FDA Was nic base available pre 2007?

[Kent C]

1) Nic inhalers are a totallly different technology - they don't use heat. And remember the entire product has to be on the market pre-'07. No "cutting and pasting" as it were. Besides nic inhalers are on the market as medical devices, not tobacco products.

It's 'inhaling nicotine' - not chewing it, not absorbing it through the skin - that's the predicate aspect. Doesn't really matter who's regulating. CASAA should bring it up only that aspect of it - plus they should add that the nic base is has worse stuff than PG and VG.

They hit us with everything - kitchen sink style, we should do the same - actually make them explain in long form why this isn't a predicate.

 

[op22222]

Absolutely. But this is the first stepping stone to tax them, and heavily. How hard would it be to impose a tax per mg of nic liquid? I'm sure they'll figure a way to ensure they get their piece of the pie...

I'm curious about something. We know there's a nicotine inhalor already on the market in the Pharmaceutical industry. I know its separate than tobacco, but that would still mean nicotine was approved as a liquid to be inhaled in a PG base. I know it needs a prescription, but... I wonder if there's a way to correlate it??? Surely there were studies done prior to this device being approved. So I'm wondering, could those studies/tests be used to bring nicotine base to the market much cheaper...it would save thousands of dollars in testing/studies.

If I'm not mistaking , Ohio just passed a HUGE tax on ejuice. and whatnot. Tropical Vapors...an Ohio based business is liquidating its stock online.... I just received some super deals from them! Sad tho . The snowball is rolling down the mountain as we speak! Getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

If I'm not mistaking , Ohio just passed a HUGE tax on ejuice. and whatnot. Tropical Vapors...an Ohio based business is liquidating its stock online.... I just received some super deals from them! Sad tho . The snowball is rolling down the mountain as we speak! Getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

And the other states will follow, especially after it's deemed a tobacco product.

 

[Culinarytracker]

So-o is this the end of this thread/quest/idea

I guess I started this thread just expecting that someone would know the answer and I would get a yes or no.
Looks like it's no. You couldn't buy 100mg nic base back then.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

 

[Katya]

It's 'inhaling nicotine' - not chewing it, not absorbing it through the skin - that's the predicate aspect. Doesn't really matter who's regulating. CASAA should bring it up only that aspect of it - plus they should add that the nic base is has worse stuff than PG and VG.

They hit us with everything - kitchen sink style, we should do the same - actually make them explain in long form why this isn't a predicate.

Nicotrol is prescription only, but Nicorette QuickMist (Johson&Johson) is not--it can be bought online by anybody, no age restrictions, and is recommended for adults and children 12 (sic) years of age.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/casaa/536881-more-war-e-cigs.html#post13037647

This is an interesting read--wonder what happened to that device:

New Nicotine Inhaler May Help Smokers Quit

"It would be great to have a product that would deliver nicotine as well as a cigarette," McIntosh tells WebMD.

"We are trying to give smokers the whole package they really are addicted to by trying to recreate that in a way we hope is far less harmful," Rose says. "We think most problems in cigarettes -- carcinogens and so forth -- come from things in smoke other than nicotine. We avoid them by giving nicotine without all those problems."

 

[WillyZee]

I guess I started this thread just expecting that someone would know the answer and I would get a yes or no.
Looks like it's no. You couldn't buy 100mg nic base back then.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

yeah, it looks like a no ... I would grab a 500ml bottle to be covered Culinarytracker

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Whoa hold your horses. OH hasn't passed a 49% wholesale tax on vaping yet.

See this CASAA call: CASAA: Call to Action! Ohio's Governor Kasich is Proposing a Tax on E-Cigarettes and Smokeless Tobacco at an Outrageous 49% of Wholesale

and follow the action here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cigs-increasing-cigarette-otp-tax-budget.html

***

Kent, someone would have to file an SE application to even think about using the inhaler loophole that you wishfully hope for. If the application wasn't done properly, they could toss it on other grounds. It's not as if we can just "ask" them. Sure, we can try in the comments. But there's probably a way around that. For ex., they could just say what I said: namely a predicate product can't be an approved therapy and/or that the similarity is not enough due to the temp. difference (and vector, now that you mention it). They can't be taken to court for a specious or even flippant response. Perhaps they could get hauled up before a congressional committee or a member could send them an inquiry. CASAA may very well pursue that route, who knows. But they certainly aren't obligated to provide a sensible answer to anyone besides congress until they reject an SE application and get taken to court. Which means someone has to ante up a nice chunk of change for a fairly big bet.

