"Who has the best and finest DIY Ingredients"

[chargingcharlie]

You're missing the point. This is a typical DIY'er mistake. Putting "USP" on a label doesn't automatically mean someone is falsely representing the certification of a drug. I'm pretty sure you can sell "Kosher USP Diet Coke" or "Kosher USP Glycerin" all day long without legally misrepresenting anything. There is a difference between what ordinary folks would take to be misrepresentation and legal misrepresentation. That you find something to be a misrepresentation doesn't mean that it's a legal misrepresentation. This is how advertisers dupe you.



I look forward to you trying to source what you're "pretty sure" of. That's not going to happen. We don't have laws here in the US that say that "being vaguely misleading" is a crime. Quite the contrary, in fact. All industries want to be able to be as misleading as they can. And they have plenty of leeway to dupe people who don't understand how laws work.

If that's the case, then what would make you trust any distributor any more than essential depot? I personally just think it's slimy to accuse a distributor of selling mislabeled, or lesser quality product, based on nothing but the appearance of their label. So, I ask you this question again...if you are a chemist, then why don't you buy a small bottle and verify your suspicions? Getting all up in arms about something, without any facts to back up your suspicions, it pretty pointless.


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[Mr.Mann]

This is somewhat correct and, I think, somewhat incorrect.

Yes, you can label verified pharmaceutical grade (i.e, USP) drugs as "food grade" or "hogfeed grade" if you want. That would, of course, be absurd. Nobody would ever do it.

I am not sure whether it is always illegal to stick the letters "USP" on a label. I doubt that it is. Sticking the letters "USP" on a label does not mean the drug is actually verified as USP-certified pharma grade. For example, there is no USP designation for "Vegetable Glycerin". Anything sold as "Vegetable Glycerin, USP" is not, in fact, USP-certified pharmaceutical grade. It could not possibly be, and the seller is almost surely duping you. Similarly with "Kosher Glycerin, USP". That doesn't exist. On the other hand, I suspect it would be illegal to label your drug "Glycerin, USP" if your Glycerin is not, in fact, certified as such. One difference here is that in the former case you aren't technically mispresenting anything, since "Vegetable Glycerin" is not a legitimate drug name as far as USP is concerned. Only "Glycerin" is. Similarly, I can probably smack the set of letters "USP" on a Coca-Cola label without violating any law.

One of the problems so many DIY'ers are running into here is that they don't understand the law. They mistakenly assume that if the letters "USP" appear on a label, then the stuff must be legit USP-certified pharma grade stuff. But that's not how the laws work.

I got the CVS stuff and it is true what others have said about it -- it no longer says Glycerin USP. It just says Pure Glycerin. Whatever though, I am using it and it is what I need until I get a larger supply. Interestingly, the CVS glycerin does have the 5 year Exp. date on it vs. my ED stuff that has a use by date of a 2 years.

 

[chargingcharlie]

I just sent an email to essential depot asking for clarification of their PG. I'll let you all know if/when I get a response.


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[Jimi D.]

I got the CVS stuff and it is true what others have said about it -- it no longer says Glycerin USP. It just says Pure Glycerin. Whatever though, I am using it and it is what I need until I get a larger supply. Interestingly, the CVS glycerin does have the 5 year Exp. date on it vs. my ED stuff that has a use by date of a 2 years.

VG's shelf life is normally 2 years. That 5 year stuff may contain preservatives. Just a thought.

 

[Heathbar]

If that's the case, then what would make you trust any distributor any more than essential depot? I personally just think it's slimy to accuse a distributor of selling mislabeled, or lesser quality product, based on nothing but the appearance of their label.

I didn't accuse them of selling a mislabeled product. The label says "food grade" right there on it. That's probably what it is, you know, given that's what they say it is and they don't label it as pharmaceutical grade. I did accuse people who don't know the law with assuming that seeing USP somewhere on a label means that the stuff is pharmaceutical grade. See the difference?

 

[Heathbar]

Here's a bottle of glycerin that's properly labeled:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/10417582?

 

[Mr.Mann]

Here's a bottle of glycerin that's properly labeled:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/10417582?

Maybe my wife will let me go to Walmart for this. LOL.

 

[wonkeypickle]

I bought my DIY stuff at Kidnypuncher. They has 20% of their flavors when I bought them.

yup yup for kp!


if you're local to the phoenix arizona area, they just opened a new shop in tempe with a decent selection of diy flavors from tfa cap and others...

:]!

 

[chargingcharlie]

I didn't accuse them of selling a mislabeled product. The label says "food grade" right there on it. That's probably what it is, you know, given that's what they say it is and they don't label it as pharmaceutical grade. I did accuse people who don't know the law with assuming that seeing USP somewhere on a label means that the stuff is pharmaceutical grade. See the difference?

Here's the reply I got fromt he email I sent ED where I asked about the USP grading of their product:

Good afternoon,

Essential Depot`s propylene glycol is United States Pharmacopeia grade as well as food grade (Kosher) with a C3H8O2 (Propylene Glycol) purity of 99.94%.

Exceeding the minimum purity of 99.50%. We only sell the purest, finest, safest, product to our customers.



The standard for U.S.P. grading exceed the standards for food grade therefore if you are USP grade you can be food grade but if you are food grade you are not necessarily U.S.P. .



If you have any further questions feel free to contact me.

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[Mr.Mann]

Here's the reply I got fromt he email I sent ED where I asked about the USP grading of their product:






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Did they happen to tell you if they operate in a clean room, or if the bottles are prepackaged elsewhere? I'd be interested to find out under what conditions the "VG" is in while they rebottle it. Not that it'll make a world of difference to me, but just curious if what they mean is that they get the purest product and sell that, or if they truly mean they sell the purest product -- there is a difference, even if minor.

p.s. Don't get it twisted though, ED has been great for me.

