Vaping vs Smoking

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dcdozer

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Couldn't possibly be the smoke, right? Has to be the nicotine.

I don't mean to sound flippant, ok maybe a little, but you sound a bit like Kristy who dual used vaping and smoking for 6 months before returning to smoking full time, and then blamed her subsequent lung collapse on vaping.
Exchaner is playing us on this forum. There are claims of being one of us as a smoker and vaper, there are statements of reasonably questioning the safety of vaping, there are accusations of Vaping Company employees "posing" here as "ECF members". There are attacks on members' responses poor use of grammar (when it is suitable to do so), and there are responses that make you think that maybe, just maybe, this is a thoughtful, intelligent person who is questioning the safety of vaping.

Yet there is no response to the many links to the responsible, detailed, and more importantly, unbiased reports from Dr. Siegel or Dr. Konstantinos.

To Exchaner: apologies if I'm wrong, and if you're just searching for truth, keep doing that. I just don't believe this is the case after reading this thread.
 
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Exchaner

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Couldn't possibly be the smoke, right? Has to be the nicotine.

Smoke is partly nicotine plus other agents. I am not going to rule out anything - not nic and not the other agents. I do recall however one scientific paper stating that nic is the most pharmaceutically active ingredient in smoke. I will post a link if I manage to find the article.

It's also relevant that nicotine is a proven constricting agent. It restricts blood flow to the cells - the gums for example.
 
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Exchaner

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Exchaner is playing us on this forum.
To Exchaner: apologies if I'm wrong, and if you're just searching for truth, keep doing that. I just don't believe this is the case after reading this thread.

Sorry you feel that way but I have not had a chance to read all the links you mentioned. Perhaps I should, but in the meantime this is the essence of what I am saying: None of us know for sure what are the long term effects of vaping. And yet many on this forum have already made up their mind. Where is the long term study that proves their point? It just doesn't exist yet. In the meantime, I for one will take the prudent course of caution while keeping an open mind - more than what I can say about others in the forum.

As to the comment about grammar, you might have a point, but that was my response to someone who had inappropriately attacked me. Like the moderator said, attack the post - not the poster.
 
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dcdozer

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Sorry you feel that way but I have not had a chance to read all the links you mentioned. Perhaps I should, but in the meantime this is the essence of what I am saying: None of us know for sure what are the long term effects of vaping. And yet many on this forum have already made up their mind. Where is the long term study that proves their point? It just doesn't exist yet. In the meantime, I for one will take the prudent course of caution while keeping an open mind - more than what I can say about others in the forum.

As to the comment about grammar, you might have a point, but that was my response to someone who had inappropriately attacked me. Like the moderator said, attack the post - not the poster.
Thank you for conceding that I "might have a point". That's very generous of you.

You mentioned that you will take the "prudent course of action while keeping an open mind"...what does that mean? Dual use as a smoker and vaper? Vaping only? Or abstinence from "tobacco products" entirely?
 

Exchaner

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Thank you for conceding that I "might have a point". That's very generous of you.

You mentioned that you will take the "prudent course of action while keeping an open mind"...what does that mean? Dual use as a smoker and vaper? Vaping only? Or abstinence from "tobacco products" entirely?

Unfortunately dual use - not so prudent, but I am doing my best to smoke less, and cut down my mg's. Down to 5 mg from 12.
 

dcdozer

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Unfortunately dual use - not so prudent, but I am doing my best to smoke less, and cut down my mg's. Down to 5 mg from 12.
Good luck with that - I wish you well. I also recommend that you read some of the literature from Drs. Siegel and Konstantinos. Many links have been posted before. I'm happy to point you to good ones if you don't want to drive back through the history of this thread.
 
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LaraC

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Jman8

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Sorry you feel that way but I have not had a chance to read all the links you mentioned. Perhaps I should, but in the meantime this is the essence of what I am saying: None of us know for sure what are the long term effects of vaping. And yet many on this forum have already made up their mind.

Which posts, in your estimation, are representative of a mind being made up?

Where is the long term study that proves their point? It just doesn't exist yet. In the meantime, I for one will take the prudent course of caution while keeping an open mind - more than what I can say about others in the forum.

What is this prudent course of which you speak? Please spell that out.
 

Exchaner

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Which posts, in your estimation, are representative of a mind being made up?



What is this prudent course of which you speak? Please spell that out.

The only thing I can do besides quitting, is to reduce my consumption along with the number of flavorings. I mostly vape unflavored. Nothing else I can do except be skeptical of what I read - good or bad.

As to which posts, too many to choose from. Take your pick from any of the threads on the subject. I find in general that vapers are more receptive to pro-vaping articles than those against. Just my impression.
 
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Robino1

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Please remember that as smokers we were put down, bullied, made to feel as though we were pariahs.... We found vaping and thought OMG this actually works! Well how about that! I feel better, my health is improving! OMG I can exercise and not get short of breath.

Then the articles start coming out against vaping. We see that they are attacking vaping the same way they started with cigarette smoking... using the same playbook. Then we find out that they have lied for years regarding second hand smoke.

We know how we feel. We see the results in less doctor visits. Some of us even see the results in the medical exams we have compared to when we smoked. According to the Powers That Be, we do not count. We are just anecdotal evidence.

