What are your views of the impending flavor ban?

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kristin

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I'm not 100% sure (as in I can't quote it off hand), but this is actually a racial argument. A disproportionately high percentage of black people smoke menthol compared to traditional tobacco, and I think the NAACP or some other organization made a case against the ban of menthol.

Actually, it's the opposite. They were upset that menthol WASN'T banned, as a majority of african american smokers buy menthol: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/business/01menthol.html?_r=1

Sorry, that last part was for if the flavor ban extends to a total e-cig ban.

I agree though. Banning flavored cigarettes affected such a small portion of smokers while it will affect the majority of us. Actually, I imagine it would be hard to find a vaporer who doesn't have a non-tobacco flavored juiced.

Not the majority. Use of regular/menthol vs. flavors is about 50/50 in this community, with the majority saying they'll continue using e-cig in spite of a flavor ban: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/polls/55057-tobacco-menthol-other-members-please-vote.html

And I suspect that this forum is even more skewed to have a higher incedence of flavor users, as they have done the research here. I would suspect that the huge majority of offline e-cig owners use tobacco or menthol only, as they do not know of the multitude of available flavors. I knew nothing of flavors, until I found this forum.
 

umop apisdn

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I did used to love Camel's chocolate mint cigs tho :p

Oh man, back when I was a kid Mandarin Mint... Wait, I didn't admit I smoked them as a kid did I? They were a nice treat once in a while, but only after I was smoking before that.

It's an absolutely ridiculous idea, that flavored tobacco entices children to smoke. There are absolutely no studies, that I am aware of, that show that this is true. I think the danger was grossly inflated, to give the antis something to get a "victory" over, so they can keep getting their funding and so politicians could look good, because tobacco isn't going away.

Well, smokers became the new "immigrants, blacks, gays" of the new millennium you could say. We're forced to sit at the back of the bus now, wait, I mean riding on the front bumper.

There are a lot more people who drink than people who smoke. Liquor and (supposedly) NRTs aren't shown to cause cancer, emphyseima and heart disease. The liquor of choice for most alcoholics is rarely a fruit flavored liquor. Liquor and NRTs don't carry the social stigma of tobacco, so they aren't ever going to be a target. They don't have ridiculous claims against them, like they can cause a heart attack within 30 minutes if you're exposed to them just once??? Since smokers are such a small percentage of the population and most non-smokers dislike second-hand smoke, it's easy to vilify and hard to get the majority of the population to care if we have flavors or not. Smokers (and now vapers) are an easy target. We are considered no less than drug addicts, regardless of the actual impact of our use has on society as a whole. We may as well be crack ......., as far as these people are concerned. Thdey don't agree that our habit affects no one else. They don't want their kids to start smoking, so they don;t want us to be seen nor heard.

One could argue that alcohol hurts more people and other non drinkers more than smoking does. You don't hear of "smoking and driving", a husband being an abusive smoker, missing work because they smoked a lot the night before, or even smoking too much you overdosed and died. The only reason it seems anti's exist are false claims and the fact it smells. I have an advocating stance for drug use (besides obvious "hard" ones) so I don't mind being called a "drug addict" for vaping. Yes, nicotine's a drug, and yes, one could say I'm addicted. I also feel people should be able to do whatever they choose to their bodies as long as they're non-violent and capable of either functioning while using it or responsible enough to avoid problems with it. The "War on Drugs" painted non-violent drugs users a bad picture, and now anyone who has a vice suffers from the stigma.

This is the political climate we live in. We have no "right to smoke" or "right to vape." We are not a protected class. Our right to pursue happiness ends when it endangers ourselves and other members of society - the same reason street drugs are illegal. People view our habit as infringing on their personal space and endagering their children, by enticing them into starting an unhealthy and potentially deadly habit - smoking. They have been told that e-cigs are a gateway device for tobacco.

Yes, but do we have to live in this current climate? We can change it. And yes, I DO have a right to vape/smoke/drink/die should I want to. The government can take that right away over my dead body. As for the whole "protect the children" argument, the government or anyone else who uses that argument is a terrorist. No, not someone who's going to blow up something, an actual terrorist - someone who tries to inflict fear to satisfy an agenda.

