Where are the Manufacturers?

[Janetda]

OK, I'll ask again in it's own thread - Where are the manufacturers? What are they doing to promote the cause? Where are the tests? Where are the PR releases? Frankly, my paranoia regarding the government is starting to spill over to the companies that product our beloved pvs. Is there a reason they are not doing anything to fight these bans? I frigg'n LOVE vaping and I want to give them as much of my money as I can afford, don't they want it?

 

[UptownRiot]

Please research the ECA.

 

[HighTech]

OK, I'll ask again in it's own thread - Where are the manufacturers? What are they doing to promote the cause? Where are the tests? Where are the PR releases? Frankly, my paranoia regarding the government is starting to spill over to the companies that product our beloved pvs. Is there a reason they are not doing anything to fight these bans? I frigg'n LOVE vaping and I want to give them as much of my money as I can afford, don't they want it?

How do you know that some of the manufacturer's aren't stepping up? This is not going to happen overnight. It will take a year or two for the proper tests and studies to be done.

Despite how some of us feel about the FDA, it does care about public health, to a point. The bottom line is if the FDA deems this is a drug and drug delivery device, then it will simply have to go through a New Drug Application process. No way around it.

On the other hand, there are ways around everything ;-)

 

[Janetda]

To the best of my knowledge, The ECA is a group of suppliers, not manufacturers. These bans are not new. Countries all over the world have been banning e-cigs for awhile now and I've yet to see any real defense come forth from the manufacturers. If they are in the process of testing and working with government regulatory agencies, then let us know. If they are not, why not? This isn't somethng we're going to fix by writing letters. Like it or not, we have to play by the rules and that is going to involve those who actually make the products.

 

[UptownRiot]

This would be why I recommend research into the ECA. It is not limited to suppliers, those are perhaps the only members YOU are presently aware of.

 

[Janetda]

I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying. It's not up to the ECA to conduct testing and quality control. It's not up to the ECA to submit applications for the individual products to the appropriate agencies. The ECA can use the media to publicize and lobby. It's up to the individual manufactures to supply the supporting evidence that the ECA can use to lobby for a speedy process and better classification. If what we're really worried about is good public health policy, than I'm afraid we're going to need more than just their say so that everything is being manufactured correctly.

We assume these are well run companies with clean rooms and modern manufacturing facilities. They have hoops they have to jump through for the Chinese government, what's the problem with jumping through a few of ours...and Canada's...and the UK's...and Australia’s. I'm ...... that these companys screwed this up so badly. A little forethought was all it needed. They need to give us some frigg'n tests so we can show exactly what's in them and then maybe the ECA can do their job.

 

[trog100]

the real reason these things will get banned is because the people who we set up to protect our lives see any "new" highly addictive drug delivery system as not being in the "greater"public interest..

i am inclined to agree with them.. i am a nicotine addict i need the bloody things.. but i am fully aware my needs aint quite the same as the "greater good for the majority" factor that drives bodies like the FDA.. or at least the honest part of it..

this isnt about the safety of e liquid.. it isnt safe.. it might be "safer" than the alternatives for some.. but not the majority.. its just a new thing their kids can get hooked on..

our nannies have nicely demonized tobacco... the last thing they want is something new and just as addictive to replace it.. its "addicts" these dudes dont like.. so anything new thats addictive is gonna get attacked and frowned upon..

trog

 

[westcoast2]

the real reason these things will get banned is because the people who we set up to protect our lives see any "new" highly addictive drug delivery system as not being in the "greater"public interest..

How is the public interest deifined in this instance? Reduction in health care costs? Other? The rallying cry has been to reduce health care costs and mortality. Bans, NRT and Taxes, we are told, are put in place to protect public health and offset the costs, arn't they?

Is the e-cig a 'highly addictive drug delivery system'? From the anecdotal evidence on this forum it seems people are moving towards the vaping of fuity flavours and PG/VG. Some say they stopped smoking tobacco from day 1 and then reduced nicotine content. Some have said they never expected that to happen. That seems strange for something 'highly addictive', doesn't it?. Is it 'smoking like behaviour' that is addictive? Is the behaviour itself an issue?

i am inclined to agree with them.. i am a nicotine addict i need the bloody things.. but i am fully aware my needs aint quite the same as the "greater good for the majority" factor that drives bodies like the FDA.. or at least the honest part of it..

