Where can we find the 'purest' flavorings?

[justsomeguy]

I'm not sure how else to phrase it - I think the word 'pure' pretty much sums up what I'm looking for.

I'm curious if anyone knows some of the best places to get the 'purest' or 'simplest' flavoring compounds. I'm interesting in mixing my own e-juice mainly because, unlike cigarettes, I'd like to know exactly what I'm putting into my body.

So far, the flavoring compound seems to be the biggest unknown factor to me. I can get extremely clean PG or VG and nicotine mixtures. So where would I go to get flavoring that has only the essential flavoring ingredients needed? No dyes, no unknowns, etc.

Or... am I just asking a question that is way off base here for some reason?
If so - let me know, I'm a bit new to all of this.
Thanks.

 

[Kurt]

Hey, justsomeguy!

There is a Lorann list that has general ingredients of their flavors:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rs-color-coded-complete-ingredients-list.html

Note that "natural flavor" simply means they figured out what the flavor compound is in the food and synthesized it. It does not have to be actually extracted from the food to be a "natural" flavor. Isoamyl acetate is natural banana flavor, and it is synthetic.

I think since flavor companies must provide completely food-safe flavors, you can trust those flavors in terms of "purity". In general you want to avoid colorings like Red dye or Blue dye. Most contain PG, some water or alcohol too. Capellas flavors have a similar list of ingredients on their website, but good luck getting the actual flavor compounds themselves. I would love a list, but have been unsuccessful in getting more than a handful of flavors, mostly mints and fruits. Wiki has a flavor page with some listed.

Hope this helps! I do think we can trust flavor companies here in the states. The FDA rules are too strict to allow much leeway.

 

[justsomeguy]

Thanks for the info Kurt....
funny, I thought of emailing you first...but then thought, nah, I'm not going to bug him again.


I guess you hit the nail on the head - what I would love to find is a list of the actual flavor compounds themselves - didn't realize it would be a trade secret (so to speak) but I guess that makes sense.

Do you have a preferred Flavorings vendor?
I've heard some say they feel that Lorann's flavors taste a bit more chemical than others... but everyone's tastes are subjective, obviously.

On another note, you'll be glad to know that I've been quoting your sig to all my smoking friends when they ask me what vaping is like (giving you credit, of course).

 

[Kurt]

Thanks for the info Kurt....
funny, I thought of emailing you first...but then thought, nah, I'm not going to bug him again.


I guess you hit the nail on the head - what I would love to find is a list of the actual flavor compounds themselves - didn't realize it would be a trade secret (so to speak) but I guess that makes sense.

Do you have a preferred Flavorings vendor?
I've heard some say they feel that Lorann's flavors taste a bit more chemical than others... but everyone's tastes are subjective, obviously.

On another note, you'll be glad to know that I've been quoting your sig to all my smoking friends when they ask me what vaping is like (giving you credit, of course).

Wow, thanks! Wonder how many kits will get sold based on those words. Maybe I should copyright it!

I've only dealt really with two flavor vendors: Lorann and Capella. There are a few Loranns I like, but yes I have found with the six Capellas I have that they are less chemical and more real tasting. How that translates into actual compounds I don't know. But then there are some Loranns I like better than Capellas. Its all a matter of taste. My current DIYs I'm vaping are

Capella Pralines and Caream
Vanilla Custard
Double Chocolate
Caramel
Toasted Almond (mixed with the dbl choc is amazing)
Lorann Licorice
English Toffee
Pralines and Cream (very different than Capellas)

I tend to find something I like and then vape it for weeks, and generally at pretty low conc, like 10% or less. I find Capellas to be stronger in general than Lorann, but not always. Some I have I can't vape, too much coughing: Lorann Butter (not diacetyl), Capellas Milk Choc Toffee. Not a big fruit fan, but I like a drop of Capella Raspberry in the dbl choc. Most are too sharp for me, but then they are all Lorann.

Haven't tried Perfumer's Apprentice yet, but they have a few I am eyeing. Black Cherry is one. Heard great things about theirs, but I've also heard they are a little weaker.

I do think they are all trustable, however. Whether you can actually vape them however depends on you. If a flavor makes you cough a lot, I would cut back or avoid. Most of my Loranns just sit unused, since I am more taken with Capellas right now. Sad fact: you will likely buy more flavors than you actually like. But they are cheap, so have fun!