We have to get the numbers to prove them wrong. We have to somehow show them that kids DON'T think e-cigs are cool and they are NOT interested in them. We have to prove to them that the large majority of e-cig users (and the target market) is already smoking and over 30 years old. We have to show them, through approved testing, that these users are actually better off by using e-cigs than using tobacco. We have to show them that using an e-cig is to a smoker what low fat frozen yogurt is to a person trying to avoid fattening ice cream and eat healthier. (Dessert is not a necessity, it's a luxury, a treat. But if you're going to do it, make a healthier choice.) But we can't make those claims until we have undeniable proof. For that, we need a respected, wealthy medical organization to conduct studies and testing. (This won't affect the FDA approval, but it would have a huge impact on public opinion, if the FDA report is shown to have been incomplete and inconclusive.)

I have to say, as a 19 year old, e-cigs appealed to me when I was 18. No, not because I saw it and said "man, I wish I was that cool..." but because I was already a smoker and wanted to preserve my health without giving up nicotine. Yes, these are a way of "diet smoking", I definitely agree with that, but still, if you're going to eat ice cream, at least go for the good stuff. If you eat that much ice cream that shaving off a few calories per serving will help you out, it's time to cut back :p. But yes, we do need testing. I wish I was a doctorate student in chemistry right now so I could use it as a research project for my thesis. But we do need to sway the public opinion - and not just for PV's. Fighting for PV's without trying to fix what's really wrong (the anti-smoking mindset) is just fighting our battle without fighting the war.


The "right to vape" argument will never get us anywhere. However, the "right to live healthier & safer" WILL. But we have to prove what we are saying is TRUE, first.

Had to reply to your post, great points, my responses are in bold. Had italics, but they did nothing =X
 
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soylent

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Not the majority. Use of regular/menthol vs. flavors is about 50/50 in this community, with the majority saying they'll continue using e-cig in spite of a flavor ban: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/polls/55057-tobacco-menthol-other-members-please-vote.html

Thanks, voted. That's "primarily" though, not "only". I would think a large portion of those people would have fell into a "both" category if the question wasn't what do you use most.

And I suspect that this forum is even more skewed to have a higher incedence of flavor users, as they have done the research here. I would suspect that the huge majority of offline e-cig owners use tobacco or menthol only, as they do not know of the multitude of available flavors. I knew nothing of flavors, until I found this forum.
I agree we're skewed, but most websites selling e-cigs, even the gimmick ones, push flavors pretty hard. I haven't seen a kiosk personally, but the commercials push flavors too. I have to imagine the percentage is still up there.

In any case, limiting e-cigs to tobacco or menthol will definitely reduce the interest in many adults (possibly the success rate as well?) and the name will probably never sway from the "electronic cigarette" like people hope.
 

umop apisdn

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Actually, it's the opposite. They were upset that menthol WASN'T banned, as a majority of african american smokers buy menthol: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/business/01menthol.html?_r=1

Interesting. But the nytimes always reports in favor of things like that. But still, it shows the backwards culture the anti's created. Banning something used mostly by a certain group would be viewed as an attack in most cases, not so much a blessing. You'd expect this response for making crack ....... illegal. But even still, there are critics out there that see crack's status compared to coke's as a racial attack.

Not the majority. Use of regular/menthol vs. flavors is about 50/50 in this community, with the majority saying they'll continue using e-cig in spite of a flavor ban: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/polls/55057-tobacco-menthol-other-members-please-vote.html

And I suspect that this forum is even more skewed to have a higher incedence of flavor users, as they have done the research here. I would suspect that the huge majority of offline e-cig owners use tobacco or menthol only, as they do not know of the multitude of available flavors. I knew nothing of flavors, until I found this forum.

Still, I view menthol as a flavor. That being said, the majority of vapers use flavored juice, the vast majority. Even still, non-menthol and non-tobacco flavors are also the highest group, which does say something. I wouldn't even give this forum credit for the large amount of flavors. I found this looking for a review on blu, after I had ordered it, with an array of flavored carts. I'm sure most offline (non-ecf-members) would have found flavors themselves.

But we obviously disagree on this. It just goes to show you how different people can come up with different views on the same data, logically.
 

westcoast2

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Kristin noted:
There are a lot more people who drink than people who smoke. Liquor and (supposedly) NRTs aren't shown to cause cancer, emphyseima and heart disease. The liquor of choice for most alcoholics is rarely a fruit flavored liquor. Liquor and NRTs don't carry the social stigma of tobacco, so they aren't ever going to be a target.

Liquor is causal for a number of cancers including liver and is a class 1 carcingoen. Nearly every part of the body can be affected (and shown to be affected) by drink.