 

[chargingcharlie]

Did they happen to tell you if they operate in a clean room, or if the bottles are prepackaged elsewhere? I'd be interested to find out under what conditions the "VG" is in while they rebottle it. Not that it'll make a world of difference to me, but just curious if what they mean is that they get the purest product and sell that, or if they truly mean they sell the purest product -- there is a difference, even if minor.

p.s. Don't get it twisted though, ED has been great for me.

Well, he did say "We only sell the purest, finest, safest, product to our customers." Not "We only procure the purest, finest, safest, product... and then rebottle it and then sell it to our customers."


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[Hoosier]

The USP standard covers packaging and handling. Open a USP product outside the proscribed environment and it is no longer USP and it would be a violation to have the compound designation followed with USP. The label can contain other stuff like the bolded print on the Humco VG at WalMart has "External Use Only" on the back, which we have seen a number of new mixers over the years get concerned over that bit of the label...


I have seen "Rebottled from USP product" on labels which is an acceptable way to state you opened the USP product outside the proper environment for rebottling.

 

[chargingcharlie]

To be honest, I don't know why anyone would assume they rebottle it. Based on everything I've seen on EDs website, they look like a distribution warehouse more than anything. While some companies may buy 55gal drums of product, bottle it in smaller containers, and resell it; there no reason to asse that ED doesn't buy theirs in bulk, prepackaged in cases of 1 gal jugs.


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[Mr.Mann]

Well, he did say "We only sell the purest, finest, safest, product to our customers." Not "We only procure the purest, finest, safest, product... and then rebottle it and then sell it to our customers."


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I was wondering, simply, if the conversation went beyond the common refrain by people selling VG, maybe it didn't.

The USP standard covers packaging and handling. Open a USP product outside the proscribed environment and it is no longer USP and it would be a violation to have the compound designation followed with USP. The label can contain other stuff like the bolded print on the Humco VG at WalMart has "External Use Only" on the back, which we have seen a number of new mixers over the years get concerned over that bit of the label...


I have seen "Rebottled from USP product" on labels which is an acceptable way to state you opened the USP product outside the proper environment for rebottling.

Okay, that's makes sense as you wrote it, but Hooiser, I am sure you've read this, but can you tell me why this is not the case here?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-
e-liquid/52669-pg-vg-labeling-purity-please-read.html#post787766

 

[chargingcharlie]

Which part are you referring to?


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[Mr.Mann]

Which part are you referring to?


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Mainly all the info on labeling (which is not in line with this the VG I have) and the part about how "Kosher" in regards to glycerin means nothing. And then the "how these manufacturers [are able] to label and market their glycerin products so seemingly deceptively?" Basically the whole post. I mean, as I read that and look at my bottle of "Vegetable Glycerin - USP - Kosher - Food Grade", I am at a lost.

I don't purport to know all of this stuff (I know very little), I am trying to learn -- nor have I had any in-depth conversations with ED or even any topographical exchanges. But, if it looks like I am calling ED suspicious then that's unfortunate as I do buy from them and have no ax to grind -- they clearly are selling their product just like everyone else we typically buy from, so this is not really about ED at all. Hell, I'd be more than happy to find out that what they sell is 100% the same as what you can buy in a pharmacy labeled USP, Glycerin -- but even if it ain't that's not to say I will stop buying from them.

 

[chargingcharlie]

Based on the explanation in the email, I would think that the ED product is USP grade and also labeled as "food grade" and "kosher" to make it more appealing to a larger customer base. He mentioned that USP grade can also be labeled as Food Grade (but not the other way around), and "Kosher" just means that the product conforms to the regulations of kashrut. It is possible for something to be USP certified while also being considered food grade and kosher.


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[Hoosier]

I was wondering, simply, if the conversation went beyond the common refrain by people selling VG, maybe it didn't.



Okay, that's makes sense as you wrote it, but Hooiser, I am sure you've read this, but can you tell me why this is not the case here?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-
e-liquid/52669-pg-vg-labeling-purity-please-read.html#post787766

I have never been able to explain that post. It confuses many, but it is written, posted, and sticky'ed by someone high on the ECF ladder and is well beyond my ability to refute, disagree with and remain a member, or otherwise state it is incorrect. It is what it is.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I have never been able to explain that post. It confuses many, but it is written, posted, and sticky'ed by someone high on the ECF ladder and is well beyond my ability to refute, disagree with and remain a member, or otherwise state it is incorrect. It is what it is.

Ahhhh.....

 

[Heathbar]

Some information:

The designation "USP" or "NF" on the label may not and does not constitute an endorsement by USP and does not represent assurance by USP that the article is known to comply with the relevant standards. USP may seek legal redress if an article purports to be or is represented as an official article in one of USP's compendia and such claim is determined by USP not to be made in good faith.

When the letters "USP," "NF," or "USP-NF" are used on the label of an article to indicate compliance with compendial standards, the letters shall appear in conjunction with the official title of the article. The letters are not to be enclosed in any symbol such as a circle, square, etc., and shall appear in capital letters.

Hmm. One wonders. Enclosed in a circle or not? http://www.cvs.com/bizcontent/merchandising/productimages/large/5042814212.jpg

When a drug product, drug substance, or excipient fails to comply with the identity prescribed in USP or NF or contains an added substance that interferes with the prescribed tests and procedures, the article shall be designated by a name that is clearly distinguishing and differentiating from any name recognized in USP or NF.

Kosher Glycerin isn't recognized in the USP. That name is, arguably, "clearly distinguishing and differentiating from any name recognized in USP."