 

[justsomeguy]

Thanks for the tips. Yes, I'm fully prepared to have more flavors than I can use... having just started vaping I already feel like I have more liquids than I'm going to vape anytime soon.


Going back to something you said in your first response:

Note that "natural flavor" simply means they figured out what the flavor compound is in the food and synthesized it. It does not have to be actually extracted from the food to be a "natural" flavor. Isoamyl acetate is natural banana flavor, and it is synthetic.

So just out of curiosity - if 'natural flavor' simply means a synthesized compound of what the natural flavor is... what is meant by 'artificial flavors' ?

Does that just mean it includes other synthesized compounds that help approximate the intended flavor, though they may not occur in the actual 'natural' flavor?

(hope that question made sense)

And for the record, I'm not really as paranoid as I may seem - just curious and wanting to learn as much as I can about what is in these juices. I suppose it's because it's a luxury we never had (or didn't want) with analogs.

 

[popsec]

. . . what I would love to find is a list of the actual flavor compounds themselves - didn't realize it would be a trade secret (so to speak) but I guess that makes sense. . .

There are books on flavor chemistry (like Source book of flavors - Google Books) but it's so much easier to buy flavorings pre-made or get a lab to mix them up (unless you really want flavor chemistry as a time consuming - and expensive - hobby).

 

[Scubabatdan]

I'm not sure how else to phrase it - I think the word 'pure' pretty much sums up what I'm looking for.

I'm curious if anyone knows some of the best places to get the 'purest' or 'simplest' flavoring compounds. I'm interesting in mixing my own e-juice mainly because, unlike cigarettes, I'd like to know exactly what I'm putting into my body.

So far, the flavoring compound seems to be the biggest unknown factor to me. I can get extremely clean PG or VG and nicotine mixtures. So where would I go to get flavoring that has only the essential flavoring ingredients needed? No dyes, no unknowns, etc.

Or... am I just asking a question that is way off base here for some reason?
If so - let me know, I'm a bit new to all of this.
Thanks.

The perfumers apprentice has just about any note you would need, I have been testing some out for Linda, I highly recommend Guaiacol it adds a very smokey note to tobacco flavorings. Phenyl Ethyl has a very florial note to it. Trimethyl has a woody note, and Phenylacetic has a spicy earthen note to it. I would recommend checking it out here:
Aroma chemicals
Hope this is what you are looking for,
Dan

 

[Kurt]

Thanks for the tips. Yes, I'm fully prepared to have more flavors than I can use... having just started vaping I already feel like I have more liquids than I'm going to vape anytime soon.


Going back to something you said in your first response:



So just out of curiosity - if 'natural flavor' simply means a synthesized compound of what the natural flavor is... what is meant by 'artificial flavors' ?

Does that just mean it includes other synthesized compounds that help approximate the intended flavor, though they may not occur in the actual 'natural' flavor?

(hope that question made sense)

And for the record, I'm not really as paranoid as I may seem - just curious and wanting to learn as much as I can about what is in these juices. I suppose it's because it's a luxury we never had (or didn't want) with analogs.

It can mean that, I believe, if it is called "natural flavor", but "natural extract" or "natural essence" is what you get from an extraction method, and can be a mix of compounds. I don't think you are paranoid at all. I think understanding exactly what might be in a liquid that we vaporize and inhale is important information. But with respect to flavors, it really is a kind of rabbit hole.

Thanks for the link to the flavor book, popsec! Expensive is right. That book sells for $500 used on Amazon.

Dan, thanks for pointing out those pages in PA! That is pretty much what I have been looking for! Looks like PA gets at least some of their compounds from here:

Vigon International, Inc. Web Store Order

So it seems that with PA we could in principle create and tweak our own flavors. Expensive, time consuming, and with a high probability error, but possible. I personally am with popsec, though...much less time consuming to let the experts make a flavor themselves, with all their lab ware and expensive compounds, than to try it myself just yet. Really interesting information though. Definitely worth looking at in detail. I had no idea that aldehydes were as common as they are, especially in fruit flavors which I thought were only esters. I'm definitely learning new chemistry here.

 

[justsomeguy]

Great info from everyone.
Thanks so much - fascinating stuff on the perfumers apprentice site, Dan.

I feel like I've learned so much new information in such a short time here - and yeah, I think kurt's right - the most important thing I'm learning is that it's probably best to just let the experts make a flavor themselves. That and I'm not sure what I would do with 1kg of Vanillin.


