff people as knowledgeable about their products as the local vape stores, they'd be hiring Ph.D.'s.

I think in most cases the people who run into battery trouble don't well with messages and receiving and aren't the types that log into a forum like this for more information. The perils and pitfalls of LION batteries are well documented and notorious. You can spend hours on YouTube watching people blow them up and make them catch fire - numerous consumer examples abound as shown just in this thread.

Can we do better at educating? Yes, but that requires consumer education at the point of sale which isn't always there, particularly with the Buy-Now button and the point and shoot consumer technology we live with appeals to the lowest common denominator, and there is no compulsion on the consumer to receive other than curiousity. I think we're coming up against human nature in these cases so I am not inclined to blame retailers or the industry, I think they do a really good job considering most everything they communicate is at their cost and is optional.

 

[juicynoos]

Thank you Crow, you make some good points based on your experience in your field of expertise and I fully agree with you that ultimately we are dealing with a 'type' of person, call it human nature but it seems there will always be carelessness, disinterest and a general lack of self education due to a certain 'mind set' with some people. I also, think that vast majority of vape shops and other distribution points for these types of battery's do there best for the most part but there are always exceptions of course. That said, from time to time, we are going to run into these kinds of accidents-unfortunately:

 

[crxess]

Here is a little something.
Many, in fact most battery manufacturers have Battery safety warnings and usage documentation.
Many shops ARE already including warnings and as shown, even online venders are including warnings.

We have well informed ECF members that .................... guess what................
Have still pocketed a Battery they KNEW could be dangerous. We have even had the occasional - Oops I did a dumb thing... Post - on the matter.

Exactly what type of warning is going to stop someone from doing something that might end badly?
How many people actually pay attention to warnings as still do not relate the seriousness to themselves?
How many people ignore warnings and safety instructions every single day?

Now, Not one of us knows What Battery was sold to Powell or what Warnings may have come with the Battery. No battery I have researched warns NOT to pocket and thousands are designed for use in a much broader market than Vaping.

Warnings are for the protection of the Manufacturer and the seller period. They are basically the Laws way of preventing the ignorant from retaliating for being stupid in the first place.
___________________________________________________________________________

I am still calling BS in this Incident and the outcry it has caused.
I have spent most of my life in the 12v industry, Over 20 years in RC including Electric Flight and serviced my own DC powered equipment for many many years.

TO THIS DATE - I have Never Ever Seen an Idle(uninstalled) Battery of Any Composition suddenly Explode or Rapid discharge.

WARNING - Air is Polluted - Breathing is Hazardous to Your Health

You have been warned!

 

[AndriaD]

I would say that 90%-95% of the world's population considers learning ANYTHING to be a very obnoxious form of WORK, to be avoided whenever possible. They won't read (god forbid!), they won't listen, they assume that they already know everything they will ever need to know, and anyone who tries to encourage them to learn something new will receive the full brunt of the ignoramus's wrath. Being such a prevalent condition, I guess this anti-learning attitude must be considered to be "human nature." To me it just seems like laziness and inflated ego.

Andria

 

[Racehorse]

ECTA members are now doing this and I only order juice I can get certified testing for. This is an example of responsible business ownership and production.

ECTA in Canada s a great org. Some of the members like Electro Vapor, Flavour Crafters, and VapeMate have been members since 2011.

I have a question. Do all the members of ECTA have test results available..........or is it like AESMA ---cuz many of the vendors listed at AESMA do not have test results and do not supply them.


Also, do you believe it the seller should submit the juice samples and pay for the testing, or should the consumer/end-user be responsible for doing that?

 

[skoony]

Here we go again. Please research the McD's coffee case before rushing to judgement. As with our chosen pastime, sensationalistic journalism made so much out of that case that the comedians then got hold of it and made it even worse.