You suggest that they arn't ever going to target it. In the UK we have just had teh Chief Medical Officer say that no child under the age of 15 should be allowed alcohol. Prior to this pregnant women have been targetted due to the possibility of Foetal Alcohol Syndrome. We have had many ads about the dangers of 'Binge Drinking'

The WHO have said the major areas of concern in health are Tobacco, Alcohol and Fast Food. The EU have a health strategy aimed at these including the imposition of extra taxes. In the UK, there have also been calls to ban alcohol advertsing, sponsorship (espcially in sports) and to put warning labels on bottles.

The term 'secondhand alcohol' has also been coined to describe the effects on others of drinking which include violence, drink driving and anti-social behaviour. All this seems deprssingly familier and is based very much on the tobacco blueprint. It portends making alcohol less socially acceptable. The more extreme elements today (moderates tommorow 8-o) have called for restrictions in the number of units a person is allowed to drink a day by law.

This is why (to me) it is important for vapers to avoid buying into this banning agenda both from a comparative and concession point of view.

The flavour issue is just one example. A company capitulates and then control is established. So maybe next week it will be only 24mg juice then 20mg then 0mg! Or perhaps a restriction on the number of carts you can buy etc. The initial reason for compliance is that it is 'for the children'.

The 'for the children' argument is trotted out time and time again to enforce control over adult decisions. Of course it is emotive and people respond to it, yet there comes a time when children become adults and want to make adult choices even it that means Pineapple flavoured juice.

We had all this wiith Alcopops (sweetly flavoured high alcohol percentage drinks). It was argued they were targetted at children. They became a fad for a while to both drink them and complain about them. Some are still on the market, though (until the next time) there is little fuss.

The upshot is that adults should be allowed to make adult choices. The law can make the sale of PVs to minors illegal, enforce the law and you protect the children without taking away adult choice.
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umop apisdn

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The fact that "protect the children" is an ubiquitous argument with our vices shows just how bad parenting standards have become. If you want your children to be safe, speak to them on their level (not condescendingly nor authoritatively) and warn them about the dangers objectively. Most parents would be shocked at how well it works. This is coming from a 19 year old who was previously a pretty violent kid in middle school, currently a university student in electrical engineering with over a 3.4 GPA.

People need to realize this, and have some faith in their kids. If they did, most kids wouldn't resort to smoking. At least I know if I ever found my (future) kid smoking, I'd buy him an electronic cigarette if he really enjoyed the act of smoking and didn't want to stop. But then again, that's me.

There's just a certain level of responsibility that people just can't seem to comprehend these days, yet those are the same people that would rather have the government raise their kids and fellow adults.
 

BigJimW

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There are pros and cons to the flavored ban

PROS

- When you start making your own, you will realize that the favorite flavor that you happily buy for $15-$20 for a 30ml bottle will probably cost you about $8.00 to make.
- You can experiment with different flavors, nic strengths, etc, until you find something YOU like.
- Your batches will always be fresh, and not sitting in a suppliers stockroom for months
- ALL the ingredients to the e-juice are perfectly legal to buy and own (Nicotine included) and not subject to any bans or regulations by the FDA

CONS

- A learning curve to make your own juice
- Not knowing what you are doing could potentially kill you or make you sick
- Having to buy parts to make nothing more than a mini .... lab to mix your juice
- Trial and error will result in a lot of wasted e-juice
- It is more convieniant to buy your favorite flavors online

A flavor ban is not the end of the world. There is no way that the FDA will ban propolyne glycol, vegitable glycerine, lorrans flavorings, pippets, nicotine, syringes, plastic bottles, etc. All the components are freely available to make your own.

It's the HARDWARE that will be the problem. What good is 500ml of your favorite e-juice if you don't have an e-cig to vape it? e-juice is the least of my worries.
 
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john doe

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I'm curious why the flavor ban is just for cigarettes and e-cigs. You can still buy flavored cigars and pipe tobacco. Swisher sweets would go out of business if they banned flavors for all tobacco. Pipe tobacco comes in flavors like maple. the swishers come in about 6 different flavors. If you look at the definition of cigarettes they use for the flavor ban the e-cigs are farther away from that definition than either cigars or pipe tobacco.
 