So I went through Lorann's site and Capella's site (as well as the link Kurt posted earlier in this thread of the color coded ingredient list) and made a list of all the flavor's that listed only flavoring and water on their ingredient list.

After doing quite a bit of reading on the site, I've decided I don't want any alcohol or additional ingredients in my liquids if I can help it (I realize a lot of people like alcohol in their juices.... to each their own). I also don't want any additional dyes or colorings as long as I can get other flavors that don't have them.

So - in case anyone else is interested (and for my own easy reference) here is the list of flavors I was able to narrow it down to so far:


Note: These flavorings are all PG based

LORANNS

Apple
Artificial Flavor.

Black Walnut
Artificial Flavor.

Brandy
Artificial Flavor.

Butter
Artificial Flavor.

Caramel
Water, Artificial Flavor.

Champagne
Artificial Flavor.

Chocolate Hazelnut
Natural and Artificial Flavors.

Cinnamon Roll
Artificial Flavor.

Coconut
Artificial Flavor.

Cotton Candy
Artificial Flavor.

Cranberry
Artificial Flavor.

English Toffee
Artificial Flavor, Water.

Guava
Artificial Flavor, Water.

Honey
Artificial Flavor.

Horchata
Natural and Artificial Flavors.

Marshmallow
Artificial Flavor, Water.

Mint Chocolate Chip
Artificial Flavor.

Pecan
Artificial Flavor

Pomegranate
Natural and Artificial Flavors.

Praline
Artificial Flavor.

Pralines And Cream
Natural and Artificial Flavors, Water.

Strawberry Kiwi
Artificial Flavor.

Vanilla Butternut
Artificial Flavor, Water​

CAPELLAS

Cappuccino
Natural Flavors, Purified Water

Juicy Gum
Natural Flavors, Purified Water

Amaretto
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Blueberry
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Caramel
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Chocolate Raspberry
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Coconut
Natural & Artificial Flavors

Cola
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Cool Mint
Natural & Artificial Flavors

Double Chocolate
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Egg Nog
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

French Toast
Natural Flavors, Purified Water

French Vanilla
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Hazelnut
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Hot Cinnamon Candy
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

New York Cheesecake
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Orange Creamsicle
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Peaches and Cream
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Raspberry
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Strawberries and Cream
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Toasted Almond
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water

Vanilla Custard
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Purified Water​

 

[debook]

Great info...

I've got some FlavourArt flavorings on the way, anyone know about the purity of their flavorings as well? PG based very concentrated flavors from what I have read.

 

[justsomeguy]

Well, I was going to go through Flavourart's site and make a list of those flavors with the simplest ingredients as well - but apparently all their water soluble flavors are already that way.

From their site:

Water soluble flavors are based on pharmaceutical grade propylene glycol and water.

Our flavors DOES NOT contain sugars, protein, genetic modified ingredients, animal ingredients of any kind, preservatives, sweeteners and colors. They are all gluten and peanut free. Great for diabetics, vegetarian and vegans.

...they are all ogm free, allergen free and alcohol free.

Typos and all... that sounds good to me.

 

[buttercrunch]

I wonder about what's in the flavorings and colorings also, probably some have chemicals we would rather avoid, exitotoxins,glutamates, etc. but I try not to stress too much about it. Sometimes I vape straight VG. I may try to tincture some berry flavors this summer just for fun.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

If you want to avoid colorings, Faeries Finest offers some very good flavors in "clear" versions (quite a few of their flavorings not marked as "clear" are also colorless, such as apple, blueberry, and peach). I find their fruits very good, if a bit mild (need to add a higher % in DIY, that is). The natural chocolate flavoring is darkly colored, but I like it (and haven't had any atomizer issues). They clearly state on the website which ones contain natural vs. artificial flavors, alcohol, and such. Scottes wrote up a Faeries Finest Flavor List a while back, a good reference for which ones are vape-safe.

(The distinction between 'natural' and 'artificial' flavor compounds can be tricky, as Kurt alludes to. I found an interesting Scientific American article on the subject.)

 

[sjohnson]

Natural = extracts, tinctures, absolutes and concretes from actual plants, berries, etc.

Artificial = pure chemical compounds derived from chemical analysis that are the exact compounds found in natural mixtures. Artificial flavors may be one compound or many. Just like natural compounds.

If you have a need for "natural" - it's real for you and more power to you. Use only "natural" flavors. But a chemical compound is a chemical compound is a chemical compound - whether made by nature or by a chemist.

