Which 18350's for stacking?

[Mutescream]

Before the chastising commenses...

Yes, I'm doing matched pairs that have been matched since they came out of the wrappers... I'm metering my batteries to ensure they don't have significant deviations between mated batteries, and am now rotating them.

With that out of the way, now I can get to my question.

When these batteries reach the end of their usefulness, which batteries should I replace them with? I'm looking for two primary factors here; excellent QA, so they will remain matched for an extended period of time. The next is mah rating. Being able to handle the current draw should go without saying ( I typically vape from 8-10w, but for some juices go to 14-15w), but had to say (I wouldn't want anyone to think I completely disregarded it).

I'm looking for two types of answers; budget taken into consideration and price be damned. If it is a price be damned recommendation, please indicate the merits over budget options.

Thanks in advance to those that provide helpful info.

 

[chainvapor]

I would go with efest for a good quality battery. Seems they are doing a pretty good job lately and at a really good price.

But may I ask why you are stacking?? You can get over 30 amps out of an 18650 battery now. I am vaping 0.45ohms with a Sony VTC4 30 amp battery and having no problems - that equals about 30 watts, (see attached pic)

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If you are using a APV or Variable Voltage/Variable Wattage device, they will typically go up to 15 watts without stacking. So I just do not understand. Not saying you can't stack them (although it has proven to be a little more dangerous), just not understanding why.

CV

 

[Mutescream]

It's for a vamo v3. Is the the amp draw limited by the device or the battery? It only seemed like it was having performance issues over 9w, and was ok below that (the attys and cartos I'm using range from 1.2-1.5 ohm). I'm also getting significantly longer times between charges on stacked 350s v. a single 650.

 

[chainvapor]

I can only tell you my experience so I am sorry if this is lacking. Since I started building my own coils in my protanks, I have been vaping at between 4.0 and 4.5 volts on a 1.5ohm microcoil made from 28 gauge kanthal wire using an innokin itaste SVD.



2014 02 09 11 02 15 524 - YouTube

This is just a quick video to show you my vapor production at 4.0 volts. I am getting a day out of my batteries and they are the cheap ones. With better ones you may do better.

CV

P.S. If the embedded video does not work, just click on the link.

Also, the batteries I am using in my SVD are just standard 18650 IMR batteries. Nothing special about them. But when I vape at sub-ohm levels, I stick with 30 amp batteries to be safe.

 

[Mutescream]

I get about 12 hours out of the blue no name 2600mah 650, and 2 days out of grey no name 900mah 350's. I also notice (as in perceived increase in impact to juice) the stepping more when I get into the higher voltages/wattages.

For example, right now I'm finding out what halo torque56 seems to like. Which seems to be 5.4v on a 1.5 ohm dual coil.

 

[Baditude]

I see major issues on a few levels here. I won't even go into how unwise it is to be stacking batteries. You get to skip that lecture.

1 - As you are using a regulated device which uses PWM (pulse width modulation) to create higher voltage, you should be using high-drain batteries, not the protected ICR that I suspect you are using. There's no way to tell for certain as you are using generic no-name batteries. You have no clue what the specs are on those batteries.

Technical - Why High Drain Batteries

Battery Basics for Mods: IMR or Protected ICR?

Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries

2 - I personally would NOT USE ANY GENERIC BATTERY in a mod. They are an unknown battery of unknown quality by an unknown manufacturer. The vast majority of generic batteries are either the rejects of other battery manufacturers or used batteries harvested from old laptop computers and re-wrapped/sold as new batteries. Add to this lovely equation that you are stacking these batteries of questionable quality and you have an accident waiting to happen. It's good to hear that you are measuring your voltages coming out of the mod and off of the charger.

3 - Getting only 6 hours from an 18650 2600mAh battery is only a testament to it being a poor quality battery, and a poor comparison and excuse to be stacking 18350 batteries. Theoretically, stacking will double voltage but will not appreciably double battery capacity (battery time).

4 - My advice; stop skimping out with cheap batteries and get some high-quality, name-brand, high-drain, safe-chemistry batteries. Batteries are the most important piece of vape gear you own, and also the most dangerous. Use the best that you can afford. Thinking that you are saving money with cheap batteries just means you'll be spending the money later on hospital bills.

 

[Mutescream]

After reading up on my device, apparently there is current limiting on the vamo... With it being 2.5a in single and 4a in stacked (it would seem the controller has some noticable overhead, or they were a bit optimistic rating it as a 5a device).

I also ran into someone claiming that he was getting 60% more run time on a vamo comparing 650 to stacked 350, both types being AW batteries (which seem to be looked upon as being good batteries around here).

Since it would appear to be a device limitation I am stuck with until I can afford to upgrade... I'm looking for advice on which batteries will give me decent mah, mitigate as much risk as possible and hopefully not be massively expensive.