Do you 'need' cigarettes or e-cigarettes? What is it about them that you believe you are 'addicted' to? (Aside: I remember watching Hot Fuzz, that was all about 'the Greater Good' )

our nannies have nicely demonized tobacco... the last thing they want is something new and just as addictive to replace it..

Are e-cigs 'just as addictive'? Where is the evidence? It is only by broadening the term 'addiction' that regular cigarette smoking gets included.

its "addicts" these dudes dont like.. so anything new thats addictive is gonna get attacked and frowned upon..

Is it 'addicts' or just people who choose to smoke? Many would actualy advocate helping addicts yet are prepared to denormalize and demonize people who smoke. It is this point that seems so strange when it comes to e-cigs.

If you ask a polytician, do you want to reduce the burden on the health care system, what would be the answer? If you could show them something that achieves that, what would they say?

Of couurse 'safe' can only be relative so....
Is the e-cig relatively safe without nicotine in the cart? Compared with what? What is the baseline for this?
Is the e-cig relatively safe with the levels of nicotine currently used? The base would either be the regular cigarette or the nicotrol inhaler. It seems the inhaler is considered safe enough in the short term. The FDA (looking out for safety) now have the power to regulate regular cigarettes, though you can't say they approve them.
Is the vapour relatively safe for bystanders? This is where the majority really come in, the SHS debate has seen to that. Has SHV been shown to be a problem? Did the FDA address this?

Dr Siegel's writings and other studies seem to indicate that the e-cig is relatively safe, don't they?.

 

[Janetda]

Well Westcoast2, that's the problem isn't it? There aren't really any studies done that have been published in reputable publications. The folks that make these things have to give us some ammunition to work with.

We have big enough hurdles to jump over with the whole "for the kids" and "oral fixation" issues. Can someone please just publish an unbiased study that shows that what they SAY are in these things are REALLY in these things? That doesn't seem to be a lot to ask for.

Frankly, I find it amazing that with the wealth of intelligence on this Board, that we're all perfectly happy vaping liquid that comes in little bottles simply labeled "Choco" or "Coffee" or even better, "RY4" (what the hell does that mean?) A lot of the bottles don't even say e-liquid or anything else. Is that really acceptable? How are we supose to ask the public to take us seriously?

 

[need_2quit]

Frankly, I find it amazing that with the wealth of intelligence on this Board, that we're all perfectly happy vaping liquid that comes in little bottles simply labeled "Choco" or "Coffee" or even better, "RY4" (what the hell does that mean?) A lot of the bottles don't even say e-liquid or anything else. Is that really acceptable? How are we supose to ask the public to take us seriously?

omg exactly! 'well it's safer than a cigarette, because it has a zillion less chemicals' is not going to fly. To many on here it IS enough, but to an educated public (or non-edu'd) it won't be enough to convince them, nor will it allow you to fly under the radar with your health insurance, etc.

Personally, I'd like to see testing done. I won't take a screen names word for my personal safety lol. And I trust the chinese even less.

not to diss some of the great suppliers on here, but even the labels are ****e after a few weeks. If you put them in the fridge, forget it = mystery juice.

Then we have the militant vapers that live to vape in every store, public building, planes, medical facilities. They are doing more to hurt the cause than 'inform the public'. I was just thinking today how I'd spend hours in the mall and WAIT to have a cig went I left. Why can't vapers wait?

oh yeah, it's our "right". But when we voice our concern and right to safety, we're nazis lol.

 

[TropicalBob]

Trog, you got it exactly right. You really understand. We've got to have that beer together someday.

 

[Webby]

FWIW - The folks at Joye have sent me these "recipes" and I'm pushing them for more documentation. They understand what is going on here so I don't really understand why the rest haven't been more forthcoming.

TB, we have a pretty good relationship with Joyetech - perhaps I'm not asking for the right docs?