If I'm not mistaking , Ohio just passed a HUGE tax on ejuice. and whatnot. Tropical Vapors...an Ohio based business is liquidating its stock online.... I just received some super deals from them! Sad tho . The snowball is rolling down the mountain as we speak! Getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

 

[Stosh]

yeah, it looks like a no ... I would grab a 500ml bottle to be covered Culinarytracker

Let the stockpiling begin........I've even built a spreadsheet that will show the number of years mine will last with different numbers of mL/day and different mg/mL vaped for the mL of concentrate in the freezer....

The problem still remains for the n00b vapers, and the million of smokers that haven't found vaping yet. We can't stop fighting on every front that we can!

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

yeah, it looks like a no ... I would grab a 500ml bottle to be covered Culinarytracker

Get in line. (And no shoving). From Wizard Labs:

NOTICE: 5/5/2014 - The recent news regarding proposed FDA regulations has caused a higher than normal demand resulting in increased processing times for our lab. We are currently processing orders from 5/1, and our staff has volunteered to work extra hours until the backlog is cleared. We apologize for this inconvenience. We are urging everyone concerned to refrain from panic buying at this time, and to follow casaa.org for factual information and call to action updates.

And save me a spot, will ya?

 

[badwolf91]

so maybe they can move to iowa? we just passed a reg stating ecigs are NOT tobacco and will not be taxed additionally. this may change but is a breath of fresh vapor compared to what is happening in some other states. Maybe we can still strike this down with CASAA's help, I am making donations. or change the date that products need to submit approval to after the proposed date of the regs. either way these state tax's may be able to be changed when we all fight it and show them that this is safer and we should not be demonized to make up for their tax dollars on cancer patients or future patients. we can expose this I feel if we fight hard we can at least push them back a few yards so to say and maybe get SOME sort of compromise. I too will be stocking up but I don't think now is the time.. still perfecting my DIY. but we have 2 years until they can implement the FDA reg's if they go through as are, meaning lots of time for things to change and the fight to really come to the front lines. I fear to many vapors are not going to know about this until after they hear about how it will affect them.... ;( . I am getting even non vapors to see that there is sensible non biased research and tell the FDA that they are making it obvious that they are just wanting to give their friends in big tobacco the industry/ruin the industry that has come so far. think where we could be in another 24 months if people continue to pick up vaping like they have recently. I mean im only 5-6 months in tops and I am completely dedicated. we will pick up many more if they remain available for 2 years which will help, I hope. if not I will be stocking up in the next 6months to a year as I already have enough to last a year lol.

we do have some breathing room, I do feel very dearly for those in states imposing these 50-90% tax's as its just sad. I would be rallying for revolution lol and may be in the future sooner than later they are going to effect to many peoples rights. I will send letters to your states but not living there I wont be taken as serious but I can note I do pass through many states. once I get some time here I want to address every open call to action.

 

[aikanae1]

NO it's not a bust. Njoy's nic liquid was imported at the same time someone else did. That's only half of it. They both were importing Ruyen.

And that's all I found, consider I'm not an expert at this stuff (by a LONG shot). There was one website, based in the US also selling eliquid. The others were in China. Heven's Gifts was one of those. I know from other stuff that trade dept and DOJ consider websites targeting US consumers are the same as if they were based in the US.

Obviously nicotine was legal to purchase so it existed in some form. Maybe Kurt would have more information.

I was not able to search ECF files prior to 2009/2008 for some reason. I know there are threads from 2007 on here. I think there might be even earlier archives. Someone or group needs to take this on as a mission. Finding those import documents were sweet but I have no idea how to search that site. I didn't spend more than a couple of hours on it.

The way the FDA keeps saying there isn't any equivilant leads me to strongly believe there is. There's no other reason for them to keep repeating that. I suspect we don't know what's considered "equivilant" but I don't know. Something is fishy. It could also be obvious - could someone contact a US chemical company and order nic prior to 2007?

Does anyone know who was the first to offer nic?

I'll be honest. Bashing this or that doesn't help locate nic. Either help or find another thread.

1) Nic inhalers are a totallly different technology - they don't use heat. And remember the entire product has to be on the market pre-'07. No "cutting and pasting" as it were. Besides nic inhalers are on the market as medical devices, not tobacco products.

2) Taxing is usually done in the vaping context by wholesale price %. At least that's how it's been proposed in the states that are looking at it (VT, NJ, OH who else?) and MN which already does it (?).

3) NJOY's e-liquid wouldn't do us any good anyway since they're already going to do an application for their own cigAlikes. I was hoping for someone else's e-liquid, i.e. something sold separately to vapers. Guess that one's a bust.

4) Oh and on the studies used to get nic inhalers approved - these are the wrong kind of studies for a new product application, at least they aren't the whole ball of wax. New OTC products have to be studied for their effect on tobacco product use - cessation by adults, uptake by minors, continued tobacco product use (i.e. discouraging smokers from quitting), etc.

