Vaping & Making Money..... Hmmm - Ideas & Thoughts Welcome

[Pur3Rush]

Hopefully the title intrigued you. Insomnia won't let me sleep, so I'll entertain you with some interesting ideas and observations.

Let's examine who's making money from vaping innovation & how to possibly make money if you want to contribute to it's innovation.

I've been vaping since 2010. Yes, the old blue foam days. 2013 has seen vaping advance in technology light years. Our discussion is centered around hardware and technology only. Not Juice! Technology wise, we've hit or are very close to the pinnacle of all of the practical adjustments and developments that could possibly be made tech wise. Yes there will be more improvements, but in my opinion none so profound as we've seen this past year. Unless you consider quantum vaping a possiblity. lol

Anyway, all of this got me to thinking, who's making money??

To understand that, let's examine the current structure. It goes pretty much something like this:

1. Developers & designers in USA, UK, and Germany develop some new technology, either chipset, or entire new way of using the atomizer, re: RDA, RTA, Clearomizer tech.

2. Immediately after release, said item is cloned in china or phillipines.

3. Bulk items are shipped to the respective countries where vaping has taken off.

4. Online retailers, B&M stores sell said items.

5. Youtube vaping reps review said products and give their feedback and recommendations.

6. China & Phillipines update product, and repeat step 2-6.

Okay, now mind you I have no qualms with the process. That discussion is like politics. It's flawed, but it's reliably flawed.
My real question is really, if I was a true vaping innovator, and releasing these $100-$300 atomizers, only to see them cloned for $50 or less, why in the world would I keep trying to release these innovations. I can understand a true love for vaping, or precise craftmanship or whatever reason, but no real money is being made.

It's at this time, that I must mention that while the tech and hardware has developed exponentially, at the same time the precise manufacturing of china and the phillipines has drastically improved light years ahead of the crap that was being release in 2012.

Back on point. I'm trying to understand as a business how is this a viable practice. Why release a top notch revolutionary product, only to see it cloned almost exactly. Or literally exactly, with some cosmetic differences or something small.

I would think, If I had a true development that some sort or viable partnership would be the next step. Or better yet, why not create a corporation of vaping designers, pool your resources and ideas, and then sell the designs to china and the phillipines for manufacturing. You wouldn't have to move locations or all that, the tech for cooperative development already exists. I'm just saying it seems like other than the love of vaping, releasing these fantastically designed atomizers, at exorbitatnt prices, only to be sold to people who truly love "Your Authentic product" is a recipe for shooting yourself in the foot.

It's like Nike releasing some Air Jordans, only to have Payless release XJ900 that are almost the same. And the kick in the face is that payless is always sold out!! WTH

The two co.'s I can think of that got this right out the box is:

Aspire - They're the can't loose team. Everything we make is gold,
DNA - 20 etc. etc. chipset. Nobody is cloning their chipsets. That I know of.
Innokin - Kind of..

Now I'm no business genius, nor a vaping superstar of any kind. I regularly use my mvp 2.0 and aspire bdc, awaiting the nautilus. I do rebuild, and plan to get an Aqua clone soon, but I don't need tons of mechs, and like pbusardo I'm not trying to vape sub ohm cumulous clouds or whatever. Just not for me.


So I'd be interested to hear:

1. If you had to make money from vaping tech & ideas how would you do it?
2. Based on what's currently out there, where do you see the future of vaping heading? Inclusive or exclusive of these stupid legislation proposed or passed. ( Like prohibition of alcohol, ........., or drugs of any sort ever worked) Not saying vaping is a drug. Although if you find yourself hiding new vape mail so your significant other doesn't find out. well...

3. Any thoughts or insights you may have..

Well time to sleep. Look forward to an engaging discussion. Keep Calm, Vape On!!

 

[Pur3Rush]

Last thought: I know there are "fringe" products. Please don't be offended. But I'm referring to products that "most vapers would use". By fringe, you could substitute "niche" product. REO mods, or other highly specialized tech, that china wouldn't/couldn't -cost prohibitive, to make/clone/innovate.

Thx in avance.

 

[Talyon]

Hypothetically, I would move to the US, and manufacture a mod that's better then a Provari. Did I hear something hmmm.
I'd call it a Volari, or is that a Car? Was that a movement I seen out corner of my eye?
It would be made in any color u wanted. Sure I heard something.
It would be VV/VW and pass through and capable of opening beer bottles, wait is there someone over there?

Hello anyone there? Hmmm perhaps just my imagination.

It would be telescopic and come with a variety of carry cases. Was that a window breaking or chains rattling?
I would give it a 3 year warranty and sell it for 10 bucks less. Just a sec I'm sure I heard someth...........