I don't personally see the difference.

 

[NanoVapor]

^

The difference is actually in favor of "artificial flavors" which are more accurately called "nature-identical flavors". The difference is that natural flavors, because they are EXTRACTED, often have a greater risk of impurities of ingredients in the plant it was extracted from that are not contributors to its aromatic/fragrant characteristics.

With nature-identical flavors they are synthetically made and held to a much higher quality control standard.


Very few companies offer flavorings that are just 1 single aromatic molecule. Very few plants flavors are made up by just 1 molecular structure contributing to its flavor.

I know that FlavourArt's flavorings usually contain 20-30 different fragrant molecules to create just one flavor. From what I understand this is often the norm for flavors, especially ones that taste very accurate to the food. More "artifically" tasting flavors may use a much more limited selection of the plants flavor molecules thereby not "completing" the flavor spectrum of that plant, and thereby giving whats perceived as a fake or artificial taste.

 

[Cupids_Healing_Hearts]

I was checking out flavourart's website and came across this page about Diacetyl... Apparently there is some concern over health issues with people that have a high exposure rate to breathing this chemical...

What about potential health effects of inhaling diacetyl vapors?

Concerns about inhalation of diacetyl vapors stem from worker safety issues, not from the general public consuming or smelling foods flavored with diacetyl in the home. Interest in the possible inhalation effects of diacetyl first arose when workers in a microwave popcorn production facility developed breathing problems in the late 1990’s. Since that time, experience with people working in factories around diacetyl and research in animals has suggested that frequent and repeated breathing of high concentrations of diacetyl in the air may be associated with an extremely rare lung condition known as bronchiolitis obliterans. This condition can cause scarring of the small airways in the lung, which can result in less air exchange in the airways and over time, airway blockage. As with most medical issues, an individual’s medical history and ongoing medical conditions may influence their response to diacetyl, so some individuals may be more sensitive than others to the inhalation effects of diacetyl.



In April 2007, the Occupational and Safety Health Administration (OSHA) launched a program to address hazards and control measures associated with factories where butter-flavored microwave popcorn is produced. The FDA continues to seek additional information to help further clarify any health effects from diacetyl.


They are good enough to leave us a list of the flavours they carry that contain diacetyl and the concentrations of each...

As example, butter flavor dosed at 0,3% in E juice. The amount of diacetyl in 100 ml of E.juice is 0,0045 grams. Assuming that a typical E cigarette contains an average of 2 ml of E juice, the amount of diacetyl assumed in a smoking session is...... 0,00009 grams or 0,09 ppm (part per million).

Always consider the dosage in use !

Apple pie 0,4
Beer 0,001
Butter 1,5
Buterscotch 0,012
Beef boiled 0,00005
Bell pepper 0,01
Chestnut 0,03
Champagne 0,0016
Coconut 0,5
Croissant 0,074
Cheese Erdammer 0,09
Cheese Emmenthal 0,018
Cheese Parmigiano 0,29
Coffee 0,27
Caramel and butterscotch 0,07
Corn 0,2
Cream 0,078
Egg yolk 0,015
Fried 0,01
Golden syrup 0,09
Hazelnut 0,01
Maple 0,012
Milk condensed 0,5
Malt 0,01
Melon 0,01
Nut wild mix 0,9
Olive 0,01
Potato 0,00012
Pistacchio 0,0015
Rum 0,022
Soy sauce 0,35
Salmon 0,02
Truffle black 0,1
Tiramisu 0,05
Vanlla Madagascar 0,04
Vanilla Tahiti 0,08
Yogurt 1,6

Disclaimer: We produce and sell FOOD FLAVORS which comply with Italian and EU legislation and EFSA reccomendation. They are safe for FOOD use as they are intended to enter the body by the digestive system, not by lungs. Digestion involves acid breakdown, enzyme attack, and kidney and liver processing. Vapor by the lungs goes directly in the blood stream. Even though due to absence of combustion, vaping can be compared to odor smelling in open air, consumption of food flavors by vaping has not been specifically tested for safety. Flavourart srl can not be held responsible for any claim or damage arising by the use of food flavor by the means of electronic devices as E-vapers, E cigarettes and similar.


Good to know when considering this companies flavourings... At least they are providing this information

Amy

 

[justsomeguy]

Woah - that's interesting, Amy.....
I didn't think any of these companies were using diacetyl - but I guess that shows me I shouldn't assume anything.

Thanks.