So-o is this the end of this thread/quest/idea

 

[op22222]

I've searched the net for a time before feb 2007 and there is mention of late 2006 but not any concrete facts on who the actual companies were. The FDA did their homework before stating a time frame. There has got to be another angle to argue. We'll just have to wait and see......

 

[aikanae1]

There is another reason for the date in 2007. No grand conspiracy (well, not about that anyway).

Hmmm... So I found more than you?

I've searched the net for a time before feb 2007 and there is mention of late 2006 but not any concrete facts on who the actual companies were. The FDA did their homework before stating a time frame. There has got to be another angle to argue. We'll just have to wait and see......

 

[Kent C]

Nicotrol is prescription only, but Nicorette QuickMist (Johson&Johson) is not--it can be bought online by anybody, no age restrictions, and is recommended for adults and children 12 (sic) years of age.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/casaa/536881-more-war-e-cigs.html#post13037647

This is an interesting read--wonder what happened to that device:

New Nicotine Inhaler May Help Smokers Quit

"It would be great to have a product that would deliver nicotine as well as a cigarette," McIntosh tells WebMD.

[I]"We are trying to give smokers the whole package they really are addicted to by trying to recreate that in a way we hope is far less harmful," Rose says. "We think most problems in cigarettes -- carcinogens and so forth -- come from things in smoke other than nicotine. We avoid them by giving nicotine without all those problems."[/I]

What a novel idea!!

 

[op22222]

There is another reason for the date in 2007. No grand conspiracy (well, not about that anyway).

Hmmm... So I found more than you?

You got me!

 

[Kent C]

NO it's not a bust. Njoy's nic liquid was imported at the same time someone else did. That's only half of it. They both were importing Ruyen.

And that's all I found, consider I'm not an expert at this stuff (by a LONG shot). There was one website, based in the US also selling eliquid. The others were in China. Heven's Gifts was one of those. I know from other stuff that trade dept and DOJ consider websites targeting US consumers are the same as if they were based in the US.

Obviously nicotine was legal to purchase so it existed in some form. Maybe Kurt would have more information.

I was not able to search ECF files prior to 2009/2008 for some reason. I know there are threads from 2007 on here. I think there might be even earlier archives. Someone or group needs to take this on as a mission. Finding those import documents were sweet but I have no idea how to search that site. I didn't spend more than a couple of hours on it.

The way the FDA keeps saying there isn't any equivilant leads me to strongly believe there is. There's no other reason for them to keep repeating that. I suspect we don't know what's considered "equivilant" but I don't know. Something is fishy. It could also be obvious - could someone contact a US chemical company and order nic prior to 2007?

Does anyone know who was the first to offer nic?

I'll be honest. Bashing this or that doesn't help locate nic. Either help or find another thread.

I don't have any sources but this is what is needed in some form:

FDA recommends that you provide evidence that the tobacco product was commercially marketed in the United States (not in test markets) on February 15, 2007. This information should demonstrate that the tobacco product was not distributed for test marketing only. Examples of such information may include, but are not limited to, the following:

•dated copies of advertisements;
•dated catalog pages;
•dated promotional material;
•dated trade publications;
•dated manufacturing documents;
•dated bills of lading;
•dated freight bills;
•dated waybills; and/or
•complete copies of any supporting information that demonstrate (individually or collectively) that the tobacco product was commercially marketed in the United States on February 15, 2007.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM334750.pdf

And 'Heaven Gifts' was ruyandirect.com back then.

 

[op22222]

I stumbled upon a chemical and lab supply company in the USA that was selling nicotine in 2005 and still does sell it presently. They supply heartlandvapes. Here is a link to there MSD sheet from 2005.
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9926222
I know it's not much, but some of you folks out there might be able to research it. I'm no investigative guru by any means!!

 

[Katya]

I was not able to search ECF files prior to 2009/2008 for some reason. I know there are threads from 2007 on here. I think there might be even earlier archives.

I searched. Smokey Joe founded this forum in 2007--I found his earliest post about eliquids. You can do a search for old posts via Advanced search > Sort Search Results > in Ascending order.

 

[aikanae1]

Every nugget is helpful. I never thought about advanced search. DOH.

 

[Stosh]

I've only been able to locate two companies that meet the date requirement, and had eliquid in any form or strength. I used https://domai.nr/ to search for the Whois information, including the creation date.

Domain Name: FEELLIFE.COM
Registrar: HICHINA ZHICHENG TECHNOLOGY LTD.
Updated Date: 08-mar-2012
Creation Date: 11-jan-2004
Expiration Date: 11-jan-2021

Domain Name: LIQUIDNICOTINE.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, LLC
Updated Date: 17-jan-2014
Creation Date: 16-jan-2007
Expiration Date: 16-jan-2015