What are your views of the impending flavor ban?

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umop apisdn

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The way it looks, either e-cigs are going to be banned outright (de-facto from lack of testing) as they could be drug delivery devices, or we will lose the option to buy prepared flavored juice.

Not only that, but the Nanny States of America (NSA) is banning ALL flavored tobacco products, from snus, to shisha, to cigarettes, in fact all tobacco products.

This concerns me greatly. Not only is this an attack on freedom from the government, but it is also a destruction of our fundamental right to the pursuit of happiness. Say what you will, but choice in our habits is what makes us happy, from our vices to our daily routine. The government has no right to restrict this so long as we are not harming others or restricting the rights of others.

For some reason, the "second-hand smoke" argument is the only rule that actually matters in law these days. To an extent, I agree with it. We shouldn't be allowed to smoke in confined spaces where others have to be. This makes sense in places such as work, school, hospitals, etc. Not only that, but because of this "second-hand smoke" argument which labels all nicotine users as detrimental to society (although most perform better while using nicotine, and there are no detrimental effects of your functioning while "under the influence", if you will, of nicotine).

Because of this, must we suffer the consequences of banning flavors? The NSA feels that it must "protect the children". For some reason, unknown to me, this rule only applies to tobacco/nicotine products, and it explicitly means now that flavors are for children. Where did America go so wrong that this is now widely regarded as public opinion while alcohol products are completely ignored?

What will happen? Will we try to change the social and legal atmosphere? Or will we just adapt to it and start selling such flavors separately to fill in the niche? Sadly, the latter seems to be the future. Those who want their flavored cigar, snus, and shisha will have to resort to a black market since flavoring them won't be as simple as adding a drop to our e-juice. I feel it's time we unite and make a stand. (Maybe even impeaching Obama for signing this unconstitutional law. If the courts won't do it, we might have to do it ourselves.)

What disgusts me is that suppliers and organizations, NJOY and the ECA specifically, are conforming to this mindset, without realizing the grave consequences it entails. Yes, it might keep e-cigs from being banned, but it's taking the easy way out and effectively letting our rights lay down and die.

It won't be long before this mindset moves away from tobacco and starts attacking everything else. Look at the idea of taxing sugared sodas in the name of obesity.

Well, that was a novel, but it explains my views on this. What are yours?
 

Silence

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My view is to tend to agree with you. But there are ways around the flavor ban for us. Kristin has already drafted and sent a letter to at least nJoy asking for an unflavored option. This is, I feel, probably the most viable option at this stage. We could at least then add our own flavors to the unflavored juice. Surely, the government cannot categorize unflavored as a flavor. As far as the NSA attacking other products, I don't think that will happen as products like apple pucker do not kill people with cancer, they kill with cars. Unfortunately, all tobacco products have been lumped in with traditional cigarettes. This means that e-cigarettes will more than likely be heavily regulated also.
I agree with most of the regulation. However, I do not agree that flavors will keep children away. I think that having to spend a good deal of cash upfront and the work that has to go into maintaining these devices for use will limit their exposure to children. But, I can guarantee that the government will not see things my way. If nothing else I will make my own juice...
 

ebonyknight

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So what is the situation specifically with e-juice? Are the flavored ones going away or not? If so, when?

I live in Virginny, the tobacco capital of the states and now even they have banned in door smoking. I never thought I would actually live to see the day!!!

I remember specific restaurants that would allow you to smoke. Then there were times when you could smoke, then smoking sections. Now these same establishments are non-smoking. I would understand when I would go to other states, but to see this in Virginia....

Now I think I know how the flag waving confederates feel about their flag.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. What's the specific situation concerning e-juice, because I just started and I don't want it to go away. :-x
 

Silence

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The specifics are that nJoy has decided to discontinue all flavors of juice except for tobacco and menthol. They are claiming that e-cigs are a tobacco product and therefore are trying to conform as one. When regulation does come out, if e-cigs are ruled as a tobacco product then they will be regulated as such and all flavors but tobacco and menthol will go away. nJoy is just trying to get ahead of the bullet.
 