Ack arg eek, no pleae don't stop it your hurting me nooooooooo.... Dang Provari user so sensitive, lol.

Vape this!

Sorry OP I had no Ideas but just the above thought.

No Provari's were cloned or harmed during this story.

 

[dalelovelace]

Back on point. I'm trying to understand as a business how is this a viable practice. Why release a top notch revolutionary product, only to see it cloned almost exactly. Or literally exactly, with some cosmetic differences or something small.

Can you find an authentic Chi-You, Nemesis, King, Astro, or any top notch revolutionary project that is being cloned in China, in stock somewhere right now? Every authentic batch of mods that are being cloned sell out instantly. That's why you would continue creating something you know will be cloned, because even when the China clone sells at a fraction of the price, your high priced product would continue to sell as fast as you can make it.

 

[Harlen]

If I make it and it cost me two bucks to make do I sale it at 500.00 so I can make a killing in a short time or do I price it at 4.00 and make my innovation to low a profit to steal ? Making money in any market is all in how you do it .

 

[Pur3Rush]

If I make it and it cost me two bucks to make do I sale it at 500.00 so I can make a killing in a short time or do I price it at 4.00 and make my innovation to low a profit to steal ? Making money in any market is all in how you do it .

Hmm. Interesting. I like the thinking on that. Hadn't considered it.

 

[Wickeddeuce]

The other huge thing is most of the clones to my knowledge perform anywhere from 80 to 40 % as well as the original, they still perform amazingly well but not as good. Fairly sure that the durability and quality is different too. IIRC the kraken has a quartz tank think i read that somewhere, the kraken clone is probably pyrex... just an example

 

[Recycled Roadkill]

Since I'm an electronic genius, (I'm not) I'd be selling a programmed chip that utilizes all the features that folks seem to like of the best brands on one chip.

Why my VTR doesn't have a function to tell the condition of the battery I really don't understand. 5 miles away from the house and the idiot light has turned yellow. Yet my SVD has that feature.

Oh Yeah!!!! I'm gonna be rich!

 

[BillyWJ]

The other huge thing is most of the clones to my knowledge perform anywhere from 80 to 40 % as well as the original, they still perform amazingly well but not as good. Fairly sure that the durability and quality is different too. IIRC the kraken has a quartz tank think i read that somewhere, the kraken clone is probably pyrex... just an example

Atomizers are not hard to machine, there's no wiring and circuitry, you just have to make sure the threads are right, and it all fits together. They're pretty easy to clone, therefore, with a minimum amount of investment, all you need is lathes, drills, machinists, and access to o-rings and bulk material. In China, that's cheap and easy. As long as you have a couple to take apart and measure, you're good to go.

Now, cloning a Provari, sure you can clone the case fairly quickly, but cloning the chips? That's another matter, and not quite as simple, and if ProVape keeps a close lid on it's chip inventory, you won't see clones. You will, eventually, because the Kick is being cloned, but the clone Provaris will be as pricey as the real deal, because of the circuitry in them. That's why there's a lot of ZMAX clones, because they're just buying the ZMAX head, and designing cases around them.

Another way to avoid clones is to not have them made in China, or overseas. I know someone who made an iPhone accessory, and it was cloned in China at the shop he was having his made at, before he even had his stock in hand. Copyright is a vastly different issue there, and cloning products is not illegal - getting them over the border here can be. It's just the way business is done there - it's nothing personal, or anti-American, they just don't recognize US patent or copyright there, and when it comes to business, they have a completely different mindset.

 

[BillyWJ]

Since I'm an electronic genius, (I'm not) I'd be selling a programmed chip that utilizes all the features that folks seem to like of the best brands on one chip.

Why my VTR doesn't have a function to tell the condition of the battery I really don't understand. 5 miles away from the house and the idiot light has turned yellow. Yet my SVD has that feature.

Oh Yeah!!!! I'm gonna be rich!

Chip design and fab is pretty pricey, you'd have to sell a lot of them to get your startup costs back, that's why the DNA 20 is $50.

 

[BillyWJ]

1. If you had to make money from vaping tech & ideas how would you do it?

I'd start a brick and mortar, with a coffee lounge (more income), and encourage the community to gather, share, and have tech demos hosted - and sell as wide a variety of liquids and mods and accessories as I could. If I had a chemistry background, i would start a gourmet liquid shop, and chase flavor. I don't see gear as being something to profit on in a significant way, unless you innovate and come up with new designs and improve gaping. If I were in my 20s, I'd use ecigs as a sideline while in school and in a career, and start learning the mastics of machining and simple circuit design, and study the science behind vapor production - or pursue the chemistry of flavor. (That exists, Big Food hires people like that, I worked for a company that made food products that had a lab with several chemists to design their flavors)

2. Based on what's currently out there, where do you see the future of vaping heading? Inclusive or exclusive of these stupid legislation proposed or passed. ( Like prohibition of alcohol, ........., or drugs of any sort ever worked) Not saying vaping is a drug. Although if you find yourself hiding new vape mail so your significant other doesn't find out. well...