DMertz99

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I'm curious why the flavor ban is just for cigarettes and e-cigs. You can still buy flavored cigars and pipe tobacco. Swisher sweets would go out of business if they banned flavors for all tobacco. Pipe tobacco comes in flavors like maple. the swishers come in about 6 different flavors. If you look at the definition of cigarettes they use for the flavor ban the e-cigs are farther away from that definition than either cigars or pipe tobacco.

I think you've hit on a valid point. Cigars and pipe tobacco do not deliver nicotine as easily as cigarettes so they are not included. For the same reason, I don't believe a zero nic flavor doubler could be included either. If there is a ban, it would seem to me only flavored liquid containing nicotine will be affected.
 

ECGuy

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Cigars and pipes were not included because they didn't feel children used those products. And some very powerful people smoke cigars and don't want their flavors affected.

I say banning flavors is crazy when all the regulations to keep kids from smoking go unenforced now. In my state it's not illegal for a child to smoke, or to have tobacco. If we are so concerned for children's health how about we make it illegal for them to smoke, rather than ban flavors to make it too "icky". Silly stuff with ulterior motives in my opinion. Ultimately has nothing to do with children's health.

And there is no ban on e-cig flavors and we should fight any such ban. But many disagree with me and want e-cigs classified as tobacco cigarettes, and if they are then we shall have no flavors, fun black and white warning packaging and advertising and no internet sales.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.
 

navyboym

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Any one that proposes the banning of flavors for the sake of the children is a cop out. Its up to the parents in this society to teach their children in accordance with their own values and not a responsibility of government to do it for them.

History has shown in almost all cases, that those same people that advocate on the behalf of the children are really advocating for their own self interest, be it favorable regulation or unfavorable.

The real solution is to show the facts! Make those people that say "its for the babies" show proof of those claims, because I'll be dollars to donut holes that they cannot do so.
 

jlmanno

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I'm glad to see that some members have clarified the Flavor Ban at this time is limited to cigarettes only not cigars etc., there has been a lot read into the new act that it applies to all tobacco products. Will our ecigs be considered a tobacco product? we obviously don't know at this point! Will the FDA follow suit of the Canadians to classify as a drug? There are a lot of unanswered questions at this point until The Judge releases his ruling. There is definitely still some benefit to comment as suggeted to the FDA case pending, we have until Monday the 28th.
 

BigJimW

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Jim,

- Not knowing what you are doing could potentially kill you or make you sick
- Having to buy parts to make nothing more than a mini .... lab to mix your juice

These are points related to cutting high strength juice. They do no apply to the issue of flavorings.

If one is to make their own flavored e-juice if a ban takes place, they will have to learn how to cut their own high strength juice. Nic is the base to the juice.
 

whimzkool

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I guess I am not as upset about banning flavors as I am having to buy them in a store-only setting. No more internet sales.:mad:

Also, they are still looking into the menthol ban:
‘‘(e) MENTHOL CIGARETTES.—
‘‘(1) REFERRAL; CONSIDERATIONS.—Immediately upon the
establishment of the Tobacco Products Scientific Advisory Com-
mittee under section 917(a), the Secretary shall refer to the
Committee for report and recommendation, under section
917(c)(4), the issue of the impact of the use of menthol in
cigarettes on the public health, including such use among chil-
dren, African-Americans, Hispanics, and other racial and ethnic
minorities. In its review, the Tobacco Products Scientific
Advisory Committee shall address the considerations listed in
subsections (a)(3)(B)(i) and (b).
‘‘(2) REPORTANDRECOMMENDATION.—Not later than 1 year
after its establishment, the Tobacco Product Scientific Advisory
Committee shall submit to the Secretary the report and rec-
ommendations required pursuant to paragraph (1).
‘‘(3) RULEOFCONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this subsection
shall be construed to limit the Secretary’s authority to take
action under this section or other sections of this Act applicable
to menthol.
 
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TokenVapor

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If one is to make their own flavored e-juice if a ban takes place, they will have to learn how to cut their own high strength juice. Nic is the base to the juice.

We're discussing a flavor ban. Not an all out e-juice ban.

Adding flavor does not require cutting liquid if unflavored, tobacco and menthol e-juice is still available at the strength you vape at. The cons you listed for a flavor ban related to cutting your own juice are misplaced.

If it's an outright ban against all e-juice, flavored or not. Then your complete list has merit. In that case then yes...
"- Not knowing what you are doing could potentially kill you or make you sick"

No one is going to get sick or die from putting 20 drops of lorann's into 24mg unflavored e-liquid.

That's my point.
 
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