That woman was not driving. She was sitting in the passenger seat with the car in park. She tried to remove the lid of the coffee cup (Which were later redesigned due to the difficulty of removing) to add cream and sugar to her coffee. At that time McD's was serving their coffee at 170 degrees Fahrenheit, a temperature that causes third degree burns to skin in 3 seconds, not to mention would scald the mouth of anyone trying to drink it. McD's had already settled over 700 other cases of burns caused by their coffee, but had still not bothered to turn down the heat on their pots even though the head of their own quality control had warned them about it. The woman in question was prepared to settle out of court for the cost of her hospital bills, which included needed skin grafts, but McD's only offered her $800.00 iirc. Imho, she was more than correct in suing the pants off the company.

If every Tom, .... and Harry wanting to switch to e-cigarettes believed what the reporters write about vaping like they believe what was reported about that particular case, no one would be vaping.

so the facts are Mcd's served that coffee that hot because that was
the temperature that gave it the best flavor. the fact there were prior
complaints just means there were 700 other idiots that apparently
do not understand the concept of hot and by implication cold.
since man starting using fire the very first survival technique
a child learns is what is hot and what is not. the courts in there
divine wisdom simply chose to erase 50,000 years of human
evolution. did she complain on prior visits about the hot coffee?
back then as now they would gladly pop a few ice cubes in the
cup to cool the coffee down. it was common knowledge that
Mcd's coffee was hot. it is also not unreasonable to assume
that the concept of hot and cold is a universally understood concept.
with a priori knowledge of the concept of hot and cold the user of
hot and or cold products assumes the liability of proper handling
and care associated with said products. that is why the ruling
is wrong. one step closer to a society that has no concept of nor
desire to have personal responsibility.

mike

 

[Paradicio]

so the facts are Mcd's served that coffee that hot because that was
the temperature that gave it the best flavor. the fact there were prior
complaints just means there were 700 other idiots that apparently
do not understand the concept of hot and by implication cold.
since man starting using fire the very first survival technique
a child learns is what is hot and what is not. the courts in there
divine wisdom simply chose to erase 50,000 years of human
evolution. did she complain on prior visits about the hot coffee?
back then as now they would gladly pop a few ice cubes in the
cup to cool the coffee down. it was common knowledge that
Mcd's coffee was hot. it is also not unreasonable to assume
that the concept of hot and cold is a universally understood concept.
with a priori knowledge of the concept of hot and cold the user of
hot and or cold products assumes the liability of proper handling
and care associated with said products. that is why the ruling
is wrong. one step closer to a society that has no concept of nor
desire to have personal responsibility.

mike

Well, no. The fact is McDonalds was serving coffee that was hot to the point of being hazardous to their consumers. They knew what they were doing and chose not to do anything about it, until they were sued.

Personal responsibility is one thing, negligence on the part of a manufacturer, or retailer, is something different.

 

[DC2]

When I order McDonald's coffee I always order it with a little bit of ice.
That way I don't have to wait 20 minutes to start drinking it.

 

[caramel]

I had McD coffee only twice in my life. First time it was the learning experience. Second time it was an emergency. Always got the coca cola after that.

 

[classwife]

Just came across this picture on gearbest;

A nine volt battery; I don't know what the chemistry of this particular battery is, but that "Not for Retail Sale" is something I've never seen;
the red band around the thing is interesting.
The "Pb" I suspect means it contains lead.
And the clear warning "MAY EXPLODE OR LEAK IF RECHARGED OR DISPOSED OF IN FIRE DISSE........ "

The tear strip to open the package perhaps ?

 

[Racehorse]

I read the whole case and saw the pics for that McD's case. The coffee wasn't just hot, it was almost super-heated, and not anything like the temp of our coffee makers at home.....the employees at that location also noted that there were a lot of complaints and that the equipment wasn't operating properly and they had told management and the coffee maker was never fixed, etc. People who haven't done the research into this case, in depth, will not understand this.

As a previous poster mentioned, reading is excrutiating to some people and they won't do it, they just read a headline and make assumptions.

I do find it interesting that the VERY THING that vapers complain about, i.e. headlines about ecigs blowing up, without proper details, gives vaping a bad rap..........but the same people have NO PROBLEM jumping to the same conclusions about the McDonald's Coffee Incident.