Vinegar?

[Bostonsnboxers]

Before I go see if another thread exists, allow me to answer this.
I have been vaping all VG for about a year, since I realized PG was causing me some problems, sleepiness/low energy being the most annoying. Then I realized that I didn't need to put up with it, nor the taste that I never cared for. It was a revelation.

Anyway, no, there is no problem with nicotine in VG. I have several bottles of 100 mg/ml nicotine in VG that are over a year old, that were kept at room temp in the original bottles, and it's as good as new. No, there aren't some mysterious pockets unless the solution isn't well stirred in the first place, same as a PG solution.

I use all VG, except for the small quantities of PG that comes with flavoring, but it's not a matter of being religious about anything, I could live with 10 or maybe even 20% PG, before it gets very noticeable, but why should I?

DIY example: I start out with an empty 10 ml bottle, put it on the scale, zero it out, then add the nicotine in VG, which weighs about 1.2 g per ml, so for typical (for me) 10 mg/ml strength, I pour in 1.2 grams of 100mg/ml nicotine (1 ml). Then fill the bottle half way with VG (I usually use Humco that they sell at CVS etc), and add the flavoring recipe, 2% of this, 1% of that, the total doesn't ever exceed 20 drops, which works out to about 5-6%. People who use 25% flavoring aren't vaping VG/PG any longer, and I think they're very very brave. Then I add 5 drops or 0.25 ml of water, and 5 drops (0.20 ml) of PGA or 151 proof liquor. Then finish pouring in the VG to the 10 ml line. Shake under hot water tap, that gets the steeping going. Let it sit overnight in a warm spot, and by morning it's good to go. It wicks plenty well enough for me, you can always add a little more water if you want thinner juice, that doesn't hurt a thing either.

No, it's not an atty killer. There's no sugar or coloring, if I want very sweet I add a drop of sucralose in PG. If I want more "dry", I use a drop or two of FA Bitter Wizard. I use small amounts of FA or PA flavoring. It tastes great, the vapor is great, the amounts of (possibly hazardous - we can't be sure) flavoring is at a minmum, no diacetyl, acetoin or acetylpropionyl. I feel great, no longer tired, no acid stomach, no dry mucous membranes. I'm very cautious about what I add to it, and I'm a very happy vaper, except that sometimes I can't find the door for all the vapor ;-)

Burning juice is a nightmare with some atties, and it's hazardous. Some flavorings can break down to nasty stuff, PG is rather heat-stable, but VG starts to break down over 180 deg celcius. Normally an atty doesn't even get close to that temp, but if it's burning juice with loose glowing wires etc, you will know right away, the more VG in the juice, the easier to tell, because acrolein is formed, and you can detect truly minute amounts as a nasty burned grease taste before there's serious danger. There have been measurements taken, and no acrolein was ever detected under normal vaping conditions from VG. But I know it when I taste it, you will too, and you just have to avoid defective atomizers.

Anyway, sorry to put this here, but I wanted to answer the questions. I assume someone will get a separate VG thread going. Thank you.

One was started...please join in, we're all waiting for you (and anyone else that cares to read/contribute).
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/267961-all-vg-liquid-diy-carry-over-vinegar-thread.html

 

[my4jewels]

I like the balance that it has, but I want "more" somehow. I wonder if I added a little bit of both?

I can only reply as to what I would do, and that would depend. If I wanted the cheesecake to be dominate, I'd go vinegar, if I wanted to accentuate the strawberry, then lemon juice. I've been faced with that dillema myself

added: I should add...overall I find vinegar mellos and smooths (like MTS) and lemon juice makes it pop (like Tart and Sour). Hope that helps...

 

[Bostonsnboxers]

I like the balance that it has, but I want "more" somehow. I wonder if I added a little bit of both?

Here's what I would do. Mix some up and pour out 3 small batches.
For now, do nothing to the 'big' batch.

In one add vinegar, in one add lemon, in the 3rd add both.
Then compare the 3 with the original and add what tastes best to you...or nothing

 

[my4jewels]

I thought you were gonna say that ...oh my goodness, I'm just so lazy...I'll have to wait until I am more motivated...was hoping someone else had tried to bring out a "fruit" and a "creamy" at the same time...much too lazy today...slothlike...today it seems like something this easy is just too much to contemplate...

