The Problem of Clones?

[samcm010]

To me it's a simple matter of supply and demand. If the demand is huge the market will always drift to those who choose to supply. I'm not sure what mention of illegality relates to. i there is no patentability or no effort to patent, or no registered trademark then I'm not sure what issues there are in law. Personally I think it's unethical to use an originators logo/device name and I would avoid a device that did that although think that's an ethical issue most times and not a legal one.

Moral choice is an entirely separate issue. Hitting on your buddy's girlfriend is not illegal but it's definitely something most of us don't want to do. Buying a clone might be a little like that but if there were no other girl available in the world with her qualities then it might be a little more understandable albeit potentially dangerous.

Very fair points but there are other girls available to hit on with very similar qualities. Outside of the Glas I have never not been able to get a device I wanted and I have never paid more than RRP. I am also sure if I really tried I could get a glas just do not really want one. And this is sincere if you want to reach out to me via PM I would be happy to be on the search for something you are having a hard time finding. And no I do not belong to any secret societies but I do belong to many Mod Trading and Classifieds that are open to the public all you have to do is request to join.

 

[dr g]

I understand this for smaller operations but even so, if every batch you come out with sells out within hours of listing, wouldn't you believe that it's time to take the leap and expand the business? I assume that some mod makers don't do this because they want their mod to be "mystic-like". I'd rather make more money but that's just my opinion.

It's not that simple. Adding capacity beyond what a single person, few partners, or perhaps a family operation can do directly is not a simple task. Hiring any employees is a huge difference from not having any. And outsourcing requires much larger capital expenditures and risk.

The bottom line is once an operation is established and has good demand, it's a sure thing. Expanding is not. So just as you say you'd rather "make more money," that's what the mod maker has decided, that it's a surer thing to handle his own production at a level he can manage than to extend and risk getting cloned and the market collapsing before the capital expenditures are recouped.

No maker restricts production for the reason you claim.

 

[Hawaiian Nate]

It's not that simple. Adding capacity beyond what a single person, few partners, or perhaps a family operation can do directly is not a simple task. Hiring any employees is a huge difference from not having any. And outsourcing requires much larger capital expenditures and risk.

The bottom line is once an operation is established and has good demand, it's a sure thing. Expanding is not. So just as you say you'd rather "make more money," that's what the mod maker has decided, that it's a surer thing to handle his own production at a level he can manage than to extend and risk getting cloned and the market collapsing before the capital expenditures are recouped.

No maker restricts production for the reason you claim.

I'm not so sure about that. Like I said, I'm only assuming, but a multi billion dollar per year industry would suggest expansion. I am not a high end mod maker nor do I know any, but I find it hard to believe in the day and age we live in that availability would be such a problem. I also find it hard to fathom that the "market" would collapse on high end mod makers before they could see any profits. This is not a clone vs authentic subject, it's an availability subject. I wish more high end mod makers would take the risk to expand production. I'm not asking them to lower their price, I'm asking them to meet supply and demand.

 

[sedition]

I'm heading out of town (and away from internet coverage) for a couple of days, just wanted to leave this here - should be relevant at about page five.

 

[stevegmu]

If it were so easy to just ramp up production, I think ProVape would have been able to make more than 1000 titanium 2.5s...

 

[Marc411]

Now were cookin

 

[Equilibrium]

Really, another one?!

 

[mwjones]

I don't make mods or atomizers or anything, but i have a wealth of experience making stainless, titanium and Inconel tubes and fittings for aircraft engines that are actually quite similar. I know, with 100% certainty, the longer you can leave a job set up on a machine, the more productive you will be.

Here's an example, looking at an average atomizer. You've got a deck/base, chimney, top cap, drip tip, tank, say maybe 5 parts depending on the design. Using a small cnc lathe with a decent array of tooling (mostly tiny borign bars for this application) you're looking at anywhere from an hour or 2 to maybe 4 hours on the outside to cut blanks, get a part set up and running, and then looking at running maybe 50 parts for the rest of the day. So you make the parts for 50 attys in a week, spend saturday deburring cleaning, assembling and packaging them all, and after a 50 hour work week, you've got 50 attys made.