Then we started getting evidence, studies! actual studies! that prove what we have been feeling and thinking. Those were sooo few and far between. Now they are coming out so much faster as this debate wages on and on.

You can't entirely blame us for yelling: HELL YEAH! That's What I'm Talking About.

And then we see the anti smoking crowd start lying and using kids to get their misguided messages across. Yeah, we are bitter and distrustful of those that keep spreading messages against vaping.

We should all question all reports that come out. Some of us are tired of having to do so All The Damn Time. I will continue to keep trying to spread the truth as I know it. Call me a zealot if you will. I know how I feel, I know what vaping has done for me.

Further, I know of several dual users. I don't have a problem with it. The less one smokes, the better. It is harm reduction, in fact.
 

dcdozer

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The only thing I can do besides quitting, is to reduce my consumption along with the number of flavorings. I mostly vape unflavored. Nothing else I can do except be skeptical of what I read - good or bad.

As to which posts, too many to choose from. Take your pick from any of the threads on the subject. I find in general that vapers are more receptive to pro-vaping articles than those against. Just my impression.
Agreed on your first point. All we can do is review the reports objectively and make a judgement based on our opinion of the merits of each. This is the "prudent" thing to do. It sounded as if you haven't read much from the good Drs. I mentioned earlier, so there are some significant gaps in the literature that you are using to make your decisions (and statements on this thread.)

Yes, many vapers are defensive. All of the negative reports seem to be widely proclaimed in the media, but the scientific responses to these, and the ocassional retractions by the authors, are only seen on pro-vaping sites. We're tired. Not an excuse, just an observation.

Again, please check out Dr. Konstantinos, Dr. Sigiel, and Public Health England. If you still feel the same, well, the defense and the prosecution in a legal case can usually get "expert witnesses" to support their side. Or, you may be playing us, trying to stir up doubt. I'm objectively open to either option.
 

tmcguffie

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The internet is a fantastic resource, read as much info as you can, with an open mind and half the brain cells you were born with, I think you will come to the same conclusion that most of us in this forum have already - vaping IS safer (nobody is saying it's safe) than smoking.
Don't mean to be nasty or anything, but this stuff keeps coming up and it really does bug my nipples
 
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Exchaner

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I personally am the type who does not feel bullied or put down when someone questions my habits - whether it is smoking, vaping or even eating too many chocolates. Nor do I automatically reject any opinion that goes against my grain. I simply listen and try to asses the merits of the argument. Objectivity is the key. I will try reading some of the reports from the Dr. I have already read some of his short term studies. For long term conclusions, we will have to wait several more years.

It is true that some experts are bought and paid for. The psychologist who came up with the term "affluenza" is a perfect example. It allowed a wealthy 16 year old to get off free after having killed several people driving intoxicated. The psychologist blamed the affluent parents for having spoiled the child by giving him everything he ever wanted in life.
 
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Jman8

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The only thing I can do besides quitting, is to reduce my consumption along with the number of flavorings. I mostly vape unflavored. Nothing else I can do except be skeptical of what I read - good or bad.

Please explain why quitting / reduction is the prudent course. When I previously asked for it to be spelled out, this is what I meant by that. If something (or more like all things) have benefits and detriments, I would think one would spell out their suggested prudent course, otherwise it is just personal opinion, not based on facts.

As to which posts, too many to choose from. Take your pick from any of the threads on the subject. I find in general that vapers are more receptive to pro-vaping articles than those against. Just my impression.

Why would that surprise you? Show me an internet forum on any topic where they are equally receptive on all counts. I've been on many and the ones that are say about science, for scientists aren't equally receptive to methodologies / philosophies that are non-science related. Never been on a pro-gun rights forum, but I imagine participants on that type of forum favor articles that are pro-gun rights rather than giving equal weight to the anti-gun propaganda.

I fail to understand how you don't recognize the link in OP is propaganda. The information provided to the authors for that article truly amounts to "we don't know" (the long term effects) and yet it is written in vein, "vapers are getting ill and don't know it." That is how I understand your take on it. I can't think of a substance one could name that this wouldn't be the case. Let's take title of article as cited in OP and substitute it with the following:

- New Study Shows How People Who Eat Oranges May Be Making Themselves Sick
- New Study Shows How People Who Vote May Be Making Themselves Sick
- New Study Shows How People Who Breath Indoor Air May Be Making Themselves Sick

Need I go on? All of these strike me as equally valid considerations if the word "may" is all that is needed to support the idea of 'hey be open minded to what this is saying.' If someone that is pro oranges, or pro voting or even pro breathing were to take on the 'making themselves sick' part and try to scrutinize that, would it then be fair for me to say, "why aren't you being open minded?'

Let me know the part in this article that you feel is being dismissed without any consideration for what it is actually saying. I feel myself and another before me did that on this thread. Intentionally did not dismiss what was being said. I'm up for doing more of that, if you are. I enjoy scrutinizing it, and don't have my mind made up. If I am one who hasn't made his mind up with regards to alleged dangers for smoking, it'll be very hard to nail me on the vaping stuff.

Seems like those who are calling for raising a red flag with regards to vaping, when the fact remains "we do not know the long term effects" are the people who are not being all that open minded.
 
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