 

[Bostonsnboxers]

I thought you were gonna say that ...oh my goodness, I'm just so lazy...I'll have to wait until I am more motivated...was hoping someone else had tried to bring out a "fruit" and a "creamy" at the same time...much too lazy today...slothlike...today it seems like something this easy is just too much to contemplate...

Lol! I have had days like that...

Ok, then add 1 drop per ml of each. That's gonna give you 2 drops per ml, which it's been determined that you don't (except for Jimi) taste anything under 4 drops. That should give you the effect of each, with balance.

Did that make sense? lol! I seem to be having a lazy BRAIN day!

 

[my4jewels]

LOL, I will attempt to get up out my computer chair, open my juice drawer, get the bottle of strawberry cheesecake and pour some into a smaller bottle, get my little bottle of lemon juice, get my little bottle of vinegar, open the bottles, drip my vinegar into the SC juice, drip my lemon juice into the SC juice bottle. Then I have to close the vinegar and lemon juice and put it away. Then I have to close and shake my juice really good, taste it somehow(I'm a terrible dripper). If I like it, then I have to do this all over again with the rest of the bottle. I don't know if I have the initiative right now...so much work...tired just thinking about it...maybe tomorrow...time for a nap...

 

[Bostonsnboxers]

LOL, I will attempt to get up out my computer chair, open my juice drawer, get the bottle of strawberry cheesecake and pour some into a smaller bottle, get my little bottle of lemon juice, get my little bottle of vinegar, open the bottles, drip my vinegar into the SC juice, drip my lemon juice into the SC juice bottle. Then I have to close the vinegar and lemon juice and put it away. Then I have to close and shake my juice really good, taste it somehow(I'm a terrible dripper). If I like it, then I have to do this all over again with the rest of the bottle. I don't know if I have the initiative right now...so much work...tired just thinking about it...maybe tomorrow...time for a nap...

nah....nevermind lol!
Enjoy your nap.

 

[AzPlumber]

Whoa, I come barging in here to see what's going on and jewel's taking a nap. I'll tiptoe back out and close the door softly, sweet dreams.

 

[my4jewels]

Wide awake today, lol. I had 30 ml of this juice mixed, 50% strawberry/50% cheesecake flavoring. I took a chance and added 6 drops of lemon juice and 6 drops of ac vinegar. The change was subtle, but each flavor seems to have benefited. The STR is brighter, and the CC is smoother, and I can't detect lemon or vinegar. Total win!

 

[visitlynn]

Pete ~ thank you for starting this fabulous thread!@!
And thank you to everyone who contributed!@! (sorry, but I'm lazy and there's too many of you to research and list.)

I learned so much more than about vinegar (e.g. different flavor enhancers, ph & acid, where folks shop, and different mixing styles). As a DIY newbie, it's impressive to watch creativity evolve and seasoned mixologists give insight. I'm grateful folks share their point of view, appraise, debate, joke, and communicate concerns ~ it's what i appreciate and learn from the most (I can be a bit of a wimp when it comes to expressing my opinion so I highly value it when others do).

I just happen to have some Tart & Sour in the fridge, added 2 drops to 5ml of blueberry juice, and vaped my face off while reading this discussion from start to finish (around 5-6 hours with checking the added links). The T&S does give the juice a little zing and seems to enhance the flavor. I'm excited to try ACV and other vinegars as well.


This T&S blueberry juice alone is more than worth the read! With my new knowledge of flavor enhancers I think this thread will be beneficial to my cooking skills too.

 

[Str8V8ping]

Before I go see if another thread exists, allow me to answer this.
I have been vaping all VG for about a year, since I realized PG was causing me some problems, sleepiness/low energy being the most annoying. Then I realized that I didn't need to put up with it, nor the taste that I never cared for. It was a revelation.