 

[Baditude]

NCR18650PF 2900mAh or NCR18650PD 2900mAh, both made by Panasonic and Orbtronic, are IMHO the best "general purpose" high drain batteries on the market for regulated mods.

 

[Mutescream]

If my device is regulating voltage/current based on single/double (presumably by measured voltage output from the battery), how is a high drain battery going to resolve the performance issue of low output at higher wattages? Running with low current is esp apparent with running dual coil.

 

[Baditude]

If I'm understanding your question correctly, the answer is in the the first link provided in my first post. READ THE LINKS, it's why I gave them to you.

Regulated mods use buck boost technology and pulse width modulation to create higher voltage from a 3.7 volt battery. A protected 18650 ICR battery doesn't have enough amps (3 - 4 amps typically) for this, unlike a high drain 18650 battery which will have at least 10 amps.

 

[KenD]

I read/saw somewhere (could've been P. Busardo's youtube channel) that two 18350s in the Vamo provide slightly more even voltage. Stacked batteries shouldn't provide any more power though. As Baditude writes (and he knows his stuff!), protected ICRs can't handle the amp load they're subjected to in high voltage/wattage vaping. Don't know if that's causing your power issues or not, but it's a possibility.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[Mutescream]

I think it's pretty safe to say that the current loss is from stepping up in voltage, and that the power increase is from not lacking in current due to stepping down in voltage. Single batteries range from 3.3-4.2v depending on where they are in the charge, and stacked ranges from 6.6-8.4v depending on where they are in the charge. Even with rippled DC, if you don't have the power to supply it, you are going to have a less stable waveform (and the slower the signal, such as in the case of 33hz, the more power is required to make it a nice clean wave and spend more time at the apex of the arc of the waveform).

 

[Baditude]

Also keep in mind the batteries you were using were generic batteries of questionable quality, and likely ICR chemistry batteries which are lacking in the amperage that a high drain IMR battery would have.

 

[Mutescream]

Would that have been as relevant with a regulated power supply? The other aspect that was never addressed, is that with rippled dc (from pwm) it makes inductance from the coils relevant, as it increases the resistance of the circuit.

 

[Baditude]

Would that have been as relevant with a regulated power supply? The other aspect that was never addressed, is that with rippled dc (from pwm) it makes inductance from the coils relevant, as it increases the resistance of the circuit.

You might find some helpful technical information about high drain batteries and regulated mods in this statement from the tech engineers at Provape:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/524874-question-tech-engineers-provape.html

 

[Mutescream]

interesting info, and after further research I find that the AW battery will not be suitable for my application. With a flat top being requisite, would efest be the best solution?

 

[Baditude]

interesting info, and after further research I find that the AW battery will not be suitable for my application. With a flat top being requisite, would efest be the best solution?

If you ask me ... no. My personal experience with Efest 18350 IMR and Efest 14500 IMR batteries have shown them to be inferior to AW 18350 IMR's.

Did you read the last part of the above link from the Provape engineers? They recommend ONLY the AW IMR batteries; the other batteries that they tested did not stack up to their standards. They have a reason for saying that and they explained why.

 

[chainvapor]

Efest, EH, Sony, are all good IMR batteries. No need for AW IMHO. I have owned AW batteries and they are good also, but I do not see the need for them. I have Efest and Sony IMR 30Amp batteries I am using in my sub-ohm applications and my Innokin SVD and my Vamo (VV/VW) with no problems.

CV

 

[Baditude]

Efest, EH, Sony, are all good IMR batteries. No need for AW IMHO. I have owned AW batteries and they are good also, but I do not see the need for them. I have Efest and Sony IMR 30Amp batteries I am using in my sub-ohm applications and my Innokin SVD and my Vamo (VV/VW) with no problems.

If you have read through the thread, the OP is only interested in stacking 18350 batteries in his Vamo. Sony does not make an 18350 battery, so your recommendation is moot for those. I've not found many vendors who sell the EH brand. Efests are plentiful, but so are AW.

 

[KenD]

An experience, based on my exercise in stupidity... For a while I ran an old laptop sourced 18650 (it's difficult to quickly find li-ion batteries here in Sweden, and it was that or cigarettes. I was being as careful as I could). The batteries did not give me nearly the same performance as the proper high(er) drain batteries that I used before and after. Guessing that was due to my mod (an SVD, great mod) compensating for those ICRs not being able to provide enough amps. With that in mind, I think proper safer chemistry 18650s would negate the need to stack 18350s. That being said, I'm really happy using Efest 18350s in my Hammer mod (clone). They'll last me about 7 hours (half of that if I'm using a kick...). As safe as AWs, and up here I can get about three of them at the price an AW (I'm fine with carrying more batteries, gives me some exercise, as long as I'd carry enough batteries, but I don't think I can find a big enough backpack... Sorry, too many beers tonight...)

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