It's unclear. I really don't know, just in the last two weeks, it's like a concerted effort on all fronts has started to eliminate vaping, and it's worrisome.

3. Any thoughts or insights you may have..

I think it's the Wild West as far as ecig tech goes, so if you're motivated, and the legal issues gotten past, it could be a lucrative and interesting thing to get into. I've had some ideas, but what with CA threatening to ban online sales, and the concerted effort to get rid of vaping, I'm kind of scared to invest any time or money, yet. I feel bad for a lot of ecig business, the powers that be can wipe them out soon, with the stroke of a pen, and it's enraging and sad to watch it happen, propped up by a press that just parrots whatever the money guys want. I knew our system was dysfunctional and broken, but I didn't quite realize or was willing to accept that it's this bad. I just want to avoid smoking cigarettes, and I'm being made to feel like a 3rd class citizen again by people who only want tax money from me.

 

[fretplayer20]

It all will boil down to regulation. There will be clones for the foreseeable future. Once the regulations go through and the dust settles, there will be more American manufacturers popping up. I'd be surprised if the Chinese could keep up with the quality and reputation of the US products. I realize everything we use is from China, but the demand for Vape Gear is growing here. There will be so many entrepreneurial start ups in the future that product will be vastly available and there will be local competition to keep prices down and quality up. Besides, who's going to buy knock off Vape Gear when the industry is out of its infancy?

Someone else mentioned Air Jordans. I personally don't know anyone in the US who would buy cloned Jordans ... on purpose anyway. Status plays a big part as well. People will compete with one another with their vape gear. I just see the day coming when someone points and says "Why do you have that bobo Chinese atty?".

I don't know, I think everything will change gradually, but also substantially over the next couple of years. Buying vape gear will be more accessible in the states and will be cheaper to ship and get to you faster. China can produce the numbers, but I highly doubt the small productions they have for these devices could establish the same quality with that production rate.

 

[Xcighippy]

I would open a chain of vape superstores. The walmart of the vape world. Carry everything from the best devices, their clones down to the humblest of autos and everything in between from diy e liquid to cotton balls.(regular and boiled of course).

 

[Recycled Roadkill]

Chip design and fab is pretty pricey, you'd have to sell a lot of them to get your startup costs back, that's why the DNA 20 is $50.

Okie dokey, you talked me out of it !!!

 

[fretplayer20]

I feel bad for a lot of ecig business, the powers that be can wipe them out soon, with the stroke of a pen, and it's enraging and sad to watch it happen, propped up by a press that just parrots whatever the money guys want. I knew our system was dysfunctional and broken, but I didn't quite realize or was willing to accept that it's this bad. I just want to avoid smoking cigarettes, and I'm being made to feel like a 3rd class citizen again by people who only want tax money from me.

Moving stuff.

 

[BlaseWithVicarious]

Hopefully the title intrigued you. Insomnia won't let me sleep, so I'll entertain you with some interesting ideas and observations.

Let's examine who's making money from vaping innovation & how to possibly make money if you want to contribute to it's innovation.

I've been vaping since 2010. Yes, the old blue foam days. 2013 has seen vaping advance in technology light years. Our discussion is centered around hardware and technology only. Not Juice! Technology wise, we've hit or are very close to the pinnacle of all of the practical adjustments and developments that could possibly be made tech wise. Yes there will be more improvements, but in my opinion none so profound as we've seen this past year. Unless you consider quantum vaping a possiblity. lol

Anyway, all of this got me to thinking, who's making money??

To understand that, let's examine the current structure. It goes pretty much something like this:

1. Developers & designers in USA, UK, and Germany develop some new technology, either chipset, or entire new way of using the atomizer, re: RDA, RTA, Clearomizer tech.

2. Immediately after release, said item is cloned in china or phillipines.

3. Bulk items are shipped to the respective countries where vaping has taken off.

4. Online retailers, B&M stores sell said items.

5. Youtube vaping reps review said products and give their feedback and recommendations.

6. China & Phillipines update product, and repeat step 2-6.

Okay, now mind you I have no qualms with the process. That discussion is like politics. It's flawed, but it's reliably flawed.
My real question is really, if I was a true vaping innovator, and releasing these $100-$300 atomizers, only to see them cloned for $50 or less, why in the world would I keep trying to release these innovations. I can understand a true love for vaping, or precise craftmanship or whatever reason, but no real money is being made.