Joytech Information

http://secure.weboperations.net/americasbestbuys/productcart/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=7

 

[DC2]

This forum is no different than the world around us.
And we vapers are no different than those that surround us in this world.

In other words, some of you probably wouldn't eat food that was dropped on the ground.
I would take day old pizza out of the trash outside and eat it with relish.
And I'll eat a french fry that has been laying on the ground for hours.

Some of you might wash your hands dozens of times per day.
I'll dig in the garden for awhile and then immediately eat a handful of grapes.

I think some of you guys are nuts.
I'm sure you think I'm nuts too.

I have only been sick twice in the last 15 years.

Unless you count that time I ate mayonaisse in Cabo San Lucas.
It had been sitting on a table in the sun for probably at least five hours.
Yeah, that wasn't very pleasant at all.


Oh, and I've had the runs a few times from trips to Mexico.
But then I eat anything and everything they put in front of me.
So you sort of have to expect some "issues" now and then.

 

[Janetda]

Webby,

Thanks for the info and I guess it's a start. But seriously, is "Dasage %" suppose to be Dosage? Was is "CAS #"? And when they say 4,5 is that suppose to mean 4.5? And my favorite, "Make up deficiency" it that suppose to mean "fill in the blank percentage"?

Come on...really? This is what you want me to tell all my friends and family they should be using? This is what you want me to send to my elected officials and the news media?

 

[gatsby]

International notation uses a decimal comma rather than a decimal point and there are a few toxicity studies done by the manufactures including one by Health New Zealand for Ruyan. Many can be found linked to this very forum including in the health section under the Topic E-liquid Lab/Toxicity Reports (I think some of the updated forms of the report are linked else where):

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ing/2716-e-liquid-lab-toxicology-reports.html

As I will tell my students from time to time "Lack of research on your part does not constitute lack of research in the field"

 

[Webby]

Webby,

Thanks for the info and I guess it's a start. But seriously, is "Dasage %" suppose to be Dosage? Was is "CAS #"? And when they say 4,5 is that suppose to mean 4.5? And my favorite, "Make up deficiency" it that suppose to mean "fill in the blank percentage"?

Come on...really? This is what you want me to tell all my friends and family they should be using? This is what you want me to send to my elected officials and the news media?

You misunderstand - I only sent that link as a courtesy for us to discuss. I'm not a chemist, nor would I dare spellcheck what Joyetech sent me to publically post.

Without asking for the exact KFC micro-specs on their seven herbs and spices, here's what I'd really like to know:

1) are there specific spec sheets we can request from Joyetech that might help further our cause of meeting required disclosure with the Feds?

2) who has to be the "advocate" of that info? the manufacturer?

3) with all the media hype, is this all academic?

 

[Janetda]

OK, I might have been a little unfair about the Joytech report and I did forget about the international reporting convention (comma vs. dot). But I still believe that we need more than what we have been given and the Joytech recipe doesn't cut it.

I am of course aware of the other reports mentioned. The best ones are the Ruyan and Super Smoker. We need more of these. Each manufacturer needs these and IMO they should be available to viewing on every supplier's web site. Further, REAL labeling needs to be standard for all juices and devices. And we need to show that there is ongoing quality control.

I'm not saying that there aren't other hurdles to overcome. But if in our campaigning against a ban, it would be nice if those who actually make the darn things would help us to help them!

 

[jigtg]

It is much more fun seeing the situation escalate. Time is on our side...

 

[Webby]

That's why I'm curious as to what we should ask them for. They seem honestly willing to supply what we need, there is just a language difference and ignorance factor on my end. I don't know exactly what to tell them we need to see.

 

[Janetda]

Well, the FDA needs tons of stuff and I can't even begin to address that. But what I'd like to see are independent lab tests of SEVERAL batches of juice and carts so that we know nothing accidentally was added during their process. I wouldn't mind seeing some pictures of the factories either. I'd also like to see real labels with the ingredients and warnings. Also, some real instructions with the devices, written by a native speaker for each country they are sold in. Oh, and I'd like to be able to actually read them too. Not so small that an ant isn't even able to make them out.

What would other people like to see?