Silence

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"Flavored Tobacco

On September 22, 2009 a ban on cigarettes containing certain characterizing flavors went into effect. The ban, authorized by the new Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, is part of a national effort by FDA to reduce smoking in America.

FDA’s ban on candy and fruit-flavored cigarettes highlights the importance of reducing the number of children who start to smoke, and who become addicted to dangerous tobacco products. FDA is also examining options for regulating both menthol cigarettes and flavored tobacco products other than cigarettes.

According to the act

…a cigarette or any of its component parts (including the tobacco, filter, or paper) shall not contain, as a constituent (including a smoke constituent) or additive, an artificial or natural flavor (other than tobacco or menthol) or an herb or spice, including strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon, pineapple, vanilla, coconut, licorice, cocoa, chocolate, cherry, or coffee, that is a characterizing flavor of the tobacco product or tobacco smoke

Any company who continues to make, ship or sell such products may be subject to FDA enforcement actions. You are encouraged to report any company that sells cigarettes with these certain characterizing flavors."

This is from the FDA's website... Flavored Tobacco

It looks like they are going to attempt to regulate menthol as well... as far as why it was not included in the ban. I believe it was because of the statement made at the beginning. Candy and fruit flavors...
 

Vapor Pete

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I don't understand how Menthol isn't included in the flavor ban.....

I believe that is because when the FDA put their stamp of approval on cigarettes, they still thought that any flavor in any tobacco was a CLEAR indicator that the product is marketed to entice children to use it. So it banned flavors. But Big Tobacco said, "Wooh.. wait... if you ban menthol, we lose a considerable amount of money?! Menthol is a huge seller!!" So, having the best interest of the tobacco companies in mind, the FDA deemed menthol immune from the ban. Menthol in any from now can be used. I could be wrong, but thats been my understanding.

My best,
-VP
 

kristin

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It's an absolutely ridiculous idea, that flavored tobacco entices children to smoke. There are absolutely no studies, that I am aware of, that show that this is true. I think the danger was grossly inflated, to give the antis something to get a "victory" over, so they can keep getting their funding and so politicians could look good, because tobacco isn't going away.

There are a lot more people who drink than people who smoke. Liquor and (supposedly) NRTs aren't shown to cause cancer, emphyseima and heart disease. The liquor of choice for most alcoholics is rarely a fruit flavored liquor. Liquor and NRTs don't carry the social stigma of tobacco, so they aren't ever going to be a target. They don't have ridiculous claims against them, like they can cause a heart attack within 30 minutes if you're exposed to them just once??? Since smokers are such a small percentage of the population and most non-smokers dislike second-hand smoke, it's easy to vilify and hard to get the majority of the population to care if we have flavors or not. Smokers (and now vapers) are an easy target. We are considered no less than drug addicts, regardless of the actual impact of our use has on society as a whole. We may as well be crack ......., as far as these people are concerned. Thdey don't agree that our habit affects no one else. They don't want their kids to start smoking, so they don;t want us to be seen nor heard.

This is the political climate we live in. We have no "right to smoke" or "right to vape." We are not a protected class. Our right to pursue happiness ends when it endangers ourselves and other members of society - the same reason street drugs are illegal. People view our habit as infringing on their personal space and endagering their children, by enticing them into starting an unhealthy and potentially deadly habit - smoking. They have been told that e-cigs are a gateway device for tobacco.

We have to get the numbers to prove them wrong. We have to somehow show them that kids DON'T think e-cigs are cool and they are NOT interested in them. We have to prove to them that the large majority of e-cig users (and the target market) is already smoking and over 30 years old. We have to show them, through approved testing, that these users are actually better off by using e-cigs than using tobacco. We have to show them that using an e-cig is to a smoker what low fat frozen yogurt is to a person trying to avoid fattening ice cream and eat healthier. (Dessert is not a necessity, it's a luxury, a treat. But if you're going to do it, make a healthier choice.) But we can't make those claims until we have undeniable proof. For that, we need a respected, wealthy medical organization to conduct studies and testing. (This won't affect the FDA approval, but it would have a huge impact on public opinion, if the FDA report is shown to have been incomplete and inconclusive.)

