Why are clinical trials avoiding the real questions?

[zoiDman]

Good points zoiDman. Even if you had virgin vapers to test on though, I don't think the particular kind of trialing you're alluding to would produce any definate scientific results, since there are infinate variables on testing individual in an uncontrolled environment that can't be controlled. I think you would have to be testing in a controlled lab environment on a cellular level. In this way you could use 'virgin' culture and expose it to variable environments and compare data etc. This is not ideal either, since you can't test on the human as a whole, and you can't take into account what may happen on a time scale, with the body's ability to heal itself and cope with certain exposures as a whole organism. But this remains a problem for medical research in general and we can only work with what we have. I don't really see how scientifically testing the effects of vaping would be more difficult than testing the effects of any other environmental exposure on/in the body.

I think your starting to understand just how Difficult obtaining Meaningful results are from a clinical trial. Any Clinical Trial. No matter who the Funder is or perhaps for a Desired Result.

The Best way is to just "Fudge" the data until you get the Results You Want.

It's a Time Honored Technique.

 

[zoiDman]

The point that I'm making is Government likes to pick on things like the e-cig as an easy target, to appear like they are doing something for the people .. there will not be much resistance, we don't have an Army of lobbyists in DC with suitcases full of money ..

Yet, follow me here .. the damage and cost to society by pot smokers and prostitutes is much higher than a regulated legal business .. costs such as prisons .. etc .. so, logically, these activities should be legal and regulated and taxed .. yet they are not ..

I hear you...

Logic and or "Right and Wrong" are more concepts we try to teach are Kids in school.

In the Real World though they are Trumped by things like Money, Taxes and the ability to get Re-Elected.

 

[AlchemI]

If there is an improvement some conclusions can be drawn that vaping is "healthier". There will still be a question of whether they would have improved their health even more if they weren't vaping either.

That's why you test different control groups ie vapers, full quiters, smokers, and virgins, and compare data. I don't know if this kind of trialing would draw any solid conclusions though, since there are so many other factors that can't be controlled. For example how do you ensure the 'purity' of your control groups. ie Some of the vapers might be sneaking a ciggy in every now and then. Or what about people's various other habits/diets/lifestyles that influence their bodies on a daily basis.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Logic and or "Right and Wrong" are more concepts we try to teach are Kids in school.

In the Real World though they are Trumped by things like Money, Taxes and the ability to get Re-Elected.

Sadly, I don't see much of that type teaching going on these days ..

And, it's always, always about the money ..

 

[Uncle Willie]

That's why you test different control groups ie vapers, full quiters, smokers, and virgins, and compare data. I don't know if this kind of trialing would draw any solid conclusions though, since there are so many other factors that can't be controlled. For example how do you ensure the 'purity' of your control groups. ie Some of the vapers might be sneaking a ciggy in every now and then. Or what about people's various other habits/diets/lifestyles that influence their bodies on a daily basis.

Like if they live in a smog ridden Metro area or out in the middle of nowhere ..

 

[zoiDman]

Sadly, I don't see much of that type teaching going on these days ..

And, it's always, always about the money ..

Yeah... It is sad sometimes to step back and look at the state we are in.

There are Many dedicated Teachers out there. But they are fighting an Losing, Uphill Battle.

Never quite understood how we can send Billions of Dollars to Foreign Countries but every year Our education system has to be cut.

But I guess that is more of a topic for the "Outside" in its own thread.

 

[AlchemI]

I think your starting to understand just how Difficult obtaining Meaningful results are from a clinical trial. Any Clinical Trial. No matter who the Funder is or perhaps for a Desired Result.

The Best way is to just "Fudge" the data until you get the Results You Want.

It's a Time Honored Technique.

A fellow skeptic . You aren't an Aussie by any chance...We tend to have it in our DNA lol - I'm working on being an optimist though, much healthier...

 

[AlchemI]

Sadly, I don't see much of that type teaching going on these days ..

And, it's always, always about the money ..

At the risk of going off topic [sorry], I hope we can do away with money one of these days, humankind would be so much more progressive without it.

 

[Carmiol]

I still think ecigs have a chance against legislation. FDA already lost i think twice a trial against ecigs, am I right? And ecigs are getting more popular every day.

I know we are going to have to fight for ecigs, but I also think in the end, we will win.

 

[zoiDman]

A fellow skeptic . You aren't an Aussie by any chance...We tend to have it in our DNA lol - I'm working on being an optimist though, much healthier...

Don't have any Aussie blood that I know of. But I could.

I was an Optimist when I was young. But after seeing what I have seen in my life, the Glass isn't Half Full. It's Empty, Cracked and about to Fall Off the Table.

 

[ozpkchris]

Studies are mostly performed to make profits..

When a company produces a new drug they spend billions on studying its effect so they can be approved by the FDA, once approved this said company owns the right to produce the said drug independently for x number of years(7- to up to 20) this means brand name medications at brand name price with no generics.
if a company was to perform a similar study on a ecig you would see a brand name ecig with brand name prices.

now if an indecently founded company studied this we could avoid the problem... but a indepent study costs big bucks and therefore needs big support... if we want a study done we need to lobby, write call and email, and demand a governmental study or similar.
but once the FDA starts to regulate anything expect a price increase... rules = money...

sorry this is my personal opinion from what i have seen I'm my healthcare experience...

the FDA is good and bad, good for our health but also bad because it takes money to be fda approved and some medications will never make money so they will never be studied or developed in our country.

My rant for the day.

 

[count dragula]

There really hasn't been time or funding for research specifically associated with e-cigs.

However; there were efforts in the '40s to use PG and other glycols as aerosol room disinfectants, so there are studies on the long term effect of PG inhalation from that era.
(e.g.: TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION)

So, if you're looking for indications for your own peace of mind, there's data out on the 'net.

But if you're looking for lower health insurance premiums because of going from smoking to vaping, ... don't hold your breath.

 

[emus]

Is cancer research organizations biggest fear a cheap cancer curing magic pill?