Anyway, no, there is no problem with nicotine in VG. I have several bottles of 100 mg/ml nicotine in VG that are over a year old, that were kept at room temp in the original bottles, and it's as good as new. No, there aren't some mysterious pockets unless the solution isn't well stirred in the first place, same as a PG solution.

I use all VG, except for the small quantities of PG that comes with flavoring, but it's not a matter of being religious about anything, I could live with 10 or maybe even 20% PG, before it gets very noticeable, but why should I?

DIY example: I start out with an empty 10 ml bottle, put it on the scale, zero it out, then add the nicotine in VG, which weighs about 1.2 g per ml, so for typical (for me) 10 mg/ml strength, I pour in 1.2 grams of 100mg/ml nicotine (1 ml). Then fill the bottle half way with VG (I usually use Humco that they sell at CVS etc), and add the flavoring recipe, 2% of this, 1% of that, the total doesn't ever exceed 20 drops, which works out to about 5-6%. People who use 25% flavoring aren't vaping VG/PG any longer, and I think they're very very brave. Then I add 5 drops or 0.25 ml of water, and 5 drops (0.20 ml) of PGA or 151 proof liquor. Then finish pouring in the VG to the 10 ml line. Shake under hot water tap, that gets the steeping going. Let it sit overnight in a warm spot, and by morning it's good to go. It wicks plenty well enough for me, you can always add a little more water if you want thinner juice, that doesn't hurt a thing either.

No, it's not an atty killer. There's no sugar or coloring, if I want very sweet I add a drop of sucralose in PG. If I want more "dry", I use a drop or two of FA Bitter Wizard. I use small amounts of FA or PA flavoring. It tastes great, the vapor is great, the amounts of (possibly hazardous - we can't be sure) flavoring is at a minmum, no diacetyl, acetoin or acetylpropionyl. I feel great, no longer tired, no acid stomach, no dry mucous membranes. I'm very cautious about what I add to it, and I'm a very happy vaper, except that sometimes I can't find the door for all the vapor ;-)

Burning juice is a nightmare with some atties, and it's hazardous. Some flavorings can break down to nasty stuff, PG is rather heat-stable, but VG starts to break down over 180 deg celcius. Normally an atty doesn't even get close to that temp, but if it's burning juice with loose glowing wires etc, you will know right away, the more VG in the juice, the easier to tell, because acrolein is formed, and you can detect truly minute amounts as a nasty burned grease taste before there's serious danger. There have been measurements taken, and no acrolein was ever detected under normal vaping conditions from VG. But I know it when I taste it, you will too, and you just have to avoid defective atomizers.

Anyway, sorry to put this here, but I wanted to answer the questions. I assume someone will get a separate VG thread going. Thank you.

Where are you getting the info that nic pockets dont form in VG nic . It absolutly does . Iv read numerous things saying it does as well as Madvapes testing found it to be true . RTS also says it happen which i why they have a special process just for VG nic to avoid bottling these pockets.

I dont get how anything over 6% flavor is crazy when its totally normal for everyone in this industry to mix as highe as 20-30% flavor. It all depends on the flavoring used. Flavors are made up of mostly PG or Vg so why wouldnt we be vaping PG/VG anymore at 20% flavoring. Just because its a flavoring doesnt mean that its all flavoring .THeres only a very small amount of actual flavoring ingedients in a flavoring bottle . The main part is PG.Can you explain why you think this ?

 

[AzPlumber]

Where are you getting the info that nic pockets dont form in VG nic . It absolutly does . Iv read numerous things saying it does as well as Madvapes testing found it to be true . RTS also says it happen which i why they have a special process just for VG nic to avoid bottling these pockets.

I dont get how anything over 6% flavor is crazy when its totally normal for everyone in this industry to mix as highe as 20-30% flavor. It all depends on the flavoring used. Flavors are made up of mostly PG or Vg so why wouldnt we be vaping PG/VG anymore at 20% flavoring. Just because its a flavoring doesnt mean that its all flavoring .THeres only a very small amount of actual flavoring ingedients in a flavoring bottle . The main part is PG.Can you explain why you think this ?