It's at this time, that I must mention that while the tech and hardware has developed exponentially, at the same time the precise manufacturing of china and the phillipines has drastically improved light years ahead of the crap that was being release in 2012.

Back on point. I'm trying to understand as a business how is this a viable practice. Why release a top notch revolutionary product, only to see it cloned almost exactly. Or literally exactly, with some cosmetic differences or something small.

I would think, If I had a true development that some sort or viable partnership would be the next step. Or better yet, why not create a corporation of vaping designers, pool your resources and ideas, and then sell the designs to china and the phillipines for manufacturing. You wouldn't have to move locations or all that, the tech for cooperative development already exists. I'm just saying it seems like other than the love of vaping, releasing these fantastically designed atomizers, at exorbitatnt prices, only to be sold to people who truly love "Your Authentic product" is a recipe for shooting yourself in the foot.

It's like Nike releasing some Air Jordans, only to have Payless release XJ900 that are almost the same. And the kick in the face is that payless is always sold out!! WTH

The two co.'s I can think of that got this right out the box is:

Aspire - They're the can't loose team. Everything we make is gold,
DNA - 20 etc. etc. chipset. Nobody is cloning their chipsets. That I know of.
Innokin - Kind of..

Now I'm no business genius, nor a vaping superstar of any kind. I regularly use my mvp 2.0 and aspire bdc, awaiting the nautilus. I do rebuild, and plan to get an Aqua clone soon, but I don't need tons of mechs, and like pbusardo I'm not trying to vape sub ohm cumulous clouds or whatever. Just not for me.


So I'd be interested to hear:

1. If you had to make money from vaping tech & ideas how would you do it?
2. Based on what's currently out there, where do you see the future of vaping heading? Inclusive or exclusive of these stupid legislation proposed or passed. ( Like prohibition of alcohol, ........., or drugs of any sort ever worked) Not saying vaping is a drug. Although if you find yourself hiding new vape mail so your significant other doesn't find out. well...

3. Any thoughts or insights you may have..

Well time to sleep. Look forward to an engaging discussion. Keep Calm, Vape On!!

Because people like to test products cloned at low price to see if they like it if yes they save and buy real deal. Think of cloning as test driving and if you want it they buy real. However some peoples budget or level on vaping may not want to spend couple hundred bucks on a mod or atty. so let them enjoy their slice of happiness while we bask in it. People make money one way or another sure the Chinese steal they've been doing it long before vaping. You know the quality differences and set backs. Let me drive my Mercedes before choosing some Toyota. Bad analogy but I like high end products that last.

TLDR you get what you pay for...


Sent from my Just GG using Tapatalk

 

[patkin]

I'm not sure what ideas you want.... clone vs real deal or just ways for an ecig business venture to succeed. If the later, then I would consider all the possible upcoming regulations primarily and if they don't come out for the worst, that's just a bonus.

1. I would only consider in-state sales (worst possible regulations) when assessing profit potential.
2. What can I offer that competitors may not?
A. Best possible products at lowest possible prices. (sell only via net in-state avoiding B&M overhead)
Possibly even my own brand of commonly used hardware backed by warranty.
B. Either straight-forward warranties on all products or replacement ethics that travel via word-of-mouth.
C. Above average customer service.

I have just found a local vendor who does all of the above except for the branding part but as regulations become more onerous, I think its a good idea to do the proprietary branding as indicative of quality and as an advertising tool.

 

[Rossum]

Chip design and fab is pretty pricey, you'd have to sell a lot of them to get your startup costs back, that's why the DNA 20 is $50.

I doubt there's a custom fabricated chip on the DNA-20 board. A micro-controller with custom firmware in it, sure. But having a chip custom fabbed is not cost-effective until you're talking about really big quantities.

 

[BillyWJ]

I doubt there's a custom fabricated chip on the DNA-20 board. A micro-controller with custom firmware in it, sure. But having a chip custom fabbed is not cost-effective until you're talking about really big quantities.

That was exactly my point. But how cost effective is custom coded firmware? If the DNA 20 is $50 for a circuit board and a display, how much of that is profit?

 

[Masonite]

in case of a ban....i'd develop a computer contolled nic-extractor/juice maker. kinda like the the paint mixers at home depot but the size of a coffee machine if possible. I'd invest in a world-wide patent and partner up or licence the design to a manufacturer in china...hopefully with some mob ties to deal with the local knock-off artists. People would probably still buy ciggies for the tobacco unless they grow the tobacco themselves... but at least we wouldn't be burning them. The governments will still get there tax money and leave us alone. I'm a genius! Look out soon for a flavored poison maker at a Walmart near you....next to the baby bottle warmers.