The "right to vape" argument will never get us anywhere. However, the "right to live healthier & safer" WILL. But we have to prove what we are saying is TRUE, first.
 

soylent

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I think if they ban flavors for PV's that they should ban flavors for nicotine gum and losenges also.....

Maureen

Love this argument!



I will miss some of specialty flavors I haven't yet been able to DIY like RY4, but there are plenty of other recipes I make myself and we'll always be able to find nicotine on the internet. As long as they still sell unflavored I'm good. And if they can't, suppliers better sell levels of tobacco flavoring like double, reg, weak, super-weak, ultra-mega-weak.

And if the ban continues to the e-cig, I don't think it will be such a bad thing (personally, sucks for the smokers). I can make/buy battery mods, nicotine sources a plenty, and rebuilding/recreating atties is developing fast. The modders would start coming out of the woodwork.
 

kristin

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I believe that is because when the FDA put their stamp of approval on cigarettes, they still thought that any flavor in any tobacco was a CLEAR indicator that the product is marketed to entice children to use it. So it banned flavors. But Big Tobacco said, "Wooh.. wait... if you ban menthol, we lose a considerable amount of money?! Menthol is a huge seller!!" So, having the best interest of the tobacco companies in mind, the FDA deemed menthol immune from the ban. Menthol in any from now can be used. I could be wrong, but thats been my understanding.

My best,
-VP

"Some lawmakers have said the decision to exempt menthol from the bill’s flavorings ban was intended to win support for the legislation from Philip Morris, the country’s dominant tobacco company, whose Marlboro Menthol is the second-leading menthol brand.

Some smoking opponents have said they consider the menthol exemption as a necessary compromise to get the legislation passed. They have said that the bill as currently drafted would give the F.D.A. the authority to limit or eliminate additives, including menthol, if proved to be harmful."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/business/01menthol.html?_r=1
 

kristin

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And if the ban continues to the e-cig, I don't think it will be such a bad thing (personally, sucks for the smokers)..

Doesn't really affect anyone except a tiny portion of the tobacco market.

Menthol is only 28% of the market, so imagine what a miniscule number of fruit and clove flavors were sold, compared to regular tobacco.
 

umop apisdn

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I don't understand how Menthol isn't included in the flavor ban.....

I'm not 100% sure (as in I can't quote it off hand), but this is actually a racial argument. A disproportionately high percentage of black people smoke menthol compared to traditional tobacco, and I think the NAACP or some other organization made a case against the ban of menthol.

And is chocolate vodka or whatever going to be banned too??? Craziness!!

You'd think so, wouldn't you? A substance that has been shown to ruin families, has a high abuse potential, causes acute sickness if abused, destroys your proper functioning under the influence, and can kill you should you drink too much (too much being the amount you can readily buy), should be receiving much more flak than tobacco. Oh yeah, and ask any "kid", much more of them drink than smoke.

I think if they ban flavors for PV's that they should ban flavors for nicotine gum and losenges also.....

Maureen

No! Beside the fact that they should ban these in favor of PV's (well, that's an opinion actually), limiting flavors and choice are always a bad idea. Besides, we could always use them as an argument for flavored e-juice and tobacco products.
 

soylent

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Doesn't really affect anyone except a tiny portion of the tobacco market.

Menthol is only 28% of the market, so imagine what a miniscule number of fruit and clove flavors were sold, compared to regular tobacco.

Sorry, that last part was for if the flavor ban extends to a total e-cig ban.

I agree though. Banning flavored cigarettes affected such a small portion of smokers while it will affect the majority of us. Actually, I imagine it would be hard to find a vaporer who doesn't have a non-tobacco flavored juiced.
 
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