Yes, MadVapes has detected hot spots in VG nic but to be more precise and not create concern they also agree these hot spots are caused by improper initial mixing and not from settling or separation. In other words if it is initially mixed thoroughly, hot spots are not a concern. Anyone doing DIY should have a nicotine test kit and at the very least use it on every new bottle of nic base they buy.

If you are mixing with a high VG ratio, make sure you get it completely mixed together. Make sure you have enough empty space in your bottle so that it will mix properly when shaken. IMO using heat is the best way to get your liquids mixed thoroughly. I use a single burner hot plate with a small sauce pan of water at about 145 degrees for heating my DIY stuff.

 

[vittiv]

Thanks for all the great info here!

I still have my experimenting to do, but thought readers of this thread might be interested in this research paper.

Effect of pH on Nicotine Absorption and Side Effects Produced by Aerosolized Nicotine.

If you want to skip the science jargon, just scroll down and look at the graphs. The authors found that nicotine levels in the blood are higher when the pH of the solution is higher. At pH 11, they found the highest levels of blood nicotine concentration.

Regarding side effects, cough was more common and throat burning (throat hit?) was less prevalent at higher pH. Their solution at a pH of 7.5 had the highest "throat burning."

It sounds to me like this is applicable to vaping, but I could be mistaken about "aerosolized" being similar to what we do. Either way, don't try to replicate the procedure outlined in this paper.

 

[GoodDog]

Look what I found. Blue Pacific Flavors-Taste Technologies

B-Block™
A breakthrough flavor technology that block’s bitter flavor receptor sites on the tongue. The innovative blend of bitter blocking compounds and flavor enhancing compounds blocks bitter and astringent notes, while simultaneously lifting and enhancing the overall desirable flavor of a food or beverage. Blocks the “off notes” typically associated with: Vitamins, Minerals, Fish Oil, Soy, Preservatives, and many other functional food ingredients.

 

[Lyndagayle]

Look what I found. Blue Pacific Flavors-Taste Technologies

B-Block™
A breakthrough flavor technology that block’s bitter flavor receptor sites on the tongue. The innovative blend of bitter blocking compounds and flavor enhancing compounds blocks bitter and astringent notes, while simultaneously lifting and enhancing the overall desirable flavor of a food or beverage. Blocks the “off notes” typically associated with: Vitamins, Minerals, Fish Oil, Soy, Preservatives, and many other functional food ingredients.

This got my attention. Has anyone here tried any of their flavors yet? Good find GoodDog! They sure look good!

[h=2]Blue Pacific's Confectionery Flavor Portfolio was created to meet the specific processing requirements of hard candy, chewing gum, soft gels, fondants and chocolate/nougat based confectionery manufacturers. The flavor systems were engineered to be heat stable and provide long lasting flavor after processing.[/h]

 

[GoodDog]

I think they just sell and develop for the industry so unfortunately I don't think we can buy direct from them. It wouldn't hurt for someone to contact them. Perhaps they would consider a separate division for consumers.

 

[bluegrasslover]

Look what I found. Blue Pacific Flavors-Taste Technologies

B-Block™
A breakthrough flavor technology that block’s bitter flavor receptor sites on the tongue. The innovative blend of bitter blocking compounds and flavor enhancing compounds blocks bitter and astringent notes, while simultaneously lifting and enhancing the overall desirable flavor of a food or beverage. Blocks the “off notes” typically associated with: Vitamins, Minerals, Fish Oil, Soy, Preservatives, and many other functional food ingredients.

A little off topic but this looks interesting as well
A-liminate™
A-liminate™ is an exciting new natural flavor modifier engineered to eliminate the Stevia/Reb-A aftertaste in finished beverages. A-liminate enhances the rheology and mouthfeel of the finished drink to better replicate sugar-sweetened beverages.

 

[Fernand]

Where are you getting the info that nic pockets dont form in VG nic .

I dont get how anything over 6% flavor is crazy when its totally normal for everyone in this industry to mix as highe as 20-30% flavor. It all depends on the flavoring used. Flavors are made up of mostly PG or Vg so why wouldnt we be vaping PG/VG anymore at 20% flavoring. Just because its a flavoring doesnt mean that its all flavoring .THeres only a very small amount of actual flavoring ingedients in a flavoring bottle . The main part is PG.Can you explain why you think this ?

As to "pockets", the solubility of nicotine being what it is, a properly mixed PG or VG solution of nicotine is not going to separate, in PG or VG. But if you're worried about your vendor's production practices, warm a little and shake.

As to the flavoring percentages, it's more of a statistical issue. Let's get one thing out of the way. Since when do you consider what "everyone" does as being smart, especially when there's money to be made? and can we agree that none of these "everyones" have actual inhalation toxicity data for flavorings in hand?

We simply have no idea about the inhalation toxicity of the widely used food flavorings. They were never tested that way. Long term, some will turn out to be damaging, some won't. Diacetyl, acetylpropionyl, acetoin and derivatives had nothing special about them that would suggest what we now know, which is that some people who inhaled them at work have developed obvious and irreversible lung damage, and that you can kill lab animals in a matter of hours with pretty low concentrations of these compounds in a mist, say 200 parts per million.

Now, given that we all agree we like flavored vape, the only sensible approach is to keep the flavoring level as low as possible, to reduce the odds of ending up as an unfortunate example of "oops". The typical flavorings are what they call normalized in PG, so that 1% of one flavoring will sort of be similar in potency to 1% of another. The amount of actual flavoring molecules might average 40% in some cases, 20 or 80% in another. But it's not insignificant.

The use of flavoring that's typical for foodstuffs is disclosed by Flavourart as being 0.1% as I recall. They typically flavor their production juices at 2-5%. That's high by food standards. Anyone who tests thoroughly will find that 5% is a pretty satisfying flavoring level for many people once they adjust, and they do. Of course, if you blast yourself with 25% flavoring, it will be ... more flavored. But 1) is it necessary and 2) is it in any way fair to describe a liquid with 25% flavoring as consisting of "low toxicity PG and VG"? It's a big difference in exposure to stuff that has never been assayed for inhalation toxicity. Does it matter? Let's take acetylpropionyl. Animals die at 200 ppm acetylpropionyl, but at 1/5 of that, 40 ppm, they show no damage; those are real results. In this case, reducing the flavoring level to 1/5 the amount would mean the difference between life and death. So, does 25% flavoring seems as reasonable as 5%?

But, you ask, how do I arrive at the statement that 25% flavoring is crazy? Most of all on the basis of the above, including the fortunate fact that 5% of well-designed flavoring works just fine for many people, myself included. But feel free to disagree, and especially to point out that maybe not 5% but 1% should be used, and maybe none. I can't dispute that, but given that most people find 5% flavorful and 1% unsatisfying, we're down to what chances we're all willing to take.

 

[OntariAuLait]

But, you ask, how do I arrive at the statement that 25% flavoring is crazy? Most of all on the basis of the above, including the fortunate fact that 5% of well-designed flavoring works just fine for many people, myself included. But feel free to disagree, and especially to point out that maybe not 5% but 1% should be used, and maybe none. I can't dispute that, but given that most people find 5% flavorful and 1% unsatisfying, we're down to what chances we're all willing to take.

But that's the difference between your "well-designed" flavours and others. The others are just more diluted, it doesn't mean there is 20% flavouring molecules, it means there is 20% worth of molecules mixed with PG. If you take your same well designed flavouring and dilute it with as much PG, you'll now need to put 10% worth of that dilution in your mix. There are no more flavour molecules than before...just more PG. It's not that crazy!

The percentage of flavouring in a mix doesn't at all reflect how many molecules of flavouring there are in it, and it's not a scale you can rely on for that purpose. It varies between brands. 5% of FlavourArt and 25% of FlavorWest could have the exact same amount of flavouring molecules in them, but FlavourArt sells them to you packed in a smaller amount of neutral liquid.

On the topic of bitter blockers...I often wonder if they're all derived from that miracle berry thing. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/dining/28flavor.html

 

[mgmrick]

I tired the acv just did not hold up for me. In my search I have found a flavor concentrate that works great at 2.5% alcochol based. Being discused right now.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/270008-new-super-concentrated-flavors.html