Now, say you leave those parts set up for a whole week on the machine. You're looking at making about 450 parts in your 5 day work week. In 6 weeks, you'll do a 450 piece run of your atomizer, cleaned, deburred, packaged, the whole deal, right from bar stock to finished product. That's 75 units per week, and you didn't have to work saturday. The rub is that you had to work for 6 weeks with no cash flow, and I get how that can be hard. I've also seen machine shops run themselves into the ground by refusing to spend a little more cash upfront to be a little more productive in the long run.

 

[Absintheur]

There will always be those who want to own an original work of art and those who are happy with a mass produced shadow of the real thing. If you are happy with your choice then it is all good.

 

[Smann245]

What mwjones said. The TOBH 2.5 is out. Should've made more v2's so the price was cheaper. Then I might have found one still for sale for a decent price. I'm sure the machining and finish would have been much nicer than the china made piece I got. However, I do see the difficulty of a small business trying to keep up with a rapidly evolving industry and having to compete with Chinese slave labor. Also, investors are not gonna dump big money in ecig companies with rumors of laws and regulations flying all over the place. Seems like all business related roadblocks lead back to jerk off politicians huh? Remove uncertainty of the industries future and things will be different.

 

[bluecat]

It's not that simple. Adding capacity beyond what a single person, few partners, or perhaps a family operation can do directly is not a simple task. Hiring any employees is a huge difference from not having any. And outsourcing requires much larger capital expenditures and risk.

The bottom line is once an operation is established and has good demand, it's a sure thing. Expanding is not. So just as you say you'd rather "make more money," that's what the mod maker has decided, that it's a surer thing to handle his own production at a level he can manage than to extend and risk getting cloned and the market collapsing before the capital expenditures are recouped.

No maker restricts production for the reason you claim.

Let us put it this way. They are afraid to make the leap to mass production. They do not want to put out the outlay of cash that is needed to ramp up production. They are fine to sit and put out their limited quantities on the equipment they have. They have no incentive to produce at mass. If they produce at mass, they will eventually hit their no man lands mark where they will have too much supply and not enough demand. Then they will lose money. Unless they do what the turtle guys did and just put a new piece of art work on each version.

Risk getting cloned?

Artificial supply... Higher price.

I for one am very much looking forward to some real innovation for a few years now. Design and Production wise.

 

[roxynoodle]

Yes, no one has to buy a clone. There is nothing one has to have. Its not like I MUST have a Squape R. I could buy a kayfun instead, lol!

So it is a choice.

Yes, I have clones. Yes, I also think its wrong for the Chinese (or whoever) to copy an item exactly including wording and logos. I would actually prefer they were logoless or even say "made in China" on them. I do like the fact that I can try something cheaply first. I love my Rose clone so much I think I'm going to get myself an authentic now. However, ponying up for a $200 atty that I'm not sure I'll like would have been a big gamble for me.

 

[III BIRDMAN III]

Zen is the Master of the limited quantity.. LOL!!!!

Bottom line is if these mod makers created a new amazing device.
If they brought the item out with a very well known vendor for a fair price
they couldn't make enough product even on the first run.

90% of the vapors will never pay $400 for a damn tube mod
But....... it has less voltage drop and there is a dragon etched into the side......

Who Cares Rant Over!!!!!

 

[edyle]

To me it's a simple matter of supply and demand. If the demand is huge the market will always drift to those who choose to supply. I'm not sure what mention of illegality relates to. i there is no patentability or no effort to patent, or no registered trademark then I'm not sure what issues there are in law. Personally I think it's unethical to use an originators logo/device name and I would avoid a device that did that although I think that's purely an ethical issue most times and not a legal one.

Moral choice is an entirely separate issue. Hitting on your buddy's girlfriend is not illegal but it's definitely something most of us don't want to do. Buying a clone might be a little like that but if there were no other girl available in the world with her qualities then it might be a little more understandable albeit potentially dangerous.

Is it 'unethical' to pretend a car is yours and sell it to somebody, then skip town with the money?

Of course it's unethical, but it's more than just unethical, it is fraud.

Hitting on your buddy's girlfriend is different from fraudulently sending her text messages from his phone